Brian: Brian Lehrer on WNYC and all during that week, we've incorporated one segment, the day we've been calling remote learning an interview that doubles as an introductory course to a topic like economics, health, or science. Today, in our remote learning slot we're actually ditching that format to bring you some news on remote learning itself, namely that if you attend or teach at a New York City public school, you can say goodbye to the practice.

Just yesterday, in case you haven't heard this yet, Mayor de Blasio promised a full reopening of the New York City public schools system in September in-person, five days a week with no remote option and it is controversial, no remote option for students to attend school exclusively online. He made the announcement on MSNBC's Morning Joe.

Mayor de Blasio: God news. New York City public schools, one million kids will be back in their classroom in September, all in-person, no remote.

?Speaker 3: Wow.

Brian: What will be required in many cases though, is masks. With us now is WNYC Education reporter Jessica Gould, who's been on the remote learning story since day one. Welcome back to the show Jessica. Hi.

Jessica: Hi.

Brian: Does this announcement represent a change for the mayor?

Jessica: Yes, it certainly does. Earlier this spring, the mayor said that there would be a remote option for families, that that's what he anticipated, and then yesterday he says no more. In the recent weeks, he's gotten kind of vague on the subject and so has the school's chancellor, but counting it out completely, was definitely a change for him.

Brian: Full attendance, but with masks and social distancing. Here is, oh we have another Mayor de Blasio clip. Here's what Mayor de Blasio said about social distancing yesterday on NY1, when asked if there's room in full attendance classrooms for the CDC distancing guidelines.

Mayor de Blasio: Right now, the distancing requirement is three feet. Now because COVID has reduced so much in the city, within the CDC's current guidelines, we could do every kid three feet apart and we could make that work, but I fundamentally believe that not in May, today in May, but in the next three-plus months before school opens, that standard is going to be relaxed further. I think we're going to go into the school year with something very similar to pre-pandemic standards.

Brian: Jessica, the mayor is predicting that the current social distancing guidelines from the CDC will have been relaxed by September, as we heard there, but they're not, and social distancing requirements are still in place, how will 100% of students fit in the classrooms if they have to be distance by three feet?

Jessica: That's a very good question and it's something that I've been hearing from principals in recent weeks, that they're really worried about. They say that often if you do the math on the capacity in their rooms and put three feet in, especially under the rules that currently count adults in the room as two kids, they just don't fit. Some schools are going to need, for some classrooms, overflow space and more teachers to serve those kids. That city argues it's actually just a small fraction of schools that would need some sort of overflow capacity and that they could use gyms or auditoriums, but I've noticed parents saying since yesterday, since the mayor made this announcement, that hoping for a change from the CDC isn't the same as making a plan.

Officials say they're working on it, but I know this is anxiety for administrators. They have to budget for that now, even with the expectation that things might change. One positive thing is that schools are getting more money this year as part of their state funding, and also because of stimulus funding and the city is relaxing hiring requirements, so schools may be able to hire more teachers in order to staff these spaces, but the question of where the spaces are going to be is a looming question.

Brian: Maybe the assumption that the three-foot and six-foot distancing rules will still be in effect is the reason for what seems to many people, like a reversal from the Teachers' Union, the National Union, The American Federation of Teachers, which has a local affiliate in New York, The United Federation of Teachers, they've been understandably resistant to go back fully in-person in the past because of COVID spread concerns, but the AFT voiced their support for de Blasio’s plan and a path toward fully reopening in the fall. Here's AFT President Randi Weingarten on NPR.

Randi: What we've also seen is that the safety conditions, the mitigation and all of these things, have created the pathway to schools not only being safe, but feeling safe. There's a lot of trust and there's a lot of joy for the people who have been back in school.

Brian: Do you think that we are likely to see a lot of hiring of new teachers and somehow, the designation of new spaces? Most school buildings are full already, they use all their rooms for classes and other things, so where will this come from, if the CDC three-foot and six-foot distancing guidelines stay in effect?

Jessica: Randi Weingarten also wrote in The Atlantic that she wants the three feet to stay in place. The school system is, as I said relaxing it's hiring restrictions, there's more money, they're increasing the teacher pipeline, so it's possible that there will be more teachers, though this is something that I've been worried about both as a reporter and as a parent, with the expectation that there's going to be a tremendous amount of burnout from this year.

Will teachers want to be joining the profession? Will there be a lot of retirements? So far, the school system says there's not a wave of retirements that eclipses the past, in fact so far, it's less, but that's something I'm going to be watching really closely.

Brian: What about masking, what's the expected protocol on whether kids and teachers will be required to wear masks, and will that depend on whether they disclose their vaccination status?

Jessica: It won't depend on whether they disclose their vaccination status right now. Right now, the rule is continued mask-wearing for students and staff in schools. There's no indication yet that that's going to change, and we should keep in mind that only, I think, 50% or so of staff are vaccinated at this point. For some parents, that's a reason for additional caution and for some staff members too, actually.

Brian: The mayor has said that he's not going to require vaccination. Will he required disclosure of whether or not students and teachers have been vaccinated?

Jessica: He hasn't said that. We did some reporting on this because the UFT President Michael Mulgrew has said that asking teachers to say whether they've been vaccinated or not is a violation of HIPAA. According to the legal experts that we've talked to, that doesn't seem to be the case, but I think you and I have talked about before, the state actually hasn't mandated any vaccines for adults in schools before, so this could be a whole new area.

