[MUSIC]

Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. We're going to talk now, as we've had to do too many times recently about the expanding red-state/blue-state divide on culture war issues and what adults and children may or may not do in increasing numbers of states with some news from this week.

Just this week, we have the Governor of Oklahoma signing a ban on gender-affirming care for minors, that's even when their parents and doctors agree that the treatment is in the best interest of the team. We have the North Carolina legislature overriding their governor's veto of a bill restricting abortion rights. The same governor of Oklahoma, who I just mentioned, vetoed the license renewal for the PBS television network in the state because he says PBS indoctrinates and sexualizes children, PBS. You must think the Ron DeSantis attack on Disney in Florida is a political win.

For his part, DeSantis is preparing to enter the presidential race next week by all accounts, by banning diversity, equity, and inclusion programs at the state's Public colleges, approving social studies textbooks for lower grades that used to include the word race, but now have removed it, expanding the so-called don't say gay bill, up to eighth grade, banning gender-affirming care that parents and doctors and teens all agree on, like in Oklahoma, and signing an abortion ban that kicks in at six weeks.

Have you heard about this one with his state education department investigating a teacher? It's for showing a Disney film for kids in class that includes a gay character. It has come to that, even the simple inclusion of a gay character and some of his story in a Disney movie for kids shown in a fifth-grade class can get a teacher investigated by the state education department in Florida. It was the animated Disney film Strange World. Some of you know it. I think we have a clip of the teacher here, Jenna Barbie, on CNN on Wednesday, explaining that it was relevant to the specific curriculum about earth science that she was teaching the students about earlier this month.

Jenna Barbie: I was never trying to indoctrinate my students by showing them something that had differences in diversity. I was showing them a movie that related to our curriculum and our earth, that also taught many valuable life lessons that also correlate to our Florida best standards.

Brian Lehrer: Jenna Barbie, who teaches fifth grade in Hernando County, Florida, that's a little north of Tampa. With us now is Sommer Brugal, K-12 education reporter for The Miami Herald. Sommer, thanks a lot for some time today. Welcome to WNYC.

Sommer Brugal: Thanks so much for having me.

Brian Lehrer: For those who haven't seen it, what's the Disney movie, Strange World's about? Tell us more about the context of showing it to that fifth-grade class.

Sommer Brugal: Admittedly, I haven't actually seen the movie but I have spoken to the teacher who you just played right now and the issue surrounding it is, or the crux of the issue is like you mentioned, that it is Disney's first movie that has an openly gay character. In Florida last year there was a law that was signed and went into effect this year that limited discussions around gender identity and sexual orientation through third grade and higher grades, and it needed to be appropriate for higher grade levels. The issue that stemmed from this, and I do want to say the Tallahassee Democrat was the first to report on this story was that the gay character potentially violated state law in showing it to fifth-grade students.

Like you mentioned or like the clip just showed, the teacher, Jenna, she said that the movie fell in line with what she was discussing about, about earth science with her students. She didn't even think twice about the character or about the storyline with the character because she just focused on what the movie and what the topics were about and how it related to her in-classroom discussions about earth science. While I can't necessarily comment on the movie itself. I can comment on the fallout from that decision.

Brian Lehrer: I've seen enough of Strange Worlds to know that it's a very inclusive film, like the teacher said in the clip. It has all kinds of kids in it, and apparently the gay character was the only one that raised a complaint from one of the parents that led to the state investigation of the teacher. Your latest article I see is called, State May Question Florida's Students Who Watched Disney Film with Gay Character in Class. What questions would they ask the kids?

Sommer Brugal: We're not entirely sure what questions they were proposing. The letter that I obtained in the days that followed the initial story publishing, I believe it was Sunday, that just was sent home to the parents and said we could be questioning your son and daughter unless you have opposition to that. I can't necessarily comment on the questions that they could be asked. The department did say that that would be the first time that they would be visiting.

The teacher did tell me that last week after the initial school board comments that she made, that students from her classroom were pulled out to be questioned by school administration. She also didn't know what questions were being asked of them, but she did say that they had been questioned by school staff.

Brian Lehrer: What could happen to the teacher?

