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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now, we wrap up our membership drive series about hobbies, and we wrap it up with a game, Mahjong. It's a game that made its way from China to the United States along some different pathways. We'll hear about that with my guest, David Bresnick. He's the president of the US Professional Mahjong League and a founder of the Mahjong event space, Sparrow's Nest Studio in Manhattan, where you can play Mahjong like your grandmother taught you or learn a new version of the game. David, thanks for coming on. Welcome.

David Bresnick: Oh, it's my pleasure to be here.

Brian Lehrer: Okay. First, pronouncer, Mahjong, or Mahjong.

David Bresnick: Generally speaking, Mahjong. When the game was brought to America, the phrase Mahjongg, M-A-H-J-O-N-G-G was actually copyrighted, but usually, Mahjong is how it ends up being pronounced.

Brian Lehrer: I've seen it described as a card game except with tiles, correct?

David Bresnick: Yes, fundamentally, the game uses a lot of card game concepts, but instead of playing cards, you're manipulating these larger tiles that are very pleasant to handle.

Brian Lehrer: I see there are three main types of Mahjong in the US. Chinese, where it started, and that version came with immigrants from China, or Taiwan, or Hong Kong. American, which is probably what I've seen my mother play, or Japanese. What's the difference?

David Bresnick: The difference mostly has to do with rule set. The Chinese Mahjong family encompasses a lot of games all throughout Asia that, you're right, came to America with immigrants. Then in around 1920, a man named Babcock moved from China back to America and incorporated popular American card game rules. That was the beginning of American Mahjong, which still remains wildly popular, was still very endemic within the Jewish community and a classic game here in America. Japanese Mahjong arrived in Japan around 1920 as well, and was shaped by rules considerations in Japan, but has really been exported from Japan over the past 20 or 30 years, has become a lot more popular in America and worldwide.

Brian Lehrer: Is there a rivalry between styles of play?

David Bresnick: I wouldn't quite say a direct rivalry. I'd say most people who play Mahjong have a style they prefer, but I wouldn't say there's a direct competition.

Brian Lehrer: How do people pick which version to play, and at the Sparrow's Nest Studio in Manhattan where you can play Mahjong, do you have one or do you have all?

David Bresnick: In terms of how you settle on a on a style, it's going to be a couple things. Some people already have a family or cultural connection to a type of Mahjong that is the one that they prefer, which is great. Some people just try them all out and end up picking the rule set that has the right feel for them, whether they want something fast and aggressive, whether they want something conservative and strategic, what suits them the best. At Sparrow's Nest, we have the equipment needed to play any type of Mahjong. Anyone looking to play Mahjong could come on by and we have automatic tables that can deal Chinese Mahjong, Japanese Mahjong, and even American Mahjong.

Brian Lehrer: Is there online Mahjong if people want to get started from their homes?

David Bresnick: There are some online clients. I'm a bit more familiar with the Japanese Mahjong online clients. The challenge with those for getting started is that many of them have a fairly strict timer. The people who play online usually want to play pretty quickly. They're pretty experienced. When you're brand new, it can be a little hard to be given a very short amount of time to make those decisions.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, maybe I should have asked you this first. What's the object of the game?

David Bresnick: [laughs] Mahjong is a game, if I had to describe it, I'd describe it as a cross between gin rummy and poker. You have a hand of tiles, and on your turn, you're going to draw a new tile and you're either going to say, "Well, this tile I drew helps my hand get closer to the shape I want it to be in, so I'm going to keep it and discard a tile I already have," or, "It doesn't help me, I'm going to throw away the tile I just got." Then as you discard tiles, other people might grab those tiles to advance their hands and get closer to the shape they're trying to build until someone eventually accomplishes it. That's the winner of the hand.

Brian Lehrer: What's the story with gambling in Mahjong? That's a thing, right?

David Bresnick: It is a thing. It is a long-term thing. The game started and grew as a gambling game. In America as well, although, usually, I think people in America who gamble on and they're playing very, very low stakes, like pennies or nickels. For us, we play it as a skill game. We do not gamble. There's no gambling involved in anything we do, but it does definitely have a history that people would gamble on the game, for sure.

Brian Lehrer: In our last 30 seconds, are there any superstitions around playing Mahjong? I'm told that there are.

David Bresnick: Oh, a lot of people have their own sets of superstitions about which tiles are going to come to them and which tiles they should be throwing away from them about the order in which they draw the tiles from the wall, about how the dice get rolled for who breaks wall and who draws first. There's a lot of things people think will bring luck to them, and people like to hold onto those little fancies.

Brian Lehrer: There we leave it with David Bresnick, the president of the US Professional Mahjong League. By the way, professional league, do they get paid?

David Bresnick: Professional, it's something I hear a lot. Professional, I often feel like more refers to the attitude as opposed to it being a literal profession.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, and he's founder of the Mahjong event space, Sparrow's Nest Studio in Manhattan. Thank you so much. This was really fun.

David Bresnick: Again, thanks so much for having me.

[00:05:16] [END OF AUDIO]

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