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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. If you've been obsessed with election news, you may not be up to date on this truly life-and-death failure of the government that seems to be only getting worse in New York City. The question is, why are so many people dying in New York city jails? So far this year, 18 people have died in the jail system, making it the deadliest year since 2013. Back then twice as many people were incarcerated, so the rate is much, much higher. Last year, 16 people died in the system, this year and other 18 already.

A member-led project called Freedom Agenda, affiliated with a nonprofit advocacy organization the Urban Justice Center, is organizing people and communities impacted by the series of crises that have made New York City Jail so deadly. We'll talk now about this tragic year at Rikers and other facilities with Darren Mack, co-director of the Urban Justice Center's freedom agenda, and Lezandre Khadu, mother of Stephan Khadu, one of the 16 men who died in custody at Rikers Island last year. Welcome to WNYC. Both of you, thank you very much for coming on.

Darren Mack: Good morning, Brian, thank you so much for having us.

Miss Lezandre Khadu: Good morning.

Brian Lehrer: First of all, Ms. Khadu I just want to express my condolences for the loss of your son. Do you want to say a few words to the public about who he was? What would you like our listeners to know about him before we talk about the issues?

Lezandre Khadu: I would like the whole world to know that my son, Stefan, he was a human being. He was the most caring and helpful, loving person that anyone would have come in contact. What I want the world to know is that my son would have did what was right, my son would have helped whoever was in need. If the situation was on the other foot, to what happened to my son, one of the guards, or someone in there, my son would have done what was right. What a human being should have done, which was help and assist. I just want the whole world to know that 9/22/2021, it took away something that is priceless, not only to us, myself, my family, to the world.

He was somebody that would have done great in this world, regardless of anything that he had done. His presence in his world was very well needed. My son, again, was a helping person.

Brian Lehrer: I know you've talked about it publicly so I'll ask. How did he die in custody last year and what was it that you were just referring to that you think he would have done if the shoe was on the other foot that wasn't done?

Lezandre Khadu: Basically help human life. The fact that my son died from meningitis, something that could have been prevented if the system, DoC, did what was right, as in helping. If these people are not coming to work to make sure that my son gets the attention that he needs while he's in here, even if it's just helping, asking for help, or getting to the medics, those people are not doing right by going to work. If my son took that oath to go to work and do right by those people, my son would have went to work. My son would have not left hundreds of people unattended to.

When I say that my son would have helped, my son would have did what was right. My son would have went to work. When people needed to get some medical, my son would have took them. If someone needed to get to court, my son would have took them. The fact that my son was there sick, and no one cared. They just assumed that it was a joke. They assumed that he was playing. I know that they said to other young men, "You are a doctor now?" Just because they were saying that Stefan needed to get some medic.

Brian Lehrer: Darren Mack from the Urban Justice Center. I wonder if you might also tell us some of the names of the people who have died in city jails so far this year. Just so we say those names out loud and not leave them as just part of a statistic.

Darren Mack: Yes. Thank you so much for having me. So many people as you said 18 people lost their lives on Rikers Island this year. Some of the names we have, Gregory Acevedo that's someone who passed away on Rikers Island. We also have folks like Gilberto Garcia, who died at the Anna M. Kross facility this year. There's so many, countless. Herman Diaz, Dashawn Carter, George Pagan, Mary Yehudah. Mary Yehuda was a woman who was forced. Wasn't diagnosed, she died from medical neglect, at the soul of jail Rikers for wome or Rikers Island this year.

It's so many lives of so many families that are impacted by this. Elijah Muhammad, Robert Poindexter.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for those. Listeners, we can take a few phone calls in this segment on the deadly last few years in city jails and the many crises that have intersected to lead to this moment. I know we get calls from Rikers sometimes, I don't know if you're listening in Rikers right now if you can get access to a phone this quick, but if you're currently there, and want to describe conditions, such that they may lead to more people dying in city custody. Of course, city custody is supposed to protect the general community from you, perhaps, but it's also supposed to protect you, they are responsible for you.

What do you see at Rikers that's leading to this awful spate of deaths? 34 in custody in the last two years alone? 212-433 WNYC, or anyone else may call, 212-433-9692. You can also call with a question for our guests, Darren Mack, co-director of the Urban Justice Center's freedom agenda, and Lezandre Khadu mother of Stefan Khadu who, as she was just describing, died in custody at Rikers last year of meningitis. 212-433 WNYC, 433-9692, or tweet @Brianlehrer. Darren Mack, how did we get to this point? Why are we at this point?

