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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. One of the big national politics stories today that trickles down locally into people's lives is the exploration over the weekend of the federal government's eviction moratorium and President Biden's new attempt to give it two more months of life.

Instead of extending the previous eviction ban, Biden first said that he lacked authority to extend it. Then after a furious backlash over the last few days from Progressive Democrats on behalf of low-income renters, the administration yesterday imposed a new 60-day federal moratorium on evictions in areas of the nation impacted the most by the Delta variant, a move that President Biden said will impact 90% of all renters.

Some of the background, in late June, maybe you remember, the US Supreme Court said the Biden administration and the Centers for Disease Control could not extend the moratorium without approval from Congress, and then Congress wouldn't do it. This new moratorium is helping to sidestep that Supreme Court decision, at least for a while, by being called new rather than an extension. Here is President Biden explaining his new two-month moratorium yesterday at the White House.

President Joe Biden: Whether that option will pass constitutional measure with this administration, I can't tell you. I don't know. There are a few scholars who say it will and others who say it's not likely to. At a minimum by the time it gets litigated, we'll probably give some additional time while we're getting that $45 billion out to people who are, in fact, behind in the rent and don't have the money.

Brian: That's President Biden noted in that clip from yesterday. There's a difference between the money in the current rent relief programs on paper and in reality. In New York, last year's $100 million program distributed less than half its funds. This spring's plan to distribute $2.7 billion to rent-burdened New Yorkers is off to a stuck-in-the-mud start as well. In New Jersey, the state has only distributed about 25% of the rent relief it received from the federal government according to northjersey.com.

Landlords there received about $223 million from these programs, helping about 34,000 families across the state. Tenants in the Garden State owe an estimated $1.1 billion in back rent so far according to analysis by PolicyLink, USC Equity Research Institute, quoted by northjersey.com. Eviction is not an equal opportunity risk, don't forget, as northjersey.com reports, "While fewer eviction cases have been filed throughout the pandemic because of these moratoriums, Black and Latino renters, and particularly female Black and Latino renters, remain disproportionately at risk of being filed against for eviction and actually being evicted according to the group Eviction Lab."

"Notably, Black renters received a disproportionate share of all eviction filings while Black renters make up 23% of all renters tracked by the Eviction Lab. They were subject to 35% of all eviction filings between March and December of last year." With me now to discuss all these developments is Allison Dikanovic, reporter for the news organization The City. She writes their Rent Update newsletter. Allison, thanks for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Allison Dikanovic: Hi, Brian, thanks so much for having me.

Brian: Let's talk about New York's eviction moratorium. Is there any indication that Governor Cuomo might extend it past the end of August-- if his term is extended past the end of August? Does Biden's new October 3rd federal date now apply to all of New York State as well?

Allison: Yes. Since he no longer has emergency powers, the Governor would not be able to extend New York's moratorium on his own. That's something that would have to go through the legislature which, if they are going back into session, would be something that the legislature could decide to do at that point. The Governor doesn't have that option to extend New York. That would fall to lawmakers in Albany. Then as far as the CDC moratorium, it does include New York as well, but just those same target areas that you had described a moment ago.

Brian: Those same target areas, meaning counties that are listed as high COVID transmission areas right now or substantial. What I've been able to find is that that includes all of New York City and Long Island, not entirely sure about Westchester or Rockland. I know it includes some New Jersey counties, at least the Jersey Shore counties. I'm not sure about Bergen and others in the immediate listening area.

We tend to think of New York as a relatively low transmission part of the country because we are relatively well-vaccinated, but there's still enough transmission going on. The positivity rate in the city is now over 3% again. That hasn't been the case in half a year, and so it's considered high or substantial transmission even here, right?

Allison: Yes, absolutely, Brian. That's exactly right.

Brian: You reported in mid-July that the state had distributed exactly zero of the new rent relief program's funds. Last week, your colleague Greg David on the website, The City, reported that funds had started flowing, but only at a trickle with less than $1 million in the hands of landlords and less than 5,000 cases over the approximately 160,000 submitted applications reviewed and verified. Why is the state struggling again to distribute its allotted rent relief funds?

Allison: Yes, that is the million-dollar question, or actually probably the $2.7 billion question. There's a few reasons why the funds have been flowing pretty slowly. One, the program got off to a late start. New York launched its rent relief program later than most other states. The legislature created the program as part of the budget deal in April and then the applications opened in June.

It's been just over two months. Like you said, funds are just starting to roll out. The group that is running the program, the state contracted with a third party to help run the program along with the Office of Temporary Disability and Assistance. They have just hired more staff. They've just brought on way more people to help process those applications. Then other things, there's a lot of concerns around access to the program.

