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Brian: Brian Lehrer on WNYC, between Afghanistan and hurricane Ida and the Cuomo scandal and transition to Kathy Hochul, one thing that's been falling out of the news that we don't want to totally ignore is the aftermath of the August 14th earthquake in Haiti. The death toll has reached more than 2200 people, which if you think about our last segment is about the same as the total number of Americans killed in the entire Afghanistan war.

More than 100,000 homes have been damaged or destroyed, according to the Associated Press. We've done several segments here on how people can help, but here's a catch, as the United States and foreign aid come rushing into the country, many people are wondering what lessons have we learned and not learned since the 2010 earthquake in Haiti, about how the outside world can make things better, or make them worse, which in some cases has happened.

Joining me now to talk about why foreign aid can sometimes exacerbate a country's problems, and who knows maybe there's even a lesson in this for the new US relationship with Afghanistan, and how a newly besieged Haiti-- Besieged, remember, by the quake and by the assassination of its president this summer. To talk about what kind of help is best is Jake Johnston, senior research associate at the Center for Economic and Policy Research, Think Tank. Jake, thanks for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Jake Johnston: Thanks for having me.

Brian: As of Sunday, I'm seeing that US military troops, under the direction of Miami-based US Southern Command, have delivered more than 265,000 pounds of relief assistance, according to the AAP. Are we getting at least this much right?

Jake: Yes. I think when you look at this earthquake, you have to understand the location where it took place, which was in Haiti, Southern Peninsula, which as compared to the 2010 earthquake in Port-au-Prince is a predominantly rural area, and one of the big challenges has been getting supplies to very hard to reach areas. Certainly, the logistical support that is allowed for some aid to reach those areas has been a positive development.

Brian: Do you have a picture of what the current relief assistance looks like? What are people on the ground receiving? Are the most impacted areas that those of us who have been following this story, despite all the other distractions, know the rural parts that were devastated by the earthquake, having difficulty receiving these relief supplies? Are they able to receive that assistance? Is it getting through?

Jake: I think it's definitely depends on location, there's still clearly a lot of problems with reaching these areas. I think what we've seen is predominantly Haitian led relief effort, it is local organizations, its community organizations, its people in these areas, who are the first responders. I think the earthquake, it's extremely difficult because these are difficult to reach areas. At the same time, I think there's a positive aspect here in terms of looking back at 2010, and some of the lessons learned, and then you saw thousands and thousands of foreign NGOs descend on Port-au-Prince and set up shop there.

Now, one difference is that it's a whole lot more challenging to do that in the south, in these rural communities. Now, one of the lessons we learned after 2010 is that aid is far more effective if you actually work with local organizations. If you buy things locally, and work with people who actually know the area, know what their communities need. This certain aspect of this because of the location, that forces for an aide to have to go through local organizations and work with that because of the geographic focus.

Brian: According to a Yahoo News article the other day, I'm sure these are widely cited stats, but this is where I happen to get them. Haiti has long had one of the world's highest levels of food insecurity. Last year, Haiti ranked 104th out of the 107 countries on the Global Hunger Index. By September, the United Nations said 4 million Haitians 42% of the population faced acute food insecurity. Can you talk a little bit about how the earthquake this month has impacted Haiti's food insecurity crisis in particular and how, in your opinion, people who want to help can best help from afar?

Jake: I think this is an excellent point, and the situation of food insecurity in general is so inherently tied to our foreign aid practices as well. I think it's important to note, as you look back, Haiti was largely self sufficient in food production a few decades ago. Aid policies have generally been focused on importing American food to Haiti. This is a policy that, over a period of many years, undermines local markets.

It actually hurts local farmers and puts them out of business and makes their livelihoods more challenging, while providing a bumper profit to American agricultural producers.

This is something that Bill Clinton actually even apologized for after 2010 earthquake saying this was good for my constituents in Arkansas, but not for the farmers in Haiti. When we look at Haiti's food insecurity and these challenges, we have to understand the role that we've played, as outsiders, as the US government, as other international donors in perpetuating that.

