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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again everyone. The racial justice and environmental movements are increasingly becoming one. The Bernie Sanders, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez style Green New Deal is one example. President-Elect Joe Biden's latest environmental nominees are another. Biden has chosen Michael S. Regan, who headed the North Carolina Department of Environmental Quality as the next EPA Administrator.

Regan will be the first Black man to hold that position. As well as environmental law expert Brenda Mallory to serve as the first Black Chair of the White House Council on Environmental Quality. They were among six other would-be nominees and appointments to Biden's environmental cabinet, announced over the weekend by Biden and Vice President-Elect Kamala Harris. This was on Saturday, and they underscored the diversity of their Cabinet picks. Here's Biden, speaking at the Queen Theatre in Wilmington, Delaware on Saturday.

President-Elect Joe Biden: Already, there are more people of color in our cabinet than any cabinet ever. More women than ever. The Biden Harris cabinet, it will be historic. The cabinet that looks like America.

Brian: That, of course, is in general terms. Joining me now to talk about the EPA and other agencies with environmental policy responsibilities in the Biden administration, and the extent to which environmental justice will be a priority are Peggy Shepard Co-Founder and Executive Director of WE ACT for Environmental Justice, and Juliet Eilperin, Washington Post Senior National Affairs Correspondent, covering environmental and energy policy changes in the Trump administration.

Some of you may remember she was on to go down a list of environmental deregulation points under Trump and their implications a few years ago. Biden might try to undo some of those things that Trump did. Peggy and Juliet, welcome back both of you to WNYC. Hi, there.

Juliet Eilperin: Hi.

Peggy Shepard: Hey, thank you.

Brian: Let's start with a look at Michael S. Regan, head of the North Carolina Department of Environmental Quality. Who of you knows him? Peggy Shepard is this somebody you're familiar with?

Peggy: Yes, I am familiar with Michael. He has such great potential. He's got a wonderful background of experience for a younger man, having served at EPA, the Environmental Defense Fund, as well as head of the Department of Environmental Conservation in North Carolina. There's the North Carolina environmental justice network that has been very supportive and excited about his appointment, they've been very appreciative that he started an Environmental Justice Advisory Council in North Carolina.

Again, North Carolina has a lot of issues with confined animal feed operations and other kinds of farming facilities producing pollution in nearby communities. He's really been under a lot of pressure there in North Carolina, to address those kinds of issues and certainly, he'll be taking office at the EPA with very low morale there and with hundreds of rollbacks that need to be rolled back.

Brian: What's an example of one of those rollbacks or a couple of them?

Peggy: Certainly, the NEPA, the National Environmental Protection Act, which Trump has rolled back, it is an incredible opportunity for communities to engage around environmental impacts that might be coming to their communities from major federal projects. That has been a significant source of contention for community organizations, again, that would be rolled back and they would not have the opportunity to really engage on projects coming to their communities. NEPA has been a very important one. Certainly, rolling back car emission standards has been another, but there are so many around clean air and clean water, exploration in the Arctic refuge as well. There are just hundreds of rollbacks.

Brian: Juliet Eilperin from the Washington Post, this is your wheelhouse. Do you want to add to that or give us a big picture context?

Juliet: Absolutely. There's a long list, as Peggy mentioned. There's a slew of policies I would note. A number of the ones she mentioned are ones that might take a number of agencies involvements or different departments, but in terms of what Michael Regan himself can focus on as head of EPA, for example, earlier this month, the agency decided not to tighten air quality standards for fine particle pollution, which many people commonly referred to as soot, which again, disproportionately affects Americans of color and low-income Americans across the country.

One of the things that Secretary Regan was particularly known for is he helped forge a multibillion-dollar settlement over coal ash cleanup with Duke Energy. This is, of course, this toxic waste which is stored at power plants across the country. There have been several rules finalized weakening storage requirements for coal ash. That's something that's going to be in his sights as well as, there-- Again, she pointed to we expect both tougher tailpipe emissions for cars and light trucks, as well as a slew of other climate-related policies. He has made it clear and the Biden transition team has made it clear that there'll be reassessing many of these policies.