There's concerns around how onerous the application is, the different documents that are required, and some glitches that were in the website early on. They have persisted. That have made it a little more challenging for people to apply and then for those applications to be processed and to get that money flowing out. There's a few different moving pieces that are making it hard to get this money out.

Hopefully, now, Governor Cuomo promised that payments would go out by the end of the month. We'll see what happens there. They have definitely buffed up their staffing to help process those applications and to also help answer people's questions who are running into issues or who have questions with their application. There's a lot more people staffing those helplines now.

Brian: Listeners, our lines are open for tenants and landlords alike for the next few minutes. We want to know how New York's COVID rent crisis and rent moratorium have affected you personally. Call us at 646-435-7280. Tenants, have you deferred paying rent? If so, why in your case or are you worried you wont be able to come up with owed back rent by the end of August when the state moratorium expires?

Although now, it looks like you would have until at least October 3rd under the new Biden directive. Landlords, are you afraid your businesses will fold or that you'll be foreclosed on if you don't get the rent that you lost during the pandemic soon? 646-435-7280. If any tenants or landlords want to call in, 646-435-7280. To both groups, have you tried to apply for aid from the rent relief program? Have you gotten any funds yet, or at least heard back from the state?

Help us report the story of the rent relief program by calling in with the status of your application. 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280, or tweet @brianlehrer as we continue with Allison Dikanovic, reporter for the news organization, The City, who writes their Rent Update newsletter. Allison, landlords and tenants are so often seen as competing entities, but they both seem to agree that the state's recent efforts to address the problems of both don't get to the heart of the problem. Could the rent relief bill be a common ground for landlords and tenants to lobby Albany on together, to get its act together?

Allison: Yes, Brian, that is what it's shaping up to be. This is one of the first issues as I've been covering different issues around rent that tenants and landlords are really on the same page. It's beneficial to everyone to get this money out and to make up these rent arrears that have really put people on edge about losing their home and also about losing their property for the past year and a half.

It's definitely something that people are coming together on. Some of the inefficiencies at the state are incredibly frustrating to both tenants and landlords. I've heard from both tenants and landlords that actually applying together and collaborating and cooperating to apply has been the most beneficial to navigate this process since both tenants and landlords do need to submit paperwork. They do need to be part of that application process with the state, so there's a lot more cooperation now happening than I've seen throughout the pandemic.

Brian: How is the rent relief program supposed to work? Who applies, the tenant or the landlord? Who gets the money?

Allison: Totally, so both do need to apply. Either tenants or landlords can start the process. If you are a tenant and apply, it's probably wise to let your landlord know that you are doing so and if you have a good relationship with them to do so together. Otherwise, just to let them know because then they will get a notification from the state as well that they need to complete their portion of the application.

Both tenants and landlords need to apply online. The only option is online through this portal to upload their documents and then the payments will be made directly to the landlord. Tenants can start applying or the landlord can start the application on the tenant's behalf, but the tenant will have to follow up with their portion and then the payments will go directly to the landlord for rent arrears after March 2020.

Brian: Here's Chris, an apartment building manager in Woodside. Chris, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

Chris: Hi, thank you very much for taking my call.

[crosstalk]

Brian: Go ahead.

Chris: Just one thing I'd like to correct that she-- that-- I'm sorry. I didn't get your name, ma'am. Really, I would say that the tenants have to contact their landlords because, otherwise, if we don't know-- we don't get confirmation that an application has been processed unless, of course, the application was correct in putting down the correct email. For instance, in my case, I only received probably about three official notifications through email. Otherwise, everybody had to actually personally tell me.

I still don't know if they're processed. Potentially, I have tenants who might have put an application in and haven't told me as well. The owners have to know. It's because we create our own online portal in the state website and we link each tenant's individual application to our online portal to make it much more effective for us to upload the documents that the state needs to prove for additional information to correspond with their applications.

Brian: That's really good information. Allison, go ahead.

Allison: I was just going to say, I think that that is really important that there's a lot of opportunities for miscommunication or for something getting missed since online is the only option to apply. There's a lot of folks who maybe don't use the internet or who didn't have email addresses who had to create them for this.

A lot of opportunities for people to miss correspondence from the state or maybe thinking that it's a phishing email or something I heard from landlords, who didn't realize that their tenant applied and didn't realize that the email was actually from the state for this program and thought it was spam or something. If you have the opportunity to communicate to your landlord or to communicate among tenants and landlords about the process, it could be helpful for everyone.

Brian: Chris, as a building manager, how's your experience with the process been?

