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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. There's a big scam coming more into view that has apparently ripped off tens of thousands of New Yorkers just in the last six months to the tune of around $20 million just in the instances that have been reported to the New York City Department of Social Services. It's a scam that drains the value from your EBT cards, Electronic Benefit Transfer cards used for SNAP benefits, food stamps, for those who don't know what it is, as you check out at the grocery store.

WNYC and Gothamist reporter Bahar Ostadan is covering this and joins us now with what we know and hopefully how to protect yourself and get the government to more effectively protect everybody. We will also hear in a few minutes in this segment from a member of the state legislature who's working on a solution. Hi, Bahar. Thanks for coming on the show.

Bahar Ostadan: Hi, Brian. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: How does this work? Someone is at checkout with a food purchase and an EBT card, and then what?

Bahar Ostadan: Pretty much, you go to the grocery store, you ring up all your items, and the cashier will tell you that your card is denied, that your balance is $0, even though you might have checked your balance that morning and seen your full $291 or whatever it is for the month. At that point, there's nothing really you can do in the moment. You have to essentially go online or call the City and report the crime, file for reimbursement. We'll talk more about this, but this happens from people installing actually physical devices onto card readers that skim off your information, your PIN number. It's hard for you to tell as you're shopping that that might be happening at your store.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Those eye-popping stats from the City's Department of Social Services that I just read on how common this has become in the last year based on claims of EBT card fraud that people have brought to them, hoping for reimbursement, 61,000 plus claims, $19 million in recovered funds just in the last six months. This is a problem that's spreading, even though they've known about it since before that?

Bahar Ostadan: That's right. The numbers you read, so these claims have almost tripled in the last year. Like you said, there's been over 61,000 New Yorkers who filed a claim of EBT fraud in the last six months. I asked police earlier this morning why they think it's gotten worse. They said they don't know, but it's something they're looking into. They did say some people may think, "Oh, are the store owners in on this? How is it possible that people are installing these sorts of devices so quickly without these shop owners knowing?"

Police say they're usually not in on it. This is something that can happen really quickly. Actually, these are devices that scammers will have specific to the make and the model of the cashier at a certain store, and it takes just even one to two seconds to snap in.

Brian Lehrer: Wow. Somebody physically snaps in a skimming device at each cashier where this then can steal your money.

Bahar Ostadan: That's right. Yes. Police say essentially someone may walk in, they might be holding something to specific to a Sony, for example. They might ask the store clerk to get something, that person walks away, and within just a couple seconds, they can snap in a plastic cover, even a camera that will log your PIN number, something that's not noticeable to the average eye, but is really effective in stealing your information.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, help us report this story and maybe help give fellow listeners some advice and let the government hear your voice too. We have Assembly Member González-Rojas standing by. Have you had money drained from your EBT card? Call and tell us what happened. 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692. Have you applied for reimbursement and been effectively and efficiently helped, or how did that process go? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Call or text for our Bahar Ostadan who is reporting this story for WNYC and Gothamist.

As we await some calls and before we bring on the assembly member, if someone listening right now has been ripped off in this way, Bahar, how can they apply for reimbursement?

Bahar Ostadan: There's a number that you can call for the City's Department of Social Services, and that's 718-557-1399. You can also go online. The Department of Social Services' website has a form that's fairly easy to fill out. The assembly member can speak more to this, but we're hearing it usually takes around 30 days to get reimbursed, and you can get reimbursed for up to two months of stolen funds.

Obviously, Brian, that makes for a really difficult month for people who rely on this money to qualify for these benefits. If you're a family of four, you have to make less than $39,000 a year. If you're a single person, to qualify, you have to make just under $19,000 a year. I think reporting it as soon as possible is your best bet.

Brian Lehrer: Right. It makes it even more diabolical. This is theft from poor people, by definition, the kinds of people who have enough food insecurity that they have SNAP benefit cards in the first place.

