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Arun Venugopal: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Arun Venugopal from the WNYC and Gothamist newsroom. In a little while we'll be discussing the Supreme Court's latest decisions and a term of profound consequence. The term is wrapping up today and we'll be discussing the ramifications with a couple legal experts, but for now I'd like to consider a related development, the growing trend, it seems, of Americans who are up and leaving the country or at least giving it serious thought, in part because of what's coming out of Supreme Court and everything else that's happening in the US.

Billie Joe Armstrong, the lead singer of Green Day announced at a concert in London that he was renouncing his American citizenship and planned to settle down in England all because of the abortion decision from the Supreme Court.

Billie Joe Armstrong: [beep] America and [beep] I'm renouncing my citizenship. I'm [beep] coming here.

[applause]

Arun Venugopal: You could make out maybe three words of what he said. He is a rock-n-roller after all. It's not just celebrities. The website International Living, which is geared to people looking to relocate or even retire abroad, said it saw traffic swell this past weekend more than 4,000% from the previous weekend on its page titled, How to Move Out of the US. It also saw a 600% spike in traffic to its best LGBTQ+ friendly countries to retire to page. The editorial director of the site told us the increase in traffic came in the immediate wake of the Supreme Court's abortion decision and that they haven't seen a surge like that, at least not to that particular page, How to Move Out of the US, since the Capitol insurrection.

Listeners, where's your head at? Are you seriously considering leaving the US given the state of American affairs? Have you already taken the leap and feel like maybe you have some wisdom to share with the rest of us or maybe some cautionary tales? What did you find abroad that you weren't able to find here in the US? How does our nation's political chaos, not to mention mass shootings and the like, how does all of this appear from abroad? Give us a call at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692 or just tweet at us. We're @BrianLehrer. Now I suspect for some of you listening there is a feeling of, "Oh, God, not this again." I for one remember a refrain of, "If George W. Bush gets elected, I swear, I'm leaving for Canada," back in the early 2000s. I don't think that trend really materialized.

I get it if you think this is some sort of parlor game that Americans play every few years. Alternately, perhaps you've considered moving abroad, but decided against it because you've recommitted yourself to bettering this country, sticking it out, fighting the good fight. If so, we want to hear from you as well. Once again, that's 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692. Helping us think through all of this is Laura Begley Bloom, senior contributor to Forbes and a travel expert. Her latest column, which is going up today, she addresses this trend and why people are looking to move abroad, why they're moving and how we can actually gauge this is not just some fanciful conversation, but it's actually a serious steps that people are taking.

We're also joined by Jessica Drucker, a consultant who helps folks move abroad, specifically LGBTQ folk move abroad, and she's the author of, How To Move Abroad and Why It's the Best Thing You'll Do. Laura, let's start with you. This phenomenon might give new meaning to the phrase voting with their feet. Are Americans leaving the US?

Laura Begley Bloom: I think we've seen a huge surge in this. It's been leading up to this in fact. It's been going on for a few years now. It's something I've been reporting on quite extensively, people wanting to go to other places. There are so many reasons that are driving people. There's the cost of living in the United States and looking at other countries around the world where it's much cheaper. Obviously, politics has had a huge impact. In the 2016 election there were so many people looking at moving to Canada that they actually crashed the Canadian immigration site. New Zealand was also attracting tons of people at the time.

I just think it keeps happening more and more and certainly with the pandemic, a lot of people are working remotely so they started moving. We're really seeing a huge surge now. It's not brand new. It's something that's been percolating and I think it's really happening.

Arun Venugopal: Jessica, you have, I guess, a strong feeling about this as the author of, How To Move Abroad and Why It's the Best Thing You'll Do. Briefly, what is the case for going abroad?

