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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Let me give you some of the latest developments in the war in Ukraine. This, of course, is continuing moment by moment to day six of Russia's invasion of Ukraine and Russia's assault on Ukrainian civilians as well as military installations in the city of Kharkiv today. A Russian cruise missile reportedly hit the main square known as Freedom Square signaling Putin's increasing willingness to target civilian areas.

In Kyiv, Ukrainians are bracing for an intensified offensive from Russia as a 40-mile long convoy of Russian military vehicles on the outskirts of the capital prepares for attack. According to the Pentagon, the intelligence suggests that Putin and Russia want to "decapitate", their word, the democratically elected Ukrainian government if they take control of Kyiv.

Last night, some US senators had an intelligence briefing on Ukraine. Afterwards, Chris Murphy from Connecticut tweeted that "The fight for Kyiv will be long and bloody," while Lindsey Graham of South Carolina said that he expects a scorched earth policy to unfold here in the coming days regarding Ukraine. "I expect wholesale slaughter of Ukrainian citizens by the Russian military," said Lindsey Graham. He and our local Democrat, Chris Murphy, not disagreeing very much on this.

On the ground, families are still trying to flee to friendly borders in what is quickly becoming a refugee crisis, while other ordinary citizens stay behind and take up arms to defeat the invaders of their country.

Meanwhile, yesterday, Ukraine submitted pay paperwork to the EU. Another clear message that the country has chosen the West as Russia tries to impose itself onto Ukraine. Here's a clip of Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy addressing the EU parliament today. Pardon the choppiness of the translation here in this 30-second clip.

Translator: Our people are very much motivated, very much so. We are fighting for our rights, for our freedoms, for life, for our life, and now we are fighting for survival. This is the highest of our motivation, but we are fighting also to be equal members of Europe. I believe that today we are showing everybody that's exactly what we are.

Brian Lehrer: President Zelenskyy, through a translator. Joining us now is Ukrainian journalist, Nataliya Gumenyuk. She specializes in international security and conflict reporting and is founder of the Public Interest Journalism Lab. Nataliya, thank you so much for giving us some time, and welcome to WNYC. Hello from New York.

Nataliya Gumenyuk: Good evening from Kyiv, the city I live, the city I am now.

Brian Lehrer: I understand you drove around Kyiv today. What did it feel like?

Nataliya Gumenyuk: That's something I probably want to share. There was a curfew for a couple of days and there is a limited logistic. I'm a journalist, I have credential, and it's striking that's a lot something to explain, especially for your audience in New York and elsewhere. Just a week ago, Kyiv is one of the funniest towns in Europe. For the last years, it's like this hipsterish capital and just now I was driving where, in some parts, there were reminiscent of shelling. I've been to the train station where indeed a lot of people were trying to leave.

By the way, first of all, these are not all the people. These are the people who are mainly kids or elderly or women who probably should understand that they need to leave. Everybody else, there are some people who are coming, for instance, especially men because they think that it's up to them to defend.

The city is full of checkpoints because a lot of civilians-- and they could be barbers, barmen, musicians, artists, journalists, lawyers who joining this civic defense or territorial defense in their region, it's really painful. I'm conflict reporter. I've been to different places. I'm in different wars. To observe just understanding that it's happening all over the place, we have won very much.

Just now there was the attack on the TV tower. My closest friend is running news on the public broadcaster. There were five people killed. She's dealing with that just to describe how close the situation is to all of us. There are sometimes sirens. The last days were a bit calmer than we expected because the biggest issue is that there are air strikes and the concerns are there could be airstrikes on the civilian areas.

If during the first days, Russia tried to target military objects. In that, I've seen with my eyes that sometimes they want to shell a military object but in there there would be a residential building hit that could be this punishment operation to cover the city with bombardments.

Now the city is not yet encircled. There are attempts, just something to also explain. It's a big town, but from all over the place in the suburban areas, not even suburban, the towns a bit outside of the capital, there were attempts to overtake the airfield or something by the Russian troops to bring more people from to capture Kyiv. It was not yet successful. It's not yet encircled. This risk of airstrikes on the civilians is, unfortunately, really real. It's every day a bit there, but with every day, we understand it's growing.

Brian Lehrer: Do you think it's inevitable what Senator Murphy said that the fight for Kyiv will be long and bloody or what Senator Graham said that he expects a scorched earth policy to unfold in the coming days regarding Ukraine, wholesale slaughter of Ukrainian citizens by the Russian military?

Nataliya Gumenyuk: Look, I wouldn't use the word inevitable. The cost might be high. I might sound wishful thinking, but I'm a Ukrainian, I'm staying, it's my town, and there is a lot of confidence in people. The problem is indeed that, so far, Ukrainian Air Defense actually managed to stop quite a lot of strikes. The question is to what extent Russia was limiting its option? Have they already done the most of it? They do have capability, but stopping is still possible. Deterring is possible.