Bahar Ostadan: Absolutely, yes. I think a lot of times this crime is happening, people are skimming off information from regular debit cards, credit cards at the same time so it seems like, according to police, it's happening all at once, but the fact that it's targeting EBT cards has created a really, really tough fix for a lot of New Yorkers.

Brian Lehrer: Your article on Gothamist about this does have a phone number to call for the city's benefits replacement program. If you have been ripped off in this way, I'll give it now and then again at the end of the segment. 718-557-1399. That's 718-557-1399. We're talking about the shockingly common practice of stealing people's SNAP benefit value from their EBT cards with WNYC and Gothamist Bahar Ostadan. Also, joining us now is State Assembly Member Jessica González-Rojas of Queens who has introduced legislation to address the problem. Assembly Member, thanks for your attention to this and welcome to you to WNYC. Do we have the Assembly Member?

Assembly Member Jessica González-Rojas: I'm here.

Brian Lehrer: Hi. Tell us about your bill.

Assembly Member Jessica González-Rojas: Thank you for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Tell us about your bill.

Assembly Member Jessica González-Rojas: I have a bill that would get to the root of this issue. As Bahar mentioned, we're seeing some of the most vulnerable communities being targeted by this skimming practice where these devices are attached to the point-of-sale machines and they're literally stealing food out of the hungry mouths of our community members. My bill, which is A4096 in the assembly, it would require us to shift from that magnet strip cards that the EBT cards use currently to what is called an EMB chip card.

Many of us are already using this chip technology. It's when we tap it or insert the card. What it does is it decreases fraud by 87% over a five-year period, from 2015 to 2019. It has a higher amount of encryption technology, and essentially it doesn't transmit the card's real number during a transaction. That's what happens with the magnetic stripes. Instead, it generates a unique code for every purchase and sends that code to the business card reader. This is something that has a technology to address this type of skimming practices we're seeing and protect our most vulnerable New Yorkers.

Brian Lehrer: I think you just gave the answer to a question that a listener wrote in, which is, is this just a vulnerability for EBT cards or are regular debit and bank cards vulnerable as well?

Assembly Member Jessica González-Rojas: Yes, I think all cards are essentially vulnerable if you continue to use the magnetic strip. The EMV chips are, again, much more secure and has been shown to reduce fraud by nearly 90%.

I want to note that the National Supermarket Association supports this bill, so to the earlier comment about super supermarket owners or bodega owners being in on this, we know that actually the supermarket owners and the bodega owners want this addressed. These are our customers. These are our community members.

It's devastating to see somebody come with food for their family and perhaps a neighbor that they know that frequents their store to show up one day and not have any money on their card that they know was there previously. We're working alongside the supermarket association to advance this bill and we're hopeful that we can get that done this year.

Brian Lehrer: That would require contactless payment card technology. Seems like a bill that should sail through. Is there any opposition that you know of?

Assembly Member Jessica González-Rojas: It's always about dollars and cents, but think about how much money we're putting into reimbursing these vulnerable families, and how much stress these families are facing that are, again, showing up to the grocery store with money on their cards just to find out that that money was stolen. It's a very, very smart investment. In fact, on the state level, we know the federal government would reimburse us about half of the cost of upgrading that technology. It is certainly a smart investment on the state's part. We're not seeing any opposition. It's about advocating and fighting for its inclusion in the state budget this year.

Brian Lehrer: Let's hear from somebody in Jamaica, Queens, to whom I think this has happened. Assembly Member, stay with us, and Bahar, of course, stay with us. Bea in Jamaica, you're on WNYC. Thank you very much for calling in.

Bea: Thank you, Brian. I am a long-time listener first-time caller. I am the parent of an adult, an intellectually disabled son, and his food stamps were stolen back in April of last year while we were away. At first, I just thought maybe it was a delay but come to find out after calling, that someone took the money. Eventually, I did get back the money, but I had to write to my representative in Queens. That included Adrienne Adams, Jumaane Williams, and a couple of other folks.