I think when you look today at supporting these efforts, it's important to note that there's still plenty of food available in Haiti. These things can be produced locally, they can be purchased locally and then distributed. By doing so, rather than undermining these local markets, it's having a dual effect, both providing the assistance that's necessary, but also providing livelihoods and sustainable investment into the farmers themselves, who are the ones their development will be what determines whether this over the longer term is really sustainable or not.

Brian: In fact, I learned something, maybe you can confirm it or refute it, but that I didn't know. We've covered Haiti on the show for years, according to the same Yahoo News article, Haiti was largely food self sufficient until the 1980s when, at the encouragement of the United States, it started loosening restrictions on crop imports, and lower tariffs, a subsequent flood of US sorry, of surplus us crops, put droves of Haitian farmers out of business, and contributed to investment in that sector falling off. That's a quote from this Yahoo News article. Is that consistent with the history that you understand?

Jake: Yes, that's exactly right. You had World Bank and IMF programs, going into the mid 90s, that necessitated Haiti slashing tariffs on foodstuffs, especially a very important crop, rice. You had the invasion of Miami rice to Haiti, and I think it's also important to point out some other dynamics of that, as the agricultural sector is decimated. Where do those people go? Where do they turn to for work?

Well, they go to the cities, and so the problem is with overcrowding, with haphazard construction, and things like this, which obviously was a huge factor in the magnitude of the devastation after the 2010 earthquake, but it's also very much the case in Les Cayes and Jeremie and in other cities in the south, where people have been forced to move to look for work after their crops have been decimated.

Brian: You run this thing called the Haiti Relief and Reconstruction Watch. When we discussed Haiti's recovery from the August 14th earthquake earlier this month, listeners, especially those with ties to Haiti, were concerned about where their donations and other US relief funds would go. You analyzed what happened after the 2010 earthquake. Where did that money go, and what should we learn from that?

Jake: I think this is critically important. I think the big lesson, and what I discovered looking at all of these aid flows after 2010 is most of the money flows right back to the donor country themselves. When you look at USAID, the US's big aid agency, when I analyze the hundreds of millions, probably over a billion dollars in spending, and over 90% of it goes to US-based companies and NGOs.

Nearly a majority went to just a handful of firms that are located in the Beltway in Washington, DC, Maryland, Virginia, places that are closer to my office in Washington than anywhere in Haiti. When you begin to look at where did the money go, that's where you need to start, these organizations that are taking money off the top and overhead, they're paying high salaries, they're renting expensive apartments. When we talk about going through local organizations, it's also just about an efficient use of resources.

If we're trying to spend money and spend it right, it makes a whole lot more sense to be working with local organizations. One side of that is that it's just more efficient, and the second side is that that's what's actually going to create sustainable development over the longer term. What we see in Haiti are these repeat patterns where there's a disaster and a response, and nothing happens between. Then a disaster and another response, but it's that time between. You need to use these opportunities to build that local capacity.

Brian: Listeners, we have time for a couple of phone calls for Jake Johnston from the Center for Economic and Policy Research and their Haiti Relief and Reconstruction Watch 646-435-7280. Maybe even some of you who called in over the last few weeks when we've been talking about the immediate aftermath of the earthquake. I know a number of you who are Haitian-Americans called in and talked about how you didn't want the money to go into corrupt hands, and that that's been a problem. Well, here's somebody who's looking at where the money goes that is put to good use and where the money goes that is not put to good use. What would you like to ask him, or how would you like to help us report this story? 646-435-7280. 646-435-7280 or tweet @BrianLehrer.

I'm thinking about what you've been saying and that back in 2010, after that bigger earthquake or maybe in geological terms, it wasn't bigger, but in terms of the death toll it certainly was. Your group looked at what would have cost to source the initial post earthquake food aid from Haiti domestically versus importing that food from abroad. Can you talk about what the barriers might've been to doing it that better way?