For me, somebody covering human rights, somebody who was always reporting the wars from this angle of humanitarian situation and civilians, it's partially, not painful, but it's hard always to argue for the importance of weaponry. Again, the tanks in our case, entire tank missiles, or these air defense system, that's exactly the only thing today. It's really the only thing which saves human lives.

Brian Lehrer: I saw you had an op-ed in the Washington Post a few days ago called The Saddest Irony of Putin's War. In it, you described how Russians and Ukrainians know and understand each other, but this war is showing differences between the two countries. I saw other reporting that indicated that there were polls in both countries that show 60%, 80% of Russians like Ukrainians and Ukrainians like Russians. Somebody commented Putin is forcing a war among people who like each other. Can you expand on that?

Nataliya Gumenyuk: I think that the damage to this is already done. That would be very hard to explain any longer to Ukrainians because Ukrainian president, before everything started, some hours before the start of the war, the assault on Kyiv, made this appeal to the Russian citizens that, "Do it. Call to your president. Call to everybody. What is possible, protest against that," and it didn't happen.

There were a lot of calls from the Ukrainian artists, from the Ukrainians themselves because there are a lot of relatives, families. Ukrainian artists were pretty successful in Russia. We do understand that there are people who are detained in Russia protesting, but they are still not many.

Unfortunately, it's also, by the way, worth to mention that there is another country now who is captured by Moscow. I'm speaking about the Belarus also. It's the Ukrainian Northern neighborhood, which today started the full-scale invasion because the tanks are coming from Belarus. It's another authoritarian regime, which they're joined together to just attack. There was calls. The Ukrainian president also made a call to Belarusian citizens because we know that there is opposition to this regime. They can do little. I'm honestly saying they can do little, but still I think it's important to have these calls to the people who probably, at least, can influence, maybe even did.

Brian Lehrer: In your Washington Post piece, you wrote, "To Putin, democracy means chaos. That's how he views democracy. He's desperate to depict us as a failed state. We're determined to prove him wrong." Talk about Ukraine and why Putin and some people who speak for him should not think of Ukraine as a failed state.

Nataliya Gumenyuk: I think it's very interesting to see it now, but probably something to mention, we're talking using this term invasion of Ukraine, occupation of Ukraine, which, for me, is something I would still say that it's not inevitable. We see the residents of the smaller towns stopping and deterring Russian tanks barehanded, but because they are people, they are citizens, they are capable to do that.

By that, imagine the country at such a dire moment when a country size of France is bombarded everywhere, but from any town I see, in Odessa in the south or in the west where people helping Ukrainians from Kyiv or elsewhere to relocate, there is a support and logistics organized. There is this real people's power. Ukrainians are the people who are usually critical of the government. It's something in our blood. It's very normal, but even now, I think people have never been so united, the support to the president, support-- just everything in such a dire situation, all the rich people-- I have just seen, into the place where some super-rich guy in his Porsche came and brought pharmaceutical things to the law enforcement and he stays. People stays.

For instance, Ukrainian IT in cooperation with the Ministry of Defense, they created the app to explain how the air raids are-- that people should hear the alerts in case there is no something, the signal on the radio. The army is organizing itself through the law enforcement. We're looking at these mayors of these small towns who are targeted. It's probably way harder somewhere in Mariupol and on the Azovs. They are organizing.

The former prime minister who is in opposition and this is a manager guy is just shows how to make Molotov cocktails. In a way, we're in this situation where, fortunately, we didn't know-- I know it's taken hard, but we still have WiFi, internet, we still have connections, we still have electricity and water. There is a need by the business to organize something if it's necessary to the army or to the civilians.

We're just saying, it's functioning, the society and even the state, during the crisis moments. What should we say? For me, as a journalist who is critical, who is criticizing sometimes the government or something, at this moment, I see that the fiercest criticism saying, "We see how everybody does his best, everybody." People we even didn't count on, they stayed. They stayed with their people, celebrities, millionaires, usual people. Of course, there were vulnerable people who need help. Of course, I should also admit that.

Brian Lehrer: It's an inspiration the way you describe it in that grassroots way, but in our last 30 seconds, how does this end? Is there a negotiated peace possible where, I don't know, maybe Russia gets the eastern part of the country and leaves everybody else alone, or is it going to be guerilla warfare for years after the tanks roll in? We have 20 seconds. How does this end?

Nataliya Gumenyuk: Ukrainians will fight until the very end. Again, we're thinking that that would be the end of Putin, but the price would be high and the Ukrainians would pay it first. Freeing Russians, freeing Belarusians, freeing the others, but with a very dire price of the Ukrainian civilian lives and military lives, first of all.

Brian Lehrer: May it not be that hard. Ukrainian journalist Nataliya Gumenyuk joining us live from Kyiv. Thank you so much for giving us some time. Good luck to you and everybody there.

Nataliya Gumenyuk: Thank you.

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