Eventually, I did get a form that I had to complete. I also had to go online and log into some website which revealed that the food stamps were used in California at a Target in four different increments.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for describing what happened to you. I think it's helpful to everybody else who this could potentially happen to, to hear the story. Based on what happened to you, do you have any advice either on how to use your card at the store or how to approach the City for reimbursement if you are ripped off?

Bea: As far as the card, no. Immediately, I did have it deactivated. They sent me a new card, but it's the same card with a different number. Regarding reaching out to representatives, it helped doing that. I would encourage folks that did not hear anything to reach out to Adrienne Adams. Her office would be able to assist.

Brian Lehrer: Speaker of the City Council who I guess considering where you live is also your actual member of City Council. Bea, I'm sorry this happened to you, but thank you very much for sharing your experience. I think it is helpful.

Listener writes in a text message, Assembly Member, "I have bad news about the number given to report theft. They never ever pick up. I have often been calling and been on hold for two hours to no avail. It's a nightmare. Best is to go to an HRA center." Now, I know you're a state official not a city official, but do you have any experience with this to confirm or refute that complaint?

Assembly Member Jessica González-Rojas: : Yes. Brian, I first want to acknowledge the last person who spoke to us.

Brian Lehrer: Please.

Assembly Member Jessica González-Rojas: : Again, these are the kind of stories we hear all the time, and it's just heartbreaking. I know in my district, and she was in Queens also, I think you said Jamaica, my district in Astoria and Woodside, and places where we have NYCHA developments and low-income families, that is where we're seeing some of the highest rates of SNAP skimming, and it's really, really unfortunate. It's something very personal to me as an advocate for my community, and it's just heart-wrenching to continue to hear these stories.

In terms of the question that came up, yes, I share your frustration. Again, I'm a state representative and I have pressured the mayor about the lack of staffing in some of these social service agencies, the long hold times, the lack of response. It is unconscionable that we haven't fully staffed our agencies to make sure that we can quickly address these challenges. That's something that, at the state level, we're putting pressure on the City.

However, it is important that you do make the calls, you do fill out the forms. I would add too, to please let your state representative know. Every person has a state assemblymember and a state senator. They should both be aware that this has happened. They can also help facilitate that.

I personally have held clinics at senior centers and community centers around my district in partnership with HRA so that people can come in person and get their cases addressed on-site. That was very important to me to make sure we're as accessible as possible but again, the number that you shared earlier, I want to repeat that, which is 718-557-1399, which is the Department of Social Services, but please, please let your state assemblymember, state senator know. They can also be your advocates and perhaps are hosting clinics as well like I have done, and will continue to do so.

Brian Lehrer: Bahar, listener asks in a text message, "Can a consumer tell if the EBT reader has been tampered with? Can one see the device that's been installed?"

Bahar: It's really hard to know, Brian, and to whoever wrote in. It really depends on the situation. If you look up photos online, even in Google, devices installed on card readers for skimming off money, sometimes there's an exact size, color, brand match that makes it almost impossible to see. Some tips that police have said, told me, are when you're typing in your PIN number as you're purchasing something, just like you might at an ATM machine, just use your hand to cover as you're typing in your PIN number. Go to places that you trust and go to frequently and haven't had an issue in the past in hopes that you're not going to a place that is new and you may not know what the deal is with their card reader there.

Brian Lehrer: Assembly Member, listener asks this question in a text, "The state should also require stores individually to scan all purchase items and they show up that way on the receipt. This will cut down on fraud by making it known what the money was spent on." That's a suggestion not a question, but can stores do that in that way and would that prevent this? It would obviously take more time at checkout, but would that be a hedge against this scam?

Assembly Member Jessica González-Rojas: : I worked in a grocery store many, many moons ago, and I remember scanning all items that had to be purchased so I'm not totally sure what they're referring to. I think the important thing for us is to address the root cause of this issue. The root cause is that these magnetic strips are very vulnerable to these scamming devices and skimming devices and we have to fix that device and make sure that the cards are equipped with the latest technology to protect all our community members from this type of fraud.

