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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer, on WNYC. Now, how to talk about people who can get pregnant. I'm sure some of your eyes are already rolling at just how I phrase that. Some people are probably thinking, "Just say women, Brian." That's what we're going to talk about. Our words of choice when it comes to reproductive rights and how since the Dobbs decision, the increased use of the phrase pregnant people and similar gender inclusive language has set off lots of different reactions.

People may be seeing this new vocabulary a lot in media, this show included because our job is to be accurate and after all while abortion issues affect the lives of many many women. The flip side is not all women can or will ever get pregnant for a variety of reasons. Also, children sometimes get pregnant. Like the case of the 10-year-old girl we've talked about. The 10-year-old child not yet a woman or an adult of any kind who had to travel to Indiana to get an abortion after being raped in Ohio.

Whether it makes you personally uncomfortable or not there are also trans-men, non-binary people, and intersex people who exist who can get pregnant and are thus directly affected by abortion laws. How can we speak about reproductive issues so that we aren't leaving anyone out? Here to unpack some of this with me is Kate Manne, writer and philosopher at Cornell author of the books Down Girl: The Logic Of Misogyny and Entitled: How Male Privilege Hurts Women. Professor Manne, thanks so much for being here. Welcome to WNYC.

Kate Manne: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take your calls. What do you say now? Have you been happy to hear and see more inclusive language when it comes to reproduction and reproductive rights? If you're confused by it you can call too or upset by it, can you put your finger on why? We're going to play, what I consider really offensive clip of Senator Josh Hawley of Missouri how he brought it up at a hearing the other day. If you are confused or uncomfortable with it maybe call and we'll have a therapy session. Tell us why. 212-433 WNYC, 433-9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer.

Kate Manne, what do you say, and when do you say it?

Kate Manne: As far as I'm concerned this issue is relatively simple. I do think that abortion bans primarily target women, primarily cis women, but I absolutely think that we can recognize in a more inclusive choice of language that these bans victimize a broader class of people. They also victimize cis girls, trans boys and men who can get pregnant, some non-binary folks, some intersex folks. To me, it isn't difficult to recognize that there are people beyond the class of cis women who can get pregnant.

I also think the language is more accurate as you mentioned a moment ago in reflecting the fact that not all cis women can get pregnant by the same token. There are women who are prior to that age of being able to get pregnant. Although pregnancy can of course occur to cis girls that are relatively young age. There are postmenopausal women and women who have fertility issues. To me a more inclusive choice of language is also just more accurate with respect to who is victimized by these abortion bans.

Brian Lehrer: Let me play that clip I mentioned that shows to my ears just how much hostility there is in some quarters of the political right even in very high level places like the US Senate and how openly people feel comfortable expressing what really comes down to disdain for any trans people. This is Republican Senator and possible presidential hopeful Josh Hawley, Republican from Missouri questioning UC Berkeley Law Professor Khiara Bridges during a judiciary committee hearing on July 12th

Josh Hawley: Professor Bridges, you said several times, you've used a phrase I want to make sure I understand what you mean by it. You've referred to people with a capacity for pregnancy, would that be women?

Khiara Bridges: Cis women have the capacity for pregnancy, many cis women do not have the capacity for pregnancy. There are also trans men who are capable of pregnancy as well as non-binary people who are capable of pregnancy.

Josh Hawley: This isn't really a women's rights issue, it's a--

Khiara Bridges: We should recognize that this impacts women while also recognizing that it impacts other groups. Those things are not mutually exclusive, Senator Hawley.

Josh Hawley: Oh so your view is that the core of this right then is about what?

Khiara Bridges: I want to recognize that your line of questioning is transphobic and it opens up trans-people to violence by not recognizing that.

Brian Lehrer: UC Berkeley, law professor Khiara Bridges with Republican Senator Josh Hawley of Missouri just the other day in a Senate hearing. Wow, Kate he really doesn't care. I don't expect you to have the answer to this question but, why would he even ask the question that he asked and why would that attitude of trying to de-legitimize the very existence of trans men?

Kate Manne: Yes, we are finding just an enormous amount of hostility, contempt, disdain, and just the sheer denial of the existence of trans men, many of whom can get pregnant. Professor Bridges was just being completely accurate and telling it like it is in terms of who has the capacity for pregnancy and is thus affected by these draconian laws which by the way Josh Hawley is a big big fan of Dobbs.

He is a big fan of banning abortion. His concern, his foe concern with women's rights in that line of questioning was also just entirely about faith argument. I think one thing that we are seeing happening on the right in particular in this country is a massive resistance to not so much what I'd call political correctness but political correction. Some people will just not update their language to be more accurate and inclusive of the many people who can get pregnant reflecting the identities, reflecting the bodies of the diverse range of people who are affected by anti-abortion laws such as the ones that Hawley is absolutely an advocate for.

Brian Lehrer: There does seem to be very different from Josh Hawley sometimes a feminist objection. I know you addressed this in a recent sub stack piece that you wrote referring to New York Times colonist Pamela Paul who wrote the far right and the far left have found the one thing they can agree on women don't count, even the word women has become verboten previously a commonly understood term for half the world's population.

The word had a specific meaning tied to genetics, biology, history, politics, and culture no longer in its place or realty terms like pregnant people, menstruaters, and bodies with vaginas. You responded to that piece and I think we have to acknowledge Pamela Paul is not coming from the same place as Josh Hawley right?

Kate Manne: Sure. I think there are things that someone like Paul has in common with Hawley. There can be actually a disturbing alliance between so-called trans exclusive feminists who I actually don't think deserve the label feminist and people on the right but I do think there is just also a misunderstanding evident in Paul's column and the like. I'm thinking of a tweet by Bette Midler.