Jake: Yes, certainly. I think this is a critically important point. These aren't crazy ideas. There's broad recognition that local procurement, buying things locally, this is the more sustainable way to do it. There are legislative barriers here. USAID in terms of the U S audience, is justified in Congress and gets its budget framed is a support for US business in US jobs. That is how we generate an aid budget. What does that mean? It means that food aid has to be shipped on US vessels. Food aid has to be sourced in most cases from US firms.

These are legislative mandates that tie USAID's hands. There's two things. One is recognizing the problem, but then much more difficult is actually reforming the system. These are entrenched interests. You saw this after the 2010 earthquake where the largest for-profit development companies, which were receiving the lion's share of money after the earthquake, actually formed a lobbying entity, hired a high level democratic official who had been involved in the Obama administration and lobbied against very common sense reforms that the Obama administration had put forth at the beginning of its term.

We never saw those really reach the point that they were intended to reach. Again, so it's that system. It reminds me, I think, and a lot of folks of the developments we've seen and reminding, listening in on the conversation about Afghanistan, the military industrial complex. Our aid industry has really developed in a similar way, where it's largely been outsourced to private companies, and this is taken place alongside the global war on terror. In fact, many of the large for-profit development companies that were active in Haiti after 2010 and remains, so today really rose to prominence doing development work in Afghanistan.

Brian: Wow. For better for worse or for mix, that connection.

Jake: Yes. Well, I think that's a fair question. I think one of the things that was really concerning to those of us watching this, even at the time was these were companies that didn't have a good track record in Afghanistan. They were getting hundreds of millions of dollars for agricultural projects or things like this, the inspector general and other oversight bodies continued to find huge lapses, misspending money, misallocating money, and very few results to show for it. Yet, these are the same companies that continue to receive, tens, hundreds of millions of dollars a year in US foreign aid funds.

Brian: Few minutes left with Jake Johnston who runs the Haiti Relief and Reconstruction Watch of the Center for Economic and Policy Research and Edie in Manhattan you're on WNYC with Jake Johnson. Hello, Edie.

Edie: Hi, thanks for taking my call. Mr. Johnson, quick question are there any better actors that you could name or even say what kind they are in Haiti. I'm asking because I just had a particular interest from random giving history in Partners in Health. They say specifically that since 2010 they worked to build out their infrastructure in Haiti. They have Haiti patient partnership with doctors and staffing and emergency and crisis response in Haiti. Did they do a better job with this? Are there others like them to do?

Jake: Yes, thanks for that question. I think it's an important question. Partners in Health, which partners with a local organization, Zanmi Lasante has been one of the biggest proponents of what I've been talking about, which is working with local institutions and local governments to build that capacity. I encourage folks to go to haitiresponse.org and there on that website, there is a list of trusted organizations, both that are managed internationally and work with local partners and organizations that are active on the ground in the affected part of Haiti and in the south. That is a list of organizations that are trusted organizations that are all doing great work.

Brian: Pierre Michelle in Williamsburg, you're on WNYC. Hello Pierre Michelle.

Pierre: Hi. Can you hear me?

Brian: Hi. I can hear just fine. Yes. Hi, you're on the air.

Pierre: Okay. Well, we have a small organization in Haiti called Friends of Haiti in New York. No one knows about us because we are not that big of an organization, but we've been in Haiti since 2007. We have been able to do so much in Haiti with the help of the Andalusian government of Spain, the Southern governments of Spain. It is a situation where you are in a place, in a rural area called [unintelligible 00:15:42] is about 2,000 feet above sea level.

You're watching people telling you, "How come you are able to do so much with so little, when there are so much money poured into an area called Fonds de Verrette that was devastated in 2004 by hurricane George?" People are just amazed by the fact that they receive so much international fund and nothing was done in that time where 3,000 people died through mudslides and all of that. They always come to us and they always say, "How are you able to do all that you do with the little bit of money that you receive?"