Brian Lehrer: Bahar, I'm thinking about the caller who said she lives in Queens and this happened to her son, and then their EBT number was used at a Target store in California four times. Even though these devices have to be installed locally by a person who physically places them at the cashier without the cashier's knowledge, is this an organized crime ring, apparently, or is it a lot of individuals?

Bahar: It's a great question and I'm glad you brought that up. What Bea, I don't know if you're still listening from Jamaica, Queen, said about their family's card being used across state lines is actually something that's very common. According to police, yes, there are people locally who are installing these physical devices. They may be doing it on a more individual crime basis, but there are also more organized groups, according to the NYPD, that do organize this sort of thing from out of state.

All the time, we'll hear people say -- usually it's something like someone lives in Jamaica, Queens and their card is used in the Bronx at a store that they've never been to, but often it can be as far away as across the country. Part of the way that that happens is in some cases, a scammer may steal your PIN number, your account information, and physically duplicate and print that on a blank card that they have that then can be used theoretically anywhere.

Brian Lehrer: Richard in Brooklyn has a story I think. Richard, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Richard: Hello. About a month and a half ago, I was scammed. My benefits were out that day, so I called to find out how much I had. I should have had $285 and there was nothing. I immediately went over to a center about five blocks away, and I got in there and told them, and there was no surprise from them that something like this had happened. Luckily for me--

Brian Lehrer: Well, I'm not surprised. Oh, go ahead finish the story. Go ahead.

Richard: That's the big thing. Luckily, I'm an elderly, I'm over 70, person and I had $285,000 in the card and I was able to survive for a month. What if I was a family of four or a family of six, depending on that money for benefits? I asked what they do with people. They just give people a list of where there are food banks.

Brian Lehrer: They also do reimburse people. They have reimbursed millions of dollars, according to Bahar's reporting. Did you ask for that?

Richard: Oh, yes. I filled out the form and everything like that, and they challenged me and I was not reimbursed.

Brian Lehrer: Wow. All right. Thank you for that unfortunate story and of course, as we established, even when they do reimburse, that can take a month. If you're somebody who's getting your food from food stamps, what do you do during that month? Here, we have to end it except assembly member just very, very briefly. If people care about this issue and want to make their voice heard now in state legislature budget season between now and the end and next month, how can they do that to get this new card technology requirement included in the budget?

Assembly Member Jessica González-Rojas: I would certainly call your member of your state assembly and state senate and call the governor's office. The governor needs to hear these heart-wrenching stories to make sure that we're putting this funding in the budget. Again, it's a small amount of money to upgrade these systems because the federal government will cover half the cost of it.

Also, we need to address the cuts that the mayor is putting forward to cut our social services agencies that are the frontline of workers that help these constituents. I'm so sad to hear that person did not get their benefits reimbursed. That's really deeply unfortunate because everyone should make sure that they have their food on their table. It's really critical that we're making the investments at the state level, at the city level to make sure that everyone across our state can eat and survive and thrive in our state. Please call your member, your state assembly member, your state senator, call the governor's office, share these stories. We need this pass this year so we can upgrade this technology and continue to work with our federal government to make sure that these programs are adequately funded and secure.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, now you know, if you aren't already a victim yourself or know someone who was, about the shockingly common practice of stealing people's snap benefit value from their EBT cards, we thank New York State Assembly Member Jessica González-Rojas of Queens Assembly member. Thank you very much.

Jessica González-Rojas: Thank you so much.

Brian Lehrer: WNYC's Bahar Ostadan. See her full article on this, on Gothamist Bahar. Thank you. Of course.

Bahar Ostadan: Thanks Brian.

Brian Lehrer: That number again, to report this kind of fraud and try to get money back from the benefits replacement program of New York City. If this happened to you, is 718-557-1399. 718-557-1399.

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