Chris: It's been pretty bad, to be honest with you. It's been hit or miss with the representatives. Some representatives are very knowledgeable. Others, not so much. For instance, I will get a notification from tenants saying that they're being told that I need to still upload information when it's been uploaded literally months ago. One of the things I encourage all landlords and tenants again, the communication needs to be open between the two groups and to copy all the confirmation numbers and to make sure that the tenant for the-- whenever you upload a document, you get a confirmation number.

Definitely keep that information on your end. Also, tenants should get the landlord, owner's identification number. That way, they can always-- Because one of the common mistakes that's been going on is that representatives have been telling tenants that they need my W-9 and my direct deposit information. That is something that in order for me to create my online portal, I have to submit. For some reason, a lot of the tenants are being told that that hasn't occurred.

What I encourage tenants to do is to find out what their owner ID application number is and then they can always give that to whomever they're speaking to. It's just good to be armed with as much proof that, yes, this has been done. Just one note I just want to add in. I do think it's been one of the brutal things and, unfortunately, amusing things is of the 13 applications, only one of them has been approved. Of course, that is the only person who's non-immigrant of all the applications. It's because it's such a complicated process, I'm sure.

Brian: You mean that the immigrants if they have limited English or having troubles filing successful applications?

Chris: I'm going to assume so, yes. I can tell you flat out that-- I don't get a chance to-- I can't actually see their actual application, but what I can see is what a tenant has put in for their past due arrears and what they're requesting and almost to a T perhaps it's because the actual definition of arrears isn't well understood. The numbers are almost never correct. Whenever I put in my information, I have to put in also a sheet that lists what a tenant owes. I put it based on what my books are.

For instance, one tenant, I think, believes that they were just asked to know all the rent that they were supposed to have paid during the time, so the number becomes almost in the hundred thousands. Now, obviously, that's not how much they had been paying and stuff like that. There's been just little mistakes here and there that I'm sure are creating a big delay.

Brian: Chris, thank you for your call. That's really informative, all those different aspects of it that you laid out. I really appreciate it. Allison Dikanovic from the news organization, The City, who covers rent. Did you learn anything from that call or does that fit any patterns you've been reporting on?

Allison: Totally. I did learn things, so thank you so much for all that information, Chris. Yes, a lot of it does follow some patterns. Some advice that I've been hearing from advocates and lawyers who've been helping both tenants and landlords apply is that there has been some inconsistencies with the folks answering the helpline, representatives giving potentially different answers to questions and things.

He recommended keeping record of all your interactions with the state in this process, any confirmation numbers they give you. Things like that are really great to keep track of, keep written down. Also, if you are calling the state and asking something about your application, you can ask them to make a note of it in the comments section of your application file, so then the state can actually have record of those calls and things too.

Because like Chris mentioned that some tenants have been getting notices about needing to upload additional documents or notices that their landlords haven't updated documents. Sometimes that is accurate, but sometimes it is not. If you do get a notice from the state about your documents, it's best to just call the helpline right away and get that straightened out. Sometimes I've heard that it could be that a photo of a document was a little blurry and they couldn't make out the number. Just uploading a clearer photo or sometimes it just has been a mistake that there are still these glitches that people are getting notices when they shouldn't be. Just calling and keeping record like he noted is really important.

Brian: Here's another landlord, Peter in Brooklyn. You're on WNYC. Hi, Peter.

Peter: Hi, I got a serious question in relation to this whole arrangement. Now, I have filled out everything on the 3rd of June, submitted same, and I sent a copy and a drop of how it is supposed to be done to the tenant. The tenant has, so far, reluctantly has done absolutely nothing. I called the police too. The police came and said, "Well, you can't remove the tenant." What do you do in a situation where you're getting absolutely no cooperation from the tenant?

Brian: You mean, Peter, that since the landlord and the tenant both have to apply for the rent relief, you're trying to fill out the application, but your tenant won't do their part?

Peter: Well, exactly.

Brian: Have you heard stories like that, Allison? What can Peter do?

Allison: Yes. Peter, thank you so much for calling in. That sounds like a stressful situation. I'm sorry that you are navigating that. I have heard that. I've heard from both tenants and landlords that they are having trouble getting the other party to cooperate and fill out the application. I don't know enough about your tenant's situation. There's a lot of reasons as to why that could be the case. I do know like the previous caller mentioned that there are a lot of barriers to access, but there are a lot of organizations that are providing support to helping people gather their documents.

It's a pretty daunting process. The application can take up to two hours for tenants to complete. There are organizations throughout the city that are helping people with language access, helping people upload their documents, helping people make email addresses to complete the application. If it is a barrier, that filling this out, completing this process is daunting, is not accessible for some reason, there are organizations that are available to help that have gotten contracts as part of this program to do that.

