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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC, and congratulations are in order around here because our colleagues at On the Media have just won a Peabody Award. It's for their riveting series, The Divided Dial. In it, independent journalist, Katie Thornton chronicles the rise of ultra-conservative talk radio in general, and the Salem Media Group, in particular, the company that makes radio that sounds like the four hosts in this 30-second montage,

Billy Crone: "The COVID pandemic--this has been the biggest global dry run to prepare the world to receive the mark of the beast in the seven-year tribulation in the history of mankind."

Ben Shapiro: "The vast majority at this point of gender confusion is being driven by societal mania."

Carl Jackson: "Racial profiling is good for your health. It could save your life. I know a lot of people--oh, my God, this is racist. No, no, it's not. No, it's not."

Kirk: "Drill. Build the Keystone pipeline. Deport illegals. Build the wall. I don't want to hear about the EPA or the Department of Energy. I don't want to hear about Biden's overreach. Defy the federal government."

Brian Lehrer: Defy the government. Break the law so we can have more fossil fuels. Racial profiling is good. The COVID pandemic response was a dry run for the mark of the beast, which look it up means an anti-God totalitarian world government. It really means that. If you haven't listened to The Divided Dial yet, you can check it out online. We'll also be airing a composite version of the whole series as a special this Saturday from noon to 4:00.

Katie Thornton joins us now for a few minutes. Katie, welcome back to the show, and massive congratulations on the Peabody Award which is so deserved.

Katie Thornton: Thank you so much, Brian. It's great to be back talking with you.

Brian Lehrer: For listeners who haven't heard the series, we all know right-wing talk radio is a big influential thing. What central question were you trying to answer that was new?

Katie Thornton: There were two questions that drove this series. One, I wanted to know just how far-reaching and just how influential right-wing talk radio was and how it's shaping American politics, but I also wanted to know how it came to be that the radio dial is so dominated by right-wing voices, and that's what we set out to do in the series. We chronicled the rise of one company in particular, but we put it in the context of about a century of radio history in the US.

Brian Lehrer: Well, is there a short version of how one side of the political spectrum came to dominate talk radio, because there are so many conservative stations in America and very few liberal or progressive ones. Listeners think about this, here in New York, the commercial band has three conservative talk stations, zero, liberal, or progressive ones. What's the short answer as to why, Katie?

Katie Thornton: Absolutely. Well, I certainly encourage people to listen to the series for the long answer, but the short answer is that it isn't just listener preference. Certainly, there's an audience for this right-wing content on the radio dial, but there have been a lot of very specific political and economic decisions that have given the right, an advantage and allowed them to come to power on the radio airwaves in the United States. That's one of the things that we chronicle in the series. There was a time in American radio history when there were policies put in place to encourage a super diverse array of voices, of programming, of points of view on the American radio dial.

It led to this really thriving town square, as one of my interviewees put it on the radio dial. A lot of diverse voices, a lot of conflicting and differing opinions. Over the course of the deregulatory 1980s, and into the '90s and continuing to the present, those policies were removed. New policies were put in place that really allowed those who already had an advantage in the marketplace, large companies, large station owners, to consolidate their power and to make a right word shift.

Brian Lehrer: This show won a Peabody in a previous year, and it was for radio that builds community rather than divides. That's exactly what they honored us for, radio that builds community rather than divides. I couldn't help but think that that was exactly the opposite of the kinds of things that you are pointing out in the series, which is called The Divided Dial. Did they give you any narrative, the Peabody people, about why they liked the series enough to honor it this way?

Katie Thornton: Thanks so much for asking that. I really take your point about the fact that radio really can build community. I think your show is a perfect example. There is something really inherently democratic about the radio dial and about the participatory call-in model, especially in the era before the internet. It was really an early opportunity for people to hear their voices on a large, sometimes local, sometimes national medium without being stars and celebrities themselves. I came into this as a radio lover. I grew up in Minneapolis, Minnesota, where we have a really amazing assortment of community and public and commercial radio.

To me, radio has this ability to be accessible as both a listener, as a consumer, and also as a presenter and somebody who's involved and can hear their voice on the air. I truly love the community-building potential of radio, and that's what drew me to do this series is to ask how it came to be that a lot of that participatory element was lost. In terms of the Peabody feedback, I'm trying to remember off the top of my head. A lot of what we did in this series was try to take a historic lens to give context to our present moment and situate this one company that we investigated, Salem Media Group, in the historical context, a century of historical context of how the right came to dominate talk radio. For that reason, the far-reaching historical context, Peabody chose to honor us with the award.

Brian Lehrer: Some recent news, Katie, I'm sure you know this AM radio may soon be obsolete as The Hill put it. Car manufacturers are increasingly opting to eliminate AM radio in their new vehicles. Already, BMW, Mazda, Volvo, Volkswagen, and Tesla among others have either removed or plan to remove AM radio from at least some electric models. Ford is ditching AM in all new cars, gas or electric. I'm curious what you think the implications are for the influence of extreme right-wing talk, because here in New York, at least we have three right-wing talk stations and they're all on AM.

Is that the case for most markets, and if so, does dropping AM from cars, which is where so much radio listening takes place, threaten the influence of their conservative radio juggernaut?

Katie Thornton: Such a good question and a timely question. It is certainly a change in the market, in the industry, and inevitably it will lead to a degree of less listeners, at least on the AM platform. I think that rumors of radio's death for almost since it was invented and became a large commercial industry have been greatly exaggerated as we say in the series. There have long been claims that radio is going to die, and that has never been the case. Certainly, certainly this is a shift, but I would note that AM talk radio, a lot of people think of talk radio as existing only on the AM dial.

That was because in the 1980s especially, and in the '70s as well, when the FM dial opened up and it had that crisp, clean sound, a lot of the music stations, the big money-making stations went over to the FM dial, and left the AM dial struggling a little bit to find what they did well. Ultimately, they landed on talk radio. From especially the '80s onward, the AM dial really became a haven for talk radio but that's no longer where it exists solely. A lot of AM stations have FM repeater stations. They broadcast both on AM and FM signals in the same market. A lot of these stations, and Salem stations in particular, which is the company that we look into, they're super savvy.

These are really well-run businesses oftentimes, and they're reaching people on social media. They're reaching people on podcasts. They're pretty ahead of the curve or at least up with the curve when it comes to making sure that they're continuing to reach their audiences wherever their audiences are. I would also note that the AM dial actually has more diverse ownership than the FM dial. While we think of the AM dial as being a haven for conservative talk, it's also a haven for a variety of other perspectives, of other opinions of music. It is seen as the more accessible band to get into as an owner. I think that that loss has been left out of that conversation as well.

Brian Lehrer: There we have to leave it with Katie Thornton, host of On the Media's series, The Divided Dial, independent journalist, public historian, Fulbright Fellow, and now Peabody winner. Kate, congratulations again. Thanks a lot for coming on.

Katie Thornton: Thanks for talking with me, Brian. Great to talk with you.

Brian Lehrer: Again, listeners, a program note, we will air a compilation of the whole series in a special coming up this Saturday from noon to 4:00 here on WNYC.

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