Jessica Drucker: I think even before all of this, that came out this past weekend, the rise in school shootings and things that are motivating people right now, I think just generally speaking, moving abroad is an extremely enlightening experience, no matter the reason that you go. If it's to retire abroad than it's maybe to have a peaceful winter season, but there are so many benefits to living abroad and that's why I went with the lengthy book title was because I really do think it's the best thing you'll do. You open your own mind, of course, you experience new things, life becomes what I like to call a 3D adventure.

Sometimes in your life, you get into this daily rut. You don't even notice things as you drive by them because you drive by every day, for example. When you do live abroad, you really experience everything from the water they serve, the cup they serve it in, the type of things that they use. Literally every single part of your day can become 3D and it just brings such an added benefit to your life. Then, of course, the ripple effects of Americans living abroad, returning home and sharing that intercultural knowledge, I feel really only benefits American society as well.

Arun Venugopal: Now, I mentioned the events of January 6th and how, at least according to International Living, prompted a lot of people to start searching, even if it's just searching. Did you get that impression that these major once in a lifetime moments were really scaring people away from the US, scaring Americans if you will?

Laura Begley Bloom: I think these big events definitely scare people. I think it's a wake up call to people looking around them and saying, "Hey, maybe life could be better somewhere else." I did a story for Forbes a couple of years ago on people buying second passports. It's really interesting because there are some places where it's very expensive and some places where it's not that expensive and you can even get a passport just by living there for a few years. It went crazy viral and people were really interested in that idea of being able to have that ability and that freedom to be able to go somewhere else, so it's real.

Arun Venugopal: Let's go to our callers. Is it Tara from Merrick, Long Island or Tera? Sorry if I mispronounced your name.

Tara: Hi, there. Yes, this is Tara and I'm from Merrick, Long Island.

Arun Venugopal: Tara, what's your plan?

Tara: We don't have a plan yet, but I had a question on that it may be the grass is greener on the other side. We've been looking at Italy. We've been talking about just getting out of this country, started back when Trump was elected. I'm raising a young son and I don't want him as an example. As much as I love my upbringing, I've had a very lucky life, but the more that is happening and especially in the last month or so, we're really seriously considering-- I'm looking at Italy. My family is from Italy. I have friends that have moved to Italy. Again, I just feel it's going to take a lot of research because I'm concerned that we'll move somewhere else and find ourselves dealing with the same issues.

Arun Venugopal: Jessica, maybe you can respond to that. Thank you for your call, Tara. The grass is greener thing, it must be a real thing that happens a lot. People who either go and maybe find out when they get there that there's plenty of other problems going on in other parts of world, Italy included.

Jessica Drucker: Of course. Yes, that is definitely the case. There is a little bit of the grass is always greener. There's nothing about that that isn't true. There's though things that we are worried about in the US right now you aren't going to see in Italy. You're not going to see a school shooting. You're not going to think about buying your child a bulletproof backpack. Those are not thoughts that they're having in Italian schools. While there are other issues, of course, every country has its own culture, its own society and its own set of issues, many of the things that Americans are looking to escape do not exist in other places.

For example, going into bankruptcy or worrying about paying for your healthcare, things like that. Of course, school shootings and even to a certain extent-- Italy doesn't have an amazing record for LGBTQ rights and protections, but at the same time, I think you're not going to see it being used as a political football either. Yes, of course there are going to be issues when you move. You might hate drying your clothes on a rack. You might be so annoyed that your jeans are crunchy instead of using a dryer with dryer sheets. There's definitely things that you're not going to like but for those of us, especially with kids, the benefits really seem to outweigh the cost there.

Arun Venugopal: Laura, you mentioned in your article that financial appeal is a big part of the push factor, isn't it?

Laura Begley Bloom: It is. There are places around the world where you can live for a lot less than in the United States. Places where a couple can live for $2,000 a month. A lot of times they're in developing countries and there has been some controversies surrounding that too, that people moving to places like Belize or Indonesia and being this ex-pat coming in, it's not always welcome. This idea that people are going to other places to save money has some controversy surrounding it. I've gotten some backlash with some stories that I've written about places where you can live for under $2,000 a month. The reality is that it's expensive in America, and it's a lot cheaper.