Brian: Peter, I hope that's at least somewhat helpful. Here's, I think, the opposite story from a tenant. Ryan in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Ryan.

Ryan: Hi, Brian. I love your show. Thanks so much for having me on. I'm calling with the flip side of that question. I'm a tenant who's currently organizing for rent stabilization in a building that has gone through pretty significant rent increases during the pandemic and before. As a result, I'm concerned that my ERAP application, which we're discussing here, might be declined by my landlord simply out of spite because we're organizing as a tenant organization to try to secure rent stabilization.

Before I asked my question, I just want to say for folks who are encountering difficulties with being told they haven't uploaded enough documents or things are wrong, you might want to watch out if you've applied multiple times or if you were told you could start and then resume, you actually can't resume, and that earlier application will leave you with a partially finished one.

I discovered it for me personally. That's why I was getting, as the caller mentioned, these notices there were missing documents. My question for your guest is, is there a way to make sure that this money that tenants are entitled to, and as the previous landlord mentioned, landlords are entitled to actually get to them if the other party is simply unwilling in cases of spite or disagreement to do their part to make sure that money goes to where it's supposed to?

Brian: Allison.

Allison: Yes, thank you for that question. Built into the program, there are some more protections for tenants in this case than there are for landlords. Unfortunately, for the previous caller, his funds are dependent on the tenant completing their portion. If a tenant applies for ERAP and qualifies, even if the landlord does not complete their portion or the landlord refuses to accept the funds, the tenant does have some protection.

It's also just good to know, especially with the timing of the moratoriums, that any tenant who applies for ERAP is protected from eviction until they hear back from the state. Even with this delay in the funds flowing, even if you don't get your money by August 31st, if you have applied and you have an application pending, your eviction cases state they can't move their housing court. Once the moratorium expires, if your landlord refused to accept the funds but then did move to evict you, there are protections that would not be allowed in court.

It gets a little bit technical where there is this pending period where the landlord then is notified. Your tenant qualified for this program. You're entitled to this amount of funds. They basically wait in this period if you choose to accept them or not. If you don't, that is if the landlord does not accept them, that is their choice, but then the tenant will have documentation of that if it did ever come up in housing court to show that they did qualify for this program. The landlord did have the opportunity to get those funds and that would be a defense against an eviction case for non-payment, yes.

Brian: Let me touch one more thing and then we'll be out of time. The eviction moratorium has come alongside a foreclosure moratorium for property owners who own mortgage payments. Last year's property tax lien sale in New York was canceled, meaning those who are late on their property taxes are at the mercy of collection agencies, at least for now. How does that apply to the landlord, Peter's situation, if he's not getting the back rent or the rent relief from the state because his tenant won't apply? For that matter, for anybody who's not getting it yet because the state's program has been so slow, how is the foreclosure moratorium transmitted to the banks?

Allison: Yes. Thanks for that, Brian. The foreclosure moratorium is-- That is on the same timeline as the eviction moratorium through the end of August, at least for the state. Well, then there are things with the CDC moratorium that extend to some federally-backed mortgages, which honestly, I need to keep reporting on because since different people have their mortgages through different services.

It's a little bit more decentralized than the rent protections. As far as the foreclosure moratorium right now, the residential units are not being foreclosed and the lien sale has been on hold. The lien sale could happen at the end of the year, but there's not one scheduled yet. There would need to be notice at least 90 days before there's a lien sale. There's no plans right now to have a lien sale in New York City this year.

Then there is a component of homeowner aid that is pending right now. Similar to the federal funds that are funding this rent relief program, there is a chunk of change about $500,000-- no, $500 million for homeowners that are at risk of foreclosure, that are behind on property tax or water bills that homeowners could be eligible for in the coming months.

The timeline for that is still being worked out. It's pending on some things from the Treasury from the federal government, but New York will have a Homeowner Assistance Fund where-- I don't know Peter's situation, so it's different for owners of big apartment buildings. For small homes, there will be relief available for mortgage arrears, for property tax arrears, and water bills in the next months.

Brian: Well, we'll have to leave it there for today. It's so great that The City, the news organization you work for, has a Rent Update newsletter. I see that you do all this engagement reporting and interaction, keeping tenants and landlords up-to-date on changing laws and policies. That's so great that that exists and that you're doing that. I'm sure we'll have you back. Allison Dikanovic, a reporter for the news organization, The City, who writes their Rent Update newsletter, thank you for today.

Allison: Thank you so much, Brian.

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