There seems to be this idea that people like me who are trans inclusive feminists are proposing replacing the word women with something else and that's not it at all. The subtitle of my last book is you mentioned an opening was, How Male Privilege Hurts Women. By that I meant cis women and trans women, I'm perfectly happy to talk about womanhood as a category, I myself identify as a woman, I happen to be a cis woman.

I also recognize that my trans sisters are affected by much of the same misogyny which in my view targets women. We can talk about women for sure and we can also talk about a broader class of persons who was affected when it comes to laws that reduce or indeed completely decimate the autonomy of pregnant people.

Brian Lehrer: Joan in Brooklyn. You're on WNYC. Hi, Joan.

Joan: Oh, okay. Great. All right I'm glad to be able to weigh in on this because I think it's a very important question. I think the heart of it is understanding what the attacks on birth control and abortion-rights have always been about. These attacks are about furthering the subjugation of women and it's really important for people to understand that and talk about that.

To be clear, I want to emphasize, I absolutely think that trans people have the right to do some healthcare. I think the same forces who are going after and are attacking abortion rights also there's a whole campaign against trans people that has to be thought. At the same time, the attacks on abortion rights are not aimed at trans men. They're aimed at forcing women to be enslaved to patriarchal male authority, whether it comes down from the husbands, fathers, the church, or the state.

Brain Lehrer: Right. Kate, you want to engage with Joan?

Kate Manne: Yes, sure. Joan, I actually agree that abortion bans are about trying to control and punish women for taking charge of their own fertility among other things. Under a patriarchy we're perceived as owing our bodies, our minds, our labor, especially our reproductive labor to men and "their children" within a white supremacist, cis-normative hetero patriarchy.

I agree with you that the abortion bans that we are seeing such draconian laws being implemented around the country are targeting women. I think we can recognize that they also affect and victimize trans boys and men, intersex people, non-binary people who can get pregnant and of course, cis girls who must not be left out of this conversation. I see no conflict between recognizing that anti-abortion activism has always been about misogyny, has always been about policing and controlling women, but it affects a broader class of persons.

Joan: The problem however-- It's true what you're saying but when you're talking about language, if you're not centering what the essential question is when we're talking about the attacks and abortion rights, and you're not bringing to the fore that forced motherhood is a form of female enslavement, it's not just forced parenthood, it's about forced motherhood. That has to be at the heart of what this fight is or you're disarming people. If it's simply bodily autonomy in the abstract, people have the right to my body, my choice.

Brain Lehrer: Joan. Thank you very much. I'm going to take another caller. We have limited time. Take another call to further this conversation, I think. Monique in Terrytown, you're on WNYC with Kate Manne. Hi, Monique.

Monique: Hi, I'm an older person. For me, what is seen as inclusive, I find to be confusing, because there seems to be like this conflation of biology and psychology and sociology and what culture and gender. I would just recommend going back down to the science. We've got XX and XY, and biologically, you call that female and male. You need both gamete to create life. It's all about the birds and the bees.

Brain Lehrer: That's how people were born.

Monique: I recognize that there are intersex folks and they represent like 1.7% of our population and overwhelmingly they're infertile. My question would be, can we have just say pregnant females? That would include dysphoric females, cis females, lesbian females, all kinds of females, but essentially biologically, they are female.

Brain Lehrer: Monique, thank you very much. If I can sum up Kate, what I think I'm hearing from Monique and what I'm seeing on the board from other callers that we're not going to have time to put on the air among people who are not explicitly hostile to trans and intersex people. It's, can't there be a language that centers women because of misogyny and the overwhelming number of people who are affected by abortion bans and things like that are women, language that centers women and still includes others, but that doesn't just take women out of the common parlance? You know what I mean?

Kate Manne: Yes. I think there are contexts in which it's appropriate to talk about pregnant women and other people who can get pregnant. I think that can be fine under certain circumstances, but in terms of who to center here, I really think, again, we need to draw a very clear distinction between who is the target, who does Josh Hawley have in mind when he is advocating for abortion bans and celebrating the Dobbs decision as this watershed moment as he called it publicly.

He is. He and his [unintelligible 00:14:52] are wanting to target cis women and enforce pregnancy amongst cis women. However, we can also be precise and inclusive and center all of the bodies that are affected by these draconian abortion laws. Unfortunately, there isn't a simple, neat way of referring to this class. It is a varied and diverse class of bodies who can get pregnant. Talking about trans men as biological females is transphobic. It is disrespectful. It is a way of talking that it will induce gender dysphoria in many people in that population. Why not call these people what they are, which is trans men who can get pregnant. I think that's just accurate.

Brain Lehrer: Let me slip in one more call just real quick. We're almost out of time, but because Evangeline is on the front lines in Brooklyn as a birth worker. Evangeline, you want to share a little bit of your experience, right? We've got 20 seconds for you.

Evangeline: Yes. Trans people, non-binary people, and intersex people have been giving birth since the beginning of time and they will continue to, it is time for us to also center them in the conversation. Any person with a uterus is someone affected by these abortion bans.

Brain Lehrer: You're saying you're seeing more of your patients coming from all kind of these groups?

Evangeline: Yes, absolutely. Especially in New York City, we see lots of diverse families and lots of trans men who are fathers who are also giving birth and we're able to support them. It's long past time for us to be supporting these families.

Brain Lehrer: Evangeline, thank you. You get the last word as we also thank our guest, Kate Manne writer and philosopher at Cornell and author of the books Down Girl: The Logic of Misogyny and Entitled: How Male Privilege Hurts Women. Thank you so much for engaging in this.

Kate Manne: Thanks so much, Brian. Great to be here.

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