Sommer Brugal: She could potentially lose her license, but as we've reported, she had already submitted her letter of resignation prior to all of this happening. She has no plans to reenter the classroom next year either way, but teachers could face being potentially de-certified, I believe if they are found I guess to be in violation.

Brian Lehrer: Do you know if her resignation before this incident was relevant or irrelevant to the state's enlarging culture war policies for fifth-grade classes?

Sommer Brugal: We did talk about that a little when we spoke. I think they definitely played into it, just like a lot of teachers in the state, across the state are trying to deal with the new laws. I think for her, a lot of it had to do with just the inability-- She was a therapist, a behavior therapist and the specific title is slipping me right now, but she focused a lot on group work and group therapy and behavioral therapy to really focus on student positive behaviors, positive outlooks and things like that.

I think based on our discussion, I think that she was frustrated that there wasn't a lot of time for that in the classroom because there's so many standards, because there's so many testing tests that occur and there's so many requirements that it's often hard for her or was hard for her to make time and make space for those other discussions that I think she really wanted to bring into the classroom and why she chose to come into the classroom in the first place.

Like I said, I think a lot of teachers across the state are really struggling with how to navigate these new laws, but I can't say necessarily confidently that that was the main reason why she decided to resign.

Brian Lehrer: If you're just joining us, listeners, we're speaking with Sommer Brugal, K-12 education reporter for The Miami Herald about expanding DeSantis culture war in education policies in the State of Florida, particularly about this one story of a fifth-grade teacher in Hernando County, north of Tampa, being investigated for showing a Disney film to her fifth-grade class that was about earth science and the earth science curriculum, or relevant to the earth science curriculum that she was teaching, but that included a gay character and has led that teacher to be investigated by the state.

This happened because a parent complained and then the state took it, as I understand it. Assuming the complaining parent didn't object to all the other kinds of diversity in the movie, there was racial diversity and other kinds of diversity, she only wants LGBTQ characters banned from diverse content shown to her kid?

Sommer Brugal: I can't speak for the individual who I guess raised the concerns. We have seen the focus of, in recent legislation and in recent conversations that we've had around the state both that I've had with teachers and parents, and that we've seen in legislative bodies discussing these new laws, discussions around sexual orientation and gender have really been at the forefront in the last couple months and years, along with race and equity and all these DEI efforts. But I do think in recent discussions, ideas around students, particularly young students discussing things around sexual orientation and gender identity has been a top of mind or at least the-- I don't know how to phrase it, but a main issue, I guess, when we see book challenges, and when we see discourse surrounding what is or isn't age appropriate.

Brian Lehrer: Expanding from this case, I see that Governor DeSantis signed an expansion this week of the so-called 'Don't Say Gay' law. Can you explain what's in the new bill, and who's newly covered?

Sommer Brugal: Yes. Last year the legislative session ended or successfully passed what is known as the Parental Rights in Education, which critics have dubbed the 'Don't Say Gay' Bill, and that title has taken hold in what people really recognize the bill as. That initially limited discussions around gender identity and sexual orientation for students in grades K through 3. In that bill, it also said any grades above that, it would have to be age appropriate.

What we're seeing this year is that that is now expanded to be now inclusive of students from K through 8th grade, and it prohibits any of those discussions. It also restricts the way that teachers and the students can use their pronouns in schools, and it bars teachers from asking a student about their pronoun, and any conversation that would come from that. That's the crux of that expansion.

Brian Lehrer: You said that's called the Parental Rights in Education Bill. This may be a little bit outside your beat as a K through 12 education reporter, but DeSantis also signed the bill this week banning gender-affirming care like to delay puberty for trans teenagers even when their parents and doctors agree it's the best thing. I'm just curious if anyone has asked him, to your knowledge, if as a Republican he thinks the state should be limiting parental rights like that especially when his other bill restricting conversation about LGBTQ people is called the Parental Rights Bill.

Sommer Brugal: Yes, you're definitely right. That's a little out of my expertise area, but I do know my colleagues and reporters from across the state have been reporting on this. In conversations that I have as it relates to parental rights, and even perhaps that bill that you just mentioned, as well, is I think the issue that comes up in the conversation and the questions that come up is, which parents' rights are we talking about when we talk about either the education bills or the bill that you just mentioned and now law, which parents' rights are at the forefront of the discussion and which parents' rights are being considered when we talk about decision-making for our youth?