Granted the money that you're making in other places might go to taxes, but as Jessica pointed out that can help you in the long run,, because you might have healthcare built-in and other perks from that society.

Arun Venugopal: Let's take a call from Dana in Fanwood, New Jersey. Hi, Dana, what are you thinking about moving?

Dana: Hi Arun. My husband and I are seriously considering Italy. My husband is first-generation American. His mom is still an Italian citizen. Citizenship is very, I wouldn't say easy, but definitely less hurdles to jump through to do Italian citizenship for myself, my husband, and our 18-month-old daughter. The thing that's really terrifying as an anxious first-time mom is the idea of sending my daughter to school, and the fact that she is a young woman and will one day have reproductive issues, and who knows what comes down the line in terms of that after Roe v. Wade got overturned.

Arun Venugopal: When you mentioned schooling, are you talking about the basic safety issue of not knowing if there will be violence, that kind of a thing?

Dana: 100%. In regards to COVID, we've kept her home, being only now that she's just eligible for a vaccine. Postpartum anxiety has really taking a grip. Then the idea of thinking of ahead to the schools and possibly shooting and buying the bulletproof backpack and all those things, that's terrifying. America's the only country that has that problem. It's nowhere else in the entire world. It's very appealing to just get out and go.

Arun Venugopal: Thank you for your call. We're having other callers who are really taking issue with this conversation. Let's take one of those calls. Andy in Crown Heights, you're on the air. What are your feelings about this conversation?

Andy: Thanks for taking my call. You asked your first caller what their plan was. I would say that my plan is to stay and fight. If we can look at the last week, we're living in a country where fundamental rights are being stripped away from the most vulnerable people in our country. If you want to talk about who can't afford to go somewhere else, it's the pregnant person in Texas who can barely afford to get on a plane or get on a bus to go to Colorado. They can't do this. I would advocate for every progressive American to stay involved, stay where they are, stay in sight because if we all leave, it's the most vulnerable among us who are going to suffer the most.

Arun Venugopal: Thank you for calling Andy. Let's take another call who I think feels maybe similarly, that this is not really the right way to be approaching domestic problems. Rebecca, let's take your call from Brooklyn. Rebecca, you're on the air. How do you feel about this issue?

Rebecca: Similarly to your last caller really. Echoing those sentiments, but also this is a country where thousands of people, 50 people just died in a truck trying to escape violence. I think just going off of what your guest was saying about moving to Indonesia, that really affects the economy of those countries and may pull up, make it more expensive for people who are already living there in dire straits. I think it's really important to think about your effect on a nation and on a community where you're moving and also the effect on the community that you're leaving.

Arun Venugopal: Thanks so much for your call, Rebecca. I think certainly aware of the concerns some people have that this is a privileged conversation, that people have to stick it out. Someone who has taken a different approach to this is the founder of Master Your Move Abroad, MYMA, who is a Black woman and who is quoted in Vogue UK, is saying that as a Black woman who went through the slog of corporate life, she got tired of wondering if she'd be safe at home in her bed, given the number of people who are Black and who have faced violence on the streets or even at home. She also phrased this as an issue of recovering from intergenerational trauma. That's just a different viewpoint.

We have a tweet, Rebecca on Twitter wrote that, "Left NYC four years ago because my health insurance back then was $44,000 a year for me alone. In Europe, my husband and I pay $5,000 a year for us both. It made zero economic sense to stay but I'm homesick and desperately miss my friends." Jessica, how often do you find people who are returning to the US despite the many advantages of going abroad because they're homesick or miss something really significant about American life?

Jessica Drucker: That's definitely a factor. I think some people do come home, but there is a sense of placelessness that can happen when you know you don't want to move back to the US because I think a lot of people realize like, "But I have it really good where I am," for exactly that reason. Like, "I pay $5,000 a year for our healthcare, both of us," but there is a sense of like, if, "I can't go back, but I don't necessarily want to be here," one of the risks of uprooting your life is to then have a sense of placelessness meaning you don't really fit in anywhere. That is just a factor for people who end up becoming ex-pats.