Brian: Two of you have already mentioned many major environmental rules that were in effect. I guess, these are things that can be done through executive action. These are not acts of Congress, Juliet, these are things Trump and his EPA Administrator were able to do with a snap of a finger and a sign on the dotted line, and Biden and his EPA Administrator could do the same thing and the other direction?

Juliet: Everything you said was correct, except for snap of the finger. Many of these rules take a couple of years at least to write and rewrite. The Trump administration had to do that and obviously got challenged in court when it tried to take shortcuts, the same will be true for a new Biden administration, which of course, will face opposition from industry and Republicans and particularly Republican attorneys general across the country. It will take time to do a number of these measures.

Although with the auto industry, one of the interesting things is there, you could see a negotiated settlement between federal officials, the auto industry, and California, which has considerable sway because it can set more stringent air pollution standards. Sometimes you might be able to have a deal that could move things quicker in a lot of cases, unless you get a quick ruling in court that overturns one of these policies, it will take some time to replace them.

Brian: Thank you. Shepard, do you want to talk more about Michael Regan's Environmental Justice Advisory Board when he was in charge of environmental policy in North Carolina, that you mentioned before? What are a couple of environmental justice initiatives that he might get credit for?

Peggy: I can't speak to that. It's a fairly recent-- A board that's been set up. Again, he was only in that position for one year with a Republican legislature. He's really just been getting started, had a couple of wins that Juliet has just mentioned, but it's too early to talk about major environmental justice initiative under that advisory organization.

Brian: Juliet, is Regan known in Washington at all?

Juliet: Not very well. He really emerged as a surprise contender for this very important position. Earlier, it had appeared there were a couple of other front runners, including Mary Nichols, who is the longtime head of the California Air Resources Board, who has done a slew of policies aimed at cutting greenhouse gas emissions, really put California in the lead on this issue nationally.

Again, speaking to the topic that we're discussing, what's interesting is there were environmental justice activists in California who raised concerns about her tenure, arguing that she didn't do enough to look at what were the impacts of pollution on poor Californians, Californians of color. She countered that they actually ended up adopting language that has sent millions to these communities, but really that was in many ways what provided an opening for a less conventional candidate, again, who's 44 years old and has headed a agency a 10th of the size of the EPA to emerge as the President-Elect's nominee.

Brian: Listeners, we can take a few phone calls for Peggy Shepard from WE ACT and Juliet Eilperin from the Washington Post on President-Elect Joe Biden's environmental nominees, and the merging of the racial justice and environmental movements that he hopes to further in his administration 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280 or tweet a question or a comment @BrianLehrer. Here's another clip of President-Elect Biden from Saturday, when he said his environmental nominees will be ready on day one of his presidency listen.

President-Elect Biden: Today's nominees are ready on day one, which is essential because we literally have no time to waste. Folks, we're in a crisis. Just like we need to be a unified nation in response to COVID-19, we need a unified national response to climate change. We need to meet the moment with the urgency it demands, as you would during any national emergency. From these crises, I should say, we need to seize the opportunity to build back and build back better than we were before. That's what this administration is going to do with the help of these fine people.

Brian: Peggy want to talk about some of the other fine people, as Biden calls them because we've been talking about Michael Regan so far, nominated to be the head of the EPA, but there are other people who the President was rolling out, President-Elect, you want to talk about the big picture who some of the other individuals are and what they might add up to together?

Peggy: Yes, Brenda Mallory, is a very experienced environmental attorney who's been appointed to the White House Council on environmental quality. We're looking for a lot of transformation at that agency. We're hoping that there will be an environmental and climate justice office that's set up there that will really focus on environmental justice, and provide the coordination that's needed among a variety of agencies. The Clinton executive order on environmental justice really requested and demanded that 17 federal agencies develop plans to address environmental justice.