I can't necessarily say that I have because I haven't covered that topic, but yes, I do think that that has been used to push back slightly, or to push back on the governor and the administration to say when you say parents' rights matter, which rights are you referring to and which parents do you have in mind when you're talking about these issues.

Brian Lehrer: I see your last couple of articles before this story were about Florida deleting race and social justice from textbooks. How did they do that?

Sommer Brugal: Book reviews are nothing new. It's done over a five-year process, or every five years a different subject matter is tackled, if you will, but this was the latest topic. Social studies was the latest issue to be revised away from common core into what is now known as the best standards. We have been anticipating this list for quite some time. We knew that the department would be releasing what would be approved. Just for some context, school districts use this list to choose and select books that they are going to use for the classrooms in their district.

When this list was first announced, I believe it was last week, losing track of time, but 66 books were on this list out of 101 books that were submitted for approval. I think it's important to note that initially the department said that only 19 titles had been initially approved, and we got to that 66 number because the department says that they worked with publishers to update the materials that met Florida standards.

They don't necessarily say what was removed, what was added, things like that, but what we can see is that those updates included removals of any mention of race, any mention of diversity, any mention of examples of calls for social justice, discussions around the Black Lives Movement, and any references to the murder of George Floyd.

That's what we saw is that we saw that of this 66 initially approved books in order to get to that number to begin with, the department worked with publishers to, seems like, remove certain topics surrounding ideas of race, racism, examples of police brutality, and anything that hinted at political discourse, if you will.

Brian Lehrer: For listeners who don't know this whole list of things, their eyes must be popping out of their heads right now. You can't say gay. You can't say George Floyd. Parents don't have the rights with their teens and doctors to decide on gender-affirming care. You can't get an abortion in Florida anymore after six weeks in almost every case.

One more. What's the DeSantis law on diversity, equity, and inclusion programs now? Again, this may be off your beat because it's higher education, but to the extent that you know, that's also new this week, right?

Sommer Brugal: Yes, that was signed, I think it was on Monday, along with a couple of other bills that he signed that really do focus on, like you said, the higher education. What that bill does, again, now law, it restricts certain topics from being taught in the low-level or lower-level general education courses that students typically take in their first or second year. It also expands the hiring and firing practices and power of the university boards. It limits the colleges and universities' spending related to diversity, equity, and inclusion programs.

Some of those topics that are removed are ideas around critical race theory, systematic racism, oppression and things like that, from really being discussed in those initial courses that students have to take, in many cases. That's a very general overview of that bill.

Brian Lehrer: Last thing, Sommer. Now that we put all these recent developments in Florida on the table, as DeSantis gets ready to enter the presidential race, he's got all these things going on that we've been discussing, and there are more and more states just like this, we should say, especially in the South, I'm just curious if on your beat as an education reporter, you started to run into parents who say they want to move?

Sommer Brugal: Yes. Yes. I've spoken to many parents who say they want to move. I think the reality for many is that they might not have the financial means. They might not have a support system elsewhere. It just might not be feasible, but I know my colleagues have spoken to college students who have contemplated transferring. I've spoken to seniors and juniors who I think at one point would have liked to go to a Florida school and might very well end up in a Florida higher education institution because Florida does have Bright Futures Program, which is an incredible program that gives scholarships to students, but yes, I have had many conversations with parents, students both at the K through 12 level, and I know my colleagues have at the higher education level who have very much considered or at least expressed desire to seek education elsewhere.

In terms of teachers that I've spoken to, I think when we lump all of these bills and new laws together, I think what you hear from a lot of teachers is the concern around recruitment and retention efforts in the future, especially as Florida already deals with, and Miami-Dade already deals with teacher shortages, and trouble recruiting and retaining teachers. The concern is that these bills, and these laws, and these restrictions are only going to make it harder for districts to attract and retain teachers moving forward.

Brian Lehrer: Another indication, folks, that there may be a new great sorting of Americans who have the ability to move into states where they feel comfortable. Sommer Brugal reports on K through 12 education for The Miami Herald. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Sommer Brugal: Thank you so much. Have a great day.

Copyright © 2023 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.