You'll find a lot of the time what that does, however, is open you up to moving to new places. You've done it once, there's a blueprint for that. You can do it again and you tend to maybe try on another country or move to another place. I don't know how many people actually move back to the US because they miss it or because they want to be here. People move back maybe because they have to. This squeeze generation where you've got young kids, but also older parents, some people do come back to care for their ageing parents, for example.

Arun Venugopal: Let's take another call from someone who seems to have a historical perspective on this. Dolores, you're in Soho. You've been looking at this for a long time, have you?

Dolores: Yes, I have. Thank you for taking my call. I will remind you and all of the readers that I'm 79, in my lifetime this is the third time that there were people who were leaving this country. The first time my father fought in the Spanish Civil War, 1936 to 1939. Their passports were collected. They couldn't get jobs. During the McCarthy era, the blacklist people couldn't work. In Hollywood, in all walks of life, people left. They went to Canada, to Mexico, and to England to work, to survive. Then in my husband's era, when we were young, there was the Vietnam war. A lot of people left to go to Canada because they did not want to go and be drafted. My husband stalled and stalled because he had a student deferment and then finally he aged out and now this is the third time.

I love this country. I don't want to leave. I am an older person but I understand the ramifications and all the problems. I'm very, very upset about what the Supreme Court is doing and is so narrow-minded, and can't see a bigger perspective. It's like they're punishing women for wanting equal rights. These rightwing groups that are getting people involved with stop the steel and not recognizing the fact that the Biden was elected legally, very, very disturbing. On the one hand, I agree with one of your other callers who said we should stay and fight. I've certainly been fighting and being on picket lines all my life but I also understand people who just say, "It's not going to work for me. I can't survive. I need to find a place where I have healthcare and where I can afford to," and relocate.

Arun Venugopal: Absolutely. Thank you, Dolores, for your call. Appreciate that. Let's go to Douglas calling from Sens, France. I that how I pronounce it Douglas?

Douglas: Very good job.

Arun Venugopal: Where are you originally from?

Douglas: I was in San Diego, California, and I moved to Sens in 2019.

Arun Venugopal: Where exactly in France is Sens?

Douglas: It's an hour south of Paris by train. It's very easily accessible. I have a daughter in Paris, so that's really cool. What I wanted to recount are two things, the safety issue and the economic aspect. The safety issue, just please understand that nobody here thinks that they're going to encounter a gun ever, and there's no guns in the population to speak of. I live peacefully without any fear. I can't say the same thing in the US. I've I literally have a few friends that have been killed by guns. Just randomly, there's a man in Taos, New Mexico that owns a coffee shop. He's a very good friend of mine. He's dead now. No one here thinks about guns and I want to be clear about that. There's no dialogue for it.

That's very different. There's safety here. Then the other thing is absolutely almost everything, absolutely almost, everything is half price. I pay €680, which is $720, for a beautiful apartment. I mean beautiful. In the center of town, quiet, overlooking the cathedral. Sens is the town in France that has the first Gothic cathedral. It's a cool, special cathedral with a Roman labyrinth underneath it that they discovered. The apartment is half price. All of the food is half price. Please understand this. Every time I go to buy an onion, it's one-half price of what you pay for an onion. The onions here are not filled with water. Our vegetables in the United States, even the organic vegetables, are now being raised, filled with water. They're larger than they should be. Here, I'm when I say half price, I mean literally. I'm not being figurative about it.

Arun Venugopal: I know. I believe you. In five seconds or 10 seconds, actually, what do you miss most? What's your biggest gripe?

