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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer in WNYC. With us now, Donna Brazile, former chair of the Democratic National Committee and very relevant to this moment as she was Al Gore's campaign manager in the year 2000, the year of the contested presidential election, Bush versus Gore. Maybe Donna Brazile's experience can help prepare us for what Claire Malone was referring to in the last segment might be coming on November 3rd and possibly beyond. Donna is also a Fox News contributor these days as one of their democratic leaning voices. Donna, always great to have you on. I know you're doing a lot so thanks for squeezing us in.

Donna Brazile: Thank you so much. I'm still down here in Nashville, 20 years after that tumultuous campaign season, so it's good to be back. I spent almost two years of my life as a resident here in Davidson County.

Brian Lehrer: Nashville where the debate was last night. Let's start with a couple of things from last night's debate. They're really different on how much to let the Coronavirus run through society. I don't think we can emphasize that too much. Here is Trump not saying the words, "herd immunity approach", but in effect, staking out that turf.

Donald Trump: We're learning to live with it, we have no choice. We can't lock ourselves up in a basement like Joe does.

Brian Lehrer: A little of Joe Biden's response.

Joe Biden: You folks home will have an empty chair at the kitchen table this morning, that man or wife going to bed tonight and reaching over to try to touch, out of habit, where the wife or husband was, is gone. Learning to live with it, come on. We're dying with it.

Brian Lehrer: Donna, what did you make of their Coronavirus exchanges and the implications for how different this next year would be?

Donna Brazile: First of all, I think that is the number one issue facing American voters this year. I thought the president once again was on defense. He struggled to provide us with any plan, any action plan. The fact that he said that we're turning a corner and then mentioned states like Florida where just yesterday we saw a huge spike in cases, here in Tennessee, spike in cases all across the country. For those of us looking to have some real sharp closing arguments, this debate was more substantive, less superficial, and I thought the vice president had the upper hand in terms of speaking directly to his voters, speaking to that small slice of voters who are still undecided. I give an advantage to Biden only because the bar was so low for Donald Trump but he was able to get over the bar. I don't know if that will provide him with more voters, but it just allows him to show up in his message for the base, but the vice-president has already proven that he can talk to more than just the democratic base.

Brian Lehrer: Here's another one, Trump hit Biden for being a career politician in many of his positions of power over the years , and we still have all these problems nonetheless. Here's some of that. I think we have this Trump clip, let's see.

Kristen Welker: -in ten seconds.

Donald Trump: That's a typical technical political statement, "Let's get off this China thing," and then he looks, the family around the table every day. Just a typical politician when I see that. I'm not a typical politician, that's why I got elected.

Kristen Welker: Let's talk about North Korea now.

Brian Lehrer: I'm not a typical politician, that's why I got elected. Trump hit Biden for probably caving to Bernie Sanders's agenda of ending people's private insurance plans with a Medicare for all approach. Here's Biden's response to that.

Joe Biden: He thinks he's running against somebody else, he's running against Joe Biden. I beat all those other people because I disagreed with them. Joe Biden, he's running against.

Brian Lehrer: Is that an essential question for the voters? Is this a paradox for Biden that you have to acknowledge? That on the progressive side it's like, do you trust Biden to be innovative after 47 years in the Democratic establishment? On the conservative side, do you trust him not to cave to the rising progressive momentum in the base?

Donna Brazile: Great question. First of all, I can go ahead and confess since, like Joe Biden, I'm Catholic. I've known Joe Biden for over 30 of those 47 years, and I can tell you as someone who's worked on seven presidential campaigns, 56 congressional, 19 state and local campaigns, it's about public service. Joe Biden did not become rich until he left public office, until he was able to write a book, until he was able to go out and give paid public lectures and raise money for his cancer institute.

Joe Biden is not the average politician, he is the public servant who has devoted his life to lifting up others. I was there when Joe Biden had to make that decision as to whether or not he would run versus helping to take care of his family after Beau's death. I was there when I saw Joe Biden struggle once again to run in a primary with over 25 people, half of them, perhaps they were not even of age when he was so-called in power in the United States Senate.