Brian: How controversial is the mayor's position that masking will still be required? I know that in England, for example, younger students didn't have to wear masks in school, even over the past year. They just removed the requirements last week for secondary students, like high school students, that's in the UK. How controversial do you get the sense in this 24 hours or so, since the mayor announced that the schools will be back fully in-person and only in-person in September, how controversial is the mask requirement turning out to be?

Jessica: One of the first calls I had after the announcement yesterday was with a mom who was saying that she really thinks that there shouldn't be a decision on masks until we're further along and we can see what the vaccination rates are and what the case rates are. She said a lot of people who've been sending their kids to school already, are super done with masks, but there are a lot of people who also haven't felt comfortable sending their kids to school at all, the majority of people. I think that there's still a lot of desire for caution and masking being one of them.

I was reading The New York Times survey of 800-plus epidemiologists last night, and I believe that the recommendation for a majority is still to have kids, particularly unvaccinated kids, masked indoors.

Brian: This stat that I'm about to mention probably all the public school parents listening right now know it, a lot of other people may not know it, to this point, a majority of families continue to choose all remote learning, even with things starting to lighten up pandemic wise in April, and the mayor offering another option for the last few months of spring term here for people to go back into the hybrid model, where they'd be in school some of the time in-person and some of the time at home. A majority of families, 600,000 families, remained all remote.

How down is everybody, as far as you could tell with going back all in-person in September?

Jessica: I heard from a lot of relieved parents and I heard from a lot of really distressed parents and a lot of the parents who've kept their kids home are not comfortable. Some people have kept their kids home in a continuous way because creating a new situation, where they had aftercare and sending them to school was too hard, after being remote for three quarters of the year, the academic year so far.

In most cases from the conversations I've had with parents, it's really more about health and safety. Then, a rare, but significant group of people also have felt their students have really thrived with remote learning. There was a parent I talked to yesterday named Colette Healey, and she spoke from a lot of different angles that I've heard from multiple parents about their concerns. One is that her daughter goes to an overcrowded school, so she's concerned about safety and social distancing. One is that her son is in special education and he's actually done better with remote learning, which is not true by any stretch of all students in special education, but there have been some, and some across the board, not just in special education. Then she also said as an Asian American family, she was concerned about discrimination and harassment, both in school or on the way to school.

We've done a lot of reporting on and have read a lot of reporting also on black families who feel like the school system never fully worked for them. Their kids were over-policed and there's been some relief in being at home, but of course, it's a huge range and it has been all along.

Brian: Will all the teachers be required to go back into the classrooms as well, because we know that one of the very frustrating patterns for high school students, especially right now, is the kids go back into the classroom in-person, but the teacher hasn't. It's what's come to be called Zoom in a room, right where there's a classroom full of socially-distanced students, but they're still looking at their screens because the teacher is at home.

Jessica: Right. I asked the mayor specifically yesterday at his press conference, if this signals the end of Zoom in a room definitively. He said it does. We'll see if he can follow through with that. My understanding right now is that there will not be any medical accommodations to teach remotely from home, that that was a pandemic, Coronavirus thing that is not going to continue into the new academic year. There will still be medical waivers for teachers, but it won't be to teach remotely, which is different.

The example that the DOE gave me was that you could still get a waiver to teach on the first floor only, if you have a broken foot. I think there's going to be more complication and potentially more COVID-specific elements to this, but it won't be that you can stay home and teach your kids from your home.

Brian: What does the union have to say about that?

Jessica: The union appears to be okay with that. It seems on board with reverting back to the pre pandemic requirements. Does that mean that everyone in the union agrees with that? I don't think so. I think there are still a lot of concerns, particularly for immunocompromised teachers who the vaccine may not be as effective for them. I've asked about that. I haven't gotten an answer from the union or the DOE on that specifically yet, but I will let you know. Right now, the union leadership seems to be on board with this.

They have called for remote learning for a group of medically fragile students. That's actually always been in place through home instruction, for home bound students or hospitalized students. I'm not really sure what they're asking for differs from what has existed in the past, but I do wonder if there's some flexibility there that they're seeking for teachers who have particular medical conditions. Frankly, they've really said no remote teaching, it's not going to happen.

Brian: Last question. Since we've been following remote learning and all the other management of the public schools during the pandemic in New York and New Jersey, there have been some times instances of sort of one leapfrogging over the other, or lagging behind the other, in terms of what changes are made or just difference of opinions of what's the best thing to do. People may not realize New York city and the State of New Jersey have roughly the same population, but New York city has one school district. New Jersey has about 600, but some of this had been directed statewide from the governor.

How close are New York city's policies and new Jersey's policies with respect to what you've just described, for September, if it's been announced yet?

Jessica: They're close, and actually New Jersey was out of the gate before. Last week, Governor Phil Murphy said that there would be full-time instruction, in-person, no remote learning. I think that actually, lit the fire even more under the mayor to clarify his position.

Brian: We will leave it there with WNYC education reporter, Jessica Gould, Jessica, amazing reporting for you since day one of the pandemic, amazing reporting from you on the public schools, what a time to be an education reporter. I know our listeners are so appreciative of your service from last March, right through to today, so keep it up and thanks for coming on today.

Jessica: Thank you. That means a lot.

Brian: Brian Lehrer and WNYC, more to come.

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