Douglas: Europeans are not the same as Americans and Americans are not the same as Europeans. We're more open at first, Europeans are more closed, and that's across the board. There's no exception to that. They just are. It's a little bit harder to get established, but once you're there for a while, people are friendly. They're nice. It's a respect. I walk my dog every day and we have a beautiful-- You should look up Sens. Look it up when you can and look, we have a tree-lined avenue around the whole town and you can walk and people are talking to each other and friendly.

Arun Venugopal: I take it your French is pretty decent, Douglas?

Douglas: My French is great. I'm not complete. I'm not a 100% fluent, but it's very good.

Arun Venugopal: Got it. Thank you, Douglas. Clearly not the proverbial ugly American in France. Thank you so much for your call. Let's take another call from, let's see. Kevin, tell me about your daughter. What are her plans? She's living abroad? Is that right?

Kelvin: That's correct. She was born and raised in New Jersey. Went to Rutgers, graduated, went to Berkeley, got her PhD in chemical physics, and was taken in at Max Planck in Germany. Her original plan was to keep in the poverty of academia for a while. Then after she did what she wanted to do in Germany, she'd come back to United States and get six a figure job. After the string of things that have been happening, she said, "I'll stay here."

Arun Venugopal: That was pretty much, it was a very direct connection to what's happening in the US?

Kelvin: Absolutely. One after the other.

Arun Venugopal: How do you feel about that?

Kelvin: I don't want her to come back. She's 1,000 miles away from a war. I feel she's safer than being here. Plus, my daughter's civil rights have been violated and I'm just supposed to sit here and deal with that? I could get in a lot of trouble.

Arun Venugopal: Thanks for your call. Kelvin, let's take a call from Wahlib. Wahlib, in Abu Dhabi. Is that correct?

Wahlib: That's correct.

Arun Venugopal: What's your take on this issue?

Wahlib: I'm a New Yorker and I'm a physician. I've been working at an American hospital in Abu Dhabi for a number of years now. I remember when I was a kid and we would travel and you'd say you were American you would tend to be looked at with a sense of awe and envy. Now when people realize you're American, it's anywhere between pity and just nothing. I think we don't realize when we're back home how much our political dysfunction affects everything in our lives, whether it's our infrastructure or our education, or how we simply can't solve problems. You be in third world countries in the taxis will have WiFi, whereas our highways are decrepit.

Especially the COVID pandemic, it was embarrassing. The COVID response where I am now, for example, was very organized. People followed rules and because of that, our mortality rates were very low here compared to what they were back home, despite the fact that we were the most sophisticated medicine in the world. I think one of the biggest things about living overseas it's just your eyes are open to what happens when we have political dysfunction and how we can't solve our problem.

Arun Venugopal: I hear you. Thank you for your call Wahlib. Appreciate it. Let's just wrap this up now, Jessica. Any last thought for somebody who has been listening or feeling these feelings and is trying to think of next steps?

Jessica Drucker: Yes, definitely. I think, first of all, if we're motivated only by fear it can really cloud our judgment. The first thing I really want to emphasize is just please think about where you actually dream of moving or where you think it would be good or fun to move because really at the end of the day, you have to enjoy where you move. You can't just move based out of fear. What kind of cultures do you like? Where have you always dreamt of moving? Then go through the process step by step of looking into how you can actually do this. I just want you also to know that over 9 million Americans are living abroad right now, which means this has been going on for a long time. It will always go on.

There are enough Americans out there to be, I believe, the 12th largest state of the United States. You are in good company if you should decide to move abroad.

Arun Venugopal: Jessica Drucker, consultant who helps LGBTQ folks move abroad and the author of How to Move Abroad and why it's the Best Thing You'll Do. Thank you. Thank you to Laura Begley Bloom, a senior contributor Forbes, and a travel expert whose column goes up today on exactly this phenomenon, this seemingly exploding phenomenon of Americans who are either planning to, or actually making the move abroad. Thank you to you both for joining us today.

Jessica Drucker: Thank you.

Laura Begley Bloom: Thank you.

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