[unintelligible 00:16:24] me because when I'm in Haiti, I noticed that after the earthquake, people came to Haiti. The international club came to Haiti and these people were flushed with money. They create a situation when the rent went up tremendously, where they had expensive cars they were driving around, and they had so much security around them. I wondered how can that money possibly could have stayed in Haiti?

Brian: Let me get an answer to your question and you put it so vividly and clearly. This is just the kind of thing that you've been reporting on Jake, right?

Jake: Yes, that's right. I think you look at those points around the money where it's being spent, the SUVs, the fancy apartments, the nice restaurants. It's important to go back and look at, well, why does so much money bypass local institutions and the Haitian government in the first place? Generally the justification provided is that, well, there's too much corruption in Haiti.

I think this is a perfect example of the perspective of Haitians where they look at that money and going to fancy SUVs and restaurants and apartments and say, "Well, that's corruption." I think it's really important for us to change our frame with how we look at this and understand that we have a role ourselves in perpetuating that corruption, and then in participating in that corruption on our own side. It's important to address that before trying to lecture anybody else on how they should be behaving.

Brian: Pierre Michelle, thank you for your call. One more thing before you go. Haiti's political situation, I would imagine, is making relief efforts more complicated right now as we've also covered on the show for people who don't follow Haiti other ways. The assassination of president Jovenel Moïse on July 7th, which remains unsolved. Now the daily beast reports in Haiti this void will most likely see a rise of powerful gang bosses, including one of the country's most notorious Jimmy Chérizier, also known as Barbecue. This is another thread of news stories that I'm seeing coming out of Haiti that the gang violence, since the earthquake and assassination, the combination of the two is rampant because there just isn't a good structure in place for legitimate authorities. I'm curious your comment on this and how you think it can best be overcome.

Jake: Yes, of course this is super important. I think you hit the nail on the head with this question of legitimacy. Again, going back to lessons from 2010 and something in the aid world that has been widely recognized is it's important to work with governments. To support the government's efforts in terms of building that local capacity. Now, of course, we're in a situation today where there's a government that doesn't have legitimacy.

A prime minister that was appointed by the assassinated president Moïse, who himself his mandate had been questioned. Many people thought his term had ended and he was illegally staying in power. There's a huge question of political legitimacy. How can you bridge that divide? I think it really speaks to the necessity of having that credible and legitimate government. What we've seen since the earthquake is pushing the politics to the side, focusing on the earthquake, but we can't separate these two things.

These are intimately linked, and they will continue to be so. Until there is a credible legitimate government, until there is something that can step into that position, it's going to be really difficult to accomplish more sustainable longer-term development with the reconstruction from the earthquake.

I think key with that is this divide over a push for elections as soon as possible, or something broader, which is being advocated by a group of more than 100 civil society organizations, including peasant organizations, the labor unions, who are working to try and put together a proposal, a path forward to more fundamentally address some of these concerns over legitimacy and government credibility.

That would involve transitional government and a significant wait in order for these reforms, including to the electoral system to take place before the holding of elections. That will be a key thing to watch in the coming weeks and months is where the international community and the donors fall down on that versus where the Haitian people are looking for things to go.

Brian: To wrap it up, because I don't want this conversation to result in people who want to donate to organizations that can genuinely help with the relief effort in Haiti or development in Haiti to feel paralyzed, and like they shouldn't give money anywhere because it's all for naught. Just repeat that website address that you mentioned before where people can go to see some of the best places to give in your opinion.

Jake: Yes, I'd recommend going to haitiresponse.org. They've got a list of trusted organizations there. I think it's extremely important point, just because a lot of the government bilateral assistance is going to the wrong places and to the wrong actors. That doesn't mean that all aid and all support is for naught. It is obviously really important to support groups that are doing good work and that are on the ground and working with local communities to achieve something.

Brian: Jake Johnston, senior research associate at the Center for Economic and Policy Research and he heads their Haiti Relief and Reconstruction Watch. Thank you so much for coming on.

Jake: Thanks for having me.

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