The White House Council on Environmental Quality under Brenda Mallory will be tasked with providing a lot of that coordination to ensure that environmental justice advances really occur at those agencies. There has not been a lot of accountability by those agencies under the current executive order, so we are hoping that President-Elect Biden will issue a new executive order that really holds those agencies more accountable, and creates an annual recording system. We also will have Jennifer Granholm at the Department of Energy and she's had an excellent record in Michigan, negotiating the car standards as well as the stimulus.

Brian: Yes, she was governor of Michigan, which is an interesting pick for Energy Secretary. Juliet, I wonder if you want to comment on this too. Interesting pick for Energy Secretary is somebody who was governor of Michigan where, of course, there's such a close relationship with the auto industry?

Juliet: Absolutely. Although, again, Governor Granholm has developed a strong record both, in the midst of the Great Recession, working to help hammer out the steel, which helped impose the first-ever carbon standards on vehicles in the United States, as well as since then she really has focused on clean energy and in the event on Saturday, which we heard the President-Elect speak from, she spoke at great length of how she sees clean energy jobs as central to her role.

I think we're gonna see a tremendous focus there and I think Peggy makes an excellent point, the White House Council on Environmental Quality really will spearhead this issue of holding agencies across the government responsible and accountable for incorporating concerns about environmental justice. I think you're really going to see this is a provision which again, depending on the administration is referred to in regulations we obtained documents showing how it was really dismissed and downplayed under the Trump administration, particularly at the Environmental Protection Agency.

I also just wanted to point out, particularly for New Yorkers, New York's Deputy Secretary for Energy and Environment, Ali Zaidi is going to be the Deputy National Climate Advisor at the White House. He has a record on this, again, Peggy can probably speak more at greater length than I can, but certainly, he has highlighted these issues and will again be in one of those roles, dealing with folks across the government trying to see how they can advance these issues.

Brian: Peggy, you want to elaborate on that?

Peggy: Yes, Ali Zaidi is great, in the short time he was here in New York State. He was transformative in terms of assigning environmental justice folks to the climate leadership community Protection Act, which is now being implemented through a variety of working groups and advisory groups. He was very important in reaching out to the environmental justice community around a number of issues, whether it was transportation, equity, and air quality. We really think he's going to bring a lot of fresh new ideas and he'll be working with Gina McCarthy, who was the former EPA Administrator, she will be coordinating climate and energy throughout the federal agencies and will bring a strong fighting voice for these issues at the White House.

Brian: Yes, Peggy, Gina McCarthy is a domestic climate saw John Kerry, who we haven't mentioned yet, in this segment as a Special Presidential Envoy internationally on climate issues. Peggy, does the sheer size of the environmental cabinet if we can call it that signify something?

Peggy: It absolutely signifies that it will be a priority. I believe in listening to environmental justice advocates around the country, Biden has also continued to signal that those voices will have a priority in his administration. I think the organizations in California that opposed Mary Nichols, did so because they did not support the market-based mechanisms that she was espousing, and even though some millions have gone to frontline communities from the revenue from cap and trade.

We have to understand that the administration of those funds, has left communities not actually understanding where that money has gone, how much of that money has gone to those communities and there has not been accountability for those funds. When Biden says that he will commit 40% to invest in clean energy in frontline communities, we have to really ensure that the administration of those funds will actually get to the communities that need them.

Brian: Another name that we haven't mentioned yet is Deb Haaland nominated to serve as the next Interior Secretary. Juliet, in a recent article you wrote that with that pick, and others and Deb Haaland has been getting pressed mostly for being the first Native American to be nominated for Interior Secretary, and of course, that's relevant because the Interior Department has a lot to say about policy toward native lands, but you also wrote, "Biden sent a clear message with that pick that top officials charged with confronting the nation's environmental problems, we'll have a shared experience with the Americans who've been disproportionately affected by toxic air and polluted land." Talk about Deb Haaland in that respect.