Here's the thing I know about Joe Biden is that he will fight for everyone, that he will provide for everyone, but he will have a plan and strategy. He is not afraid to utilize the best of the best, meaning he will bring in scientists, doctors, economists and people who can help us get back on our feet and make a way out of no way. Brian, I'm a Democrat, I'm 60 years old, but I love the fact that this party has been energized by a new generation of Americans, a new generation of activists, a new generation of thinkers.

Joe Biden said day one, he would be a transitional figure. We're going to allow people from all walks of life to have a part of the future of this country. A part of that can embrace John Kasich. A part of that can embrace AOC, or as President Trump referred to AOC plus three. A part of that can embrace, in my home state of Louisiana, a pro-life, pro-gun Democrat, but who expanded Medicaid for the poor. We have what I call a bigger table and a bigger opportunity to shape the future of this country, not try to take it to a bygone era.

Brian Lehrer: One more exchange before we get to your lessons from Bush versus Gore for what might be coming-

Donna Brazile: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: -starting October 3rd. The moderator, Kristen Welker, also asked them explicitly about race and racial inequality. Trump emphasized the economy growing for everyone on his watch, but he also said this.

Donald Trump: Then historically Black colleges and universities, after three years of coming to the office, I love some of those guys, they were great. They came into the office and I said, "What are you doing?" After three years I said, "Why do you keep coming back?" "Because we have no funding." I said, "You don't have to come back every year." "We have to come back." Because President Obama would never give them long-term funding and I did, 10-year long-term funding. I gave them more money than they asked for because they said, "I think you need more." I said, "The only bad part about this is I may never see you again." Because I got very friendly with them. They like me and I like them, but I saved historically Black colleges and universities.

Kristen Welker: Okay.

Brian Lehrer: As for Joe Biden, he had to answer for the 1994 Crime Bill that he was a leader on and his contribution to mass incarceration, but he emphasized starting to realize by the year 2000, the excesses of that and proposing things like drug courts for non-violent drug offenders, while he said Trump's record leaves him in no position to criticize anyone else for what they did in that era.

Joe Biden: The fact of the matter is in 2000 though, after the crime bill had been in the law for a while, this is the guy who said, "The problem with the crime bill, there's not enough people in jail." Go on my website, get the quote, the date when he said it, "Not enough people." He talked about marauding young gangs and the people who are going to maraud our cities. This is a guy who in, the Central Park, five innocent Black kids, he continued to push for making sure that they got the death penalty. None of them were guilty of the crimes they were suggested.

Brian Lehrer: Donna, we know Trump encourages white supremacist groups, we know he led the birther movement against Obama plus the things that Biden mentioned. How do you see the Trump campaign as having done all of that and doing all that presently while trying to appeal to Black voters where the Republican party has mostly just looked away for so long?

Donna Brazile: I find it interesting that in all three debates, the two presidential, as well as the vice-presidential debate, we had what I call a drive-by conversation on race. The problem when you structure it is that we act as if race is about dealing with certain issues or certain causes or certain slogans of groups and not with what is in the constitution, what's in the value system of the DNA equal justice under the law.

Had we not been enslaved for over 200 years? Had we not had to go through 100 years of reconstruction? Had we not have to spend decade after decade after decade dropping blood, every step along the way to get voting rights, civil rights, housing rights. We would not be having a conversation on race in America because we cannot solve problems or deal with the underlying issues of racism, systemic racism if we keep cherry-picking. A criminal justice system, that's the tip of the iceberg. You've already lost when you have not provided pre-K. You've already lost when a child grows up in poverty without health care. You've already lost if a child doesn't get education and health care.

The problem with these conversations, Brian, is that it always is framed in terms of what a white man has done for me, a Black woman, you've done nothing for me, that you didn't do for yourself. The country needs to understand that the pain is real. The pain is real. For President Trump to stand up and say, in front of a Black woman, "I've done more for you than anybody else." Who the hell are you? You did nothing for me because Doctor King did it, because Sojourner Truth and Rosa Parks did it. You didn't do nothing, but Lyndon Johnson did. You only sign the bill because the Congressional Black Caucus advanced it to you.