Juliet: Absolutely. The Congresswoman who had just won re-election to her second term and had obviously been an important politician in New Mexico is a member of the Laguna Pueblo. In that state, she is someone who has a close affinity with Indian country, not just in her own state, but across the US and she speaks in very personal terms about what it was like to visit her grandparent's home as a child. She's a child of military veterans, they moved around a lot and she really has made this a focus as she was the vice-chair of the natural resources committee in the house.

She often frames these issues from both her own lived experience and those of her constituents and those, more broadly speaking, in tribes across the country. I think when you look at how, again, how she speaks about what she sees as her charge and how she plans to be fierce when Michael Regan talks about growing up in North Carolina with asthma as a child, they are approaching these jobs from a different perspective compared to many of their predecessors.

Brian: Let's take a phone call Karen in Morris County, New Jersey you're on WNYC. Hi, Karen.

Karen: Hi. I have a question about oil and gas subsidies. I was wondering if it's possible to enlist the support of the oil and gas industry by, first of all, reducing their subsidies by something like 5% a year for the next 10 years, and then 10% a year for the following five years. However, allowing them to keep those subsidies, if they are able to convert their systems into producing clean energy, and also making this plan contingent upon their retaining and retraining their employees.

Brian: Who wants it? Juliet, I'm calling on you.

Juliet: I would say that's an interesting idea, which I had not heard before. I would say that would take congressional action. Obviously, one of the things that we've been talking about is this issue of that the new administration will try to do as much as it can through its executive authority. Certainly, we'll try to get some bipartisan agreements. It would just be one of those interesting questions of, "Could you get some of these oil and gas companies--" many of whom are at least making initial investments, although not nearly as large investments in renewable energy compared to their fossil fuel portfolio. "Could you get them to agree to something like that?"

It might be a tough sell, but certainly one of the things that I think will be a very interesting question to explore in the months and years to come is business likes regulatory certainty. There's been real whiplash as we've been discussing between Republican and Democratic administrations. Could there be some sort of consensus on how to shift towards clean energy with the idea that ultimately that will at least allow for better planning on the part of these companies?

Brian: As we run out of time, let me follow up on that, that idea of regulatory whiplash and ask you what more mischief from an environmentalist perspective Trump might yet create before he leaves office on January 20th. I see that Juliet for you at the Washington Post, you have documented more than 130 environmental protections and regulations in the last four years that have been reversed or weakened. You also recently wrote that the Trump Administration has plans to target nearly a dozen more environmental policies between now and mid-January. What are the parting shots from Trump that we can expect?

Juliet: Peggy identified one of the biggest ones, which is that the interior department has announced it will hold a lease sale on the Arctic national wildlife refuge, coastal plain on January 6th. Those leases, if sold and finalized before noon on inauguration day, will be much more difficult to undo compared to some of these other policies we've been talking about. That certainly stands out. There's another one that would restrict what scientific studies the environmental protection agency can use when developing public health rules. There still are a few key policies that the Trump administration is determined to finalize before he leaves.

Brian: Peggy, you want to add anything to that briefly, or did Juliet cover it?

Peggy: I think Juliet has covered it. There's just a huge list. Some very serious like the leases in the Arctic refuge and some that you can't even imagine why he would be thinking about low flow toilets and showerheads. He's really crossing the gamut here and trying to do as much damage as possible to provide obstacles for the incoming administration.

Brian: Peggy Shepard is co-founder and Executive Director of the group We Act For Environmental Justice. Juliet Eilperin is the Washington Post Senior National Affairs Correspondent covering Environmental and Energy Policy. Thank you both so much for joining us. It's a good premiere for a lot of people who don't follow these things closely during the transition. Thank you so much.

Juliet: Great to talk to you.

Peggy: Thank you.

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