I get tired of those conversations. They're meandering, they're insulting, because you're not addressing one out of five Black people dying of COVID and Hispanics dying. You're not addressing those 545 children that don't have a mama or daddy. You're not addressing the millions of us that have pre-existing conditions that might lose it next year. You're not addressing my pain, you only addressing what you think I may care about. Those conversations, Brian, really disturb me, but I have to sit there on Fox News like I would sit at ABC or CNN and listen to the infiniteness, the hollowness because they're not talking to me. Who are they talking to? That's my feeling about the racial conversation.

Brian Lehrer: Wow, thank you for being so real on that. Bush v. Gore, for our generation Z listeners, Donna, people who were being born that year, what happened? With that experience, how does it make you anticipate Election Day and beyond this year?

Donna Brazile: Well, Brian, I have had so many experiences on the electoral battlefield. I have been so deeply involved. Coming back here, I can remember every hour on the hour, every hour on the hour down to hear from people saying, "I cannot cast my ballot." "Why?" "Because I don't have the right form of ID." Hearing my sister in 2020 tell me that she waited four hours in Orlando, but she voted compared to 2000 when she told me she needed multiple forms of ID and a utility bill, we have made progress, but we have not made enough progress.

We have to be patient when we count every vote. Counting the vote should not be a crisis. We felt under a lot of pressure to get the votes counted because we had deadlines.

We need to understand to get it right, we have to have integrity. We need to count every vote. We need to ensure every vote is cast. I worry about two things. Of course, the long lines and the suppression will always be there, but I worry that we will lose patience, that we will not understand that every state has different processes, every counties in some places, and every municipalities. We're going to have to get them all right, get them all counted, get the postman and the post lady to get them all in, then we're going to be patient. That's what we need to understand.

Also as campaign manager, I could still feel it in my system, "Shut it down. Shut it down. Shut it down," but we were just trying to get the votes counted. I'll never forget because I was much younger. I said, "I knew how to get out the vote. I never thought I had to count them." Well, now I figured out, we got to count them. Brian, one last thing. Foreign interference in our election system is no joke. Having foreign operators in our systems will destroy our democracy. It will pit us against each other, and it will sow discord on those late nights and early mornings that we're still counting votes. I have a lot to say as you can imagine. [laughs]

Brian Lehrer: Absolutely. That's why we brought you on. Donna, one last thing for me because at the end of that, and we've just got a minute left, but in December 2000, more than a month after Election Day when the Supreme Court ruled, Al gore stood up, conceded, and acknowledged that George W. Bush is the president-elect of the United States. Can you take us behind the scenes in the run-up to that moment? I remember it as a really striking affirm affirmation of American democracy and the peaceful transfer of power.

Donna Brazile: I had an opportunity to share emails with Vice President Gore yesterday, text messages because I'm here, and because of COVID I can't go and see him and give him a hug. I know him very well. I remember, here I was and he called me and because every day was different, every moment was different, he said, "The Supreme Court has just ruled." He was at the Vice President's mansion. I had gone back to the DNC because, of course, that was our war room Central, whatever you want to call it, command center. We had closed down the operation in Nashville, so I had moved back to DC.

I say, "Yes, sir. I'm getting it now over the fax machine." Back then we had fax machines. Fax machines, and then we were still printing, but it was all slow. As I read it, I knew exactly what had happened, that they had decided based on using old Civil War amendments to stop the vote. The Vice President called me and said, "Shut it down." Of course, being an activist I said, "What? Wait. Wait a minute. We're not going to let this go down, right?" He said, "Donna, the Supreme Court has decided, you have to shut it down." I did. I've always believed we did the right thing. It was not easy, but the Vice President of the United States told me to shut it down and I had the responsibility to shut it down.

Brian Lehrer: An important lesson from history for what we might be about to confront beginning in a few days. Donna Brazile, always a pleasure have you on. It was special this morning. Thank you very much.

Donna Brazile: Thank you and God bless you and your listeners. Bye-bye.

Brian Lehrer: Bye.

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