Darren Mack: Rikers Island, for those who don't know, Rikers Island is a jail complex, it's not a prison. 90% of the people incarcerated there at Rikers are awaiting trial and many because they can't afford bail. Rikers for decades, even going back to the Cotch administration when the late, great Herb Stern, who was the founder of the [unintelligible 00:07:53] Institute, was the deputy mayor of criminal justice, had made calls to close Rikers Island. The same fear-mongering, and that we see today, as advocates to close Rikers, beat back that decision, that move to close Rikers decades ago.

It was out of sight out of mind, but it wasn't it until survivors of records like myself, family members of people experienced writers and allies, built a grassroots movement so broad, that basically changed New Yorkers' hearts and minds, and put a spotlight on Rikers Island and came to the conclusion that Rikers Island cannot be fixed, Rikers Island cannot be reformed. The immediate solution right now is decarceration and the ultimate solution is closure. The 2019 city council voted to close Rikers Island by 2027 but we need to accelerate that. Also, as the mayor always says, we need to make investments and communities that are historically under-resourced to close the pipelines to incarceration.

There's been a federal monitoring reconciler for years and he put out a report every year and something that already survivors of Rikers already knew about the dysfunction and management, the chronic absenteeism, as Lezandre mentioned, of staff not coming to work. There has been no accountability or too little accountability. People incarcerated, people depend on staff, jail guards, for everything to take them to their medical appointments, as Lezandre mentioned, to take them to the court, to take them to visit, to get food. Because of this chronic staff absenteeism, the crisis has exacerbated. So many people are suffering every day and now we have one of the deadliest years in the Department of Corrections history with 18 people who lost their lives.

Brian Lehrer: Ms. Khadu, before your son Stefan died at Rikers, though you were describing his death as being caused by medical neglect, I understood that he also described witnessing various kinds of violence and disorder in the facility. Can you discuss at all what he has said to you in the past, what he had said to you?

Lezandre Khadu: I remember speaking to my son one time on the phone, and I heard screaming in the back. After like two, three minutes I said, "Stefan, what is going on?" I could clearly hear the person saying, "Open my cell." I said, what is going on, Pop? He said, "Ma, they in here wilding. They got me in like a mental health unit." I said, "What do you mean by that?

He said, "Ma, they was supposed to been changing my house and they put me in this area where everybody's crazy." I said, "Why they got you there?" He said, "Ma, they basically playing with your boy, but I'm okay." I said, "Why is that person screaming?" This was Tuesday. I'll never forget it. He said, "Because they've been locked in they cell since Friday." Again, if this is Tuesday, they've been locked in they cell Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. "Why are they locked in they cell?" He's like, "Ma, because they just not opening it and nobody cares."

Just simple thing as in he needed a, I guess they sleep on a cot and like a metal mattress, like a metal frame and a cot. He needed a new cot. He couldn't get that. He's like, mom, writing everybody. No one is literally responding it. It was just horrible. At times when I would speak to my son, he starts coughing and I'm like, "What is going on Pop?" I could hear commotion in the back. He's like, "Just regular Ma. They coming in here spraying." As a mother, I'm like, "Wait, what do you mean that's regular?" He's like, "Ma, that ain't got nothing to do with me. Don't worry. Keep talking to me."

The things that my son had to indulge in there was not fair and it was not cool for anyone to have to suffer for that. No one should be put in that place where lives are being taken away every second, every day.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Here is Reverend Forsan McClennan in the Bronx calling in. Reverend, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Reverend McClennan: Hello. I just have a question to ask and anyone can answer it. Who is being held accountable for the tragedies of 34 people being died or being incarcerated? Is anybody being held accountable? If so, who? Who's responsible, for this keeps happening yet?

Brian Lehrer: Darren, who is ultimately responsible and how can they be held accountable?

Darren Mack: Well, the department of correction is ran by Commissioner Molina and Commissioner Molina's boss is the mayor, Eric Adams. The mayor ran his campaign that he said he was going close Rikers. That's what the campaign he ran on. As the old saying, a broken clock is correct at least twice a day. He has been moving forward with the Borough Base plan to close Rikers out. We need to accelerate that. He needs to adapt to the other part of the plan which is to reduce the population on Rikers Island. It's a thousand people right now on Rikers Island that has serious mental health issues. They should be in therapeutic setting, not in jail. That's the dysfunction of out of this is the Department of Corrections system.

We need to be diverting people away from Rikers Island, which has basically became like Russian roulette the New Yorkers, and addressing the needs or the most vulnerable populations like those people with serious mental health challenges. It's the mayor. Like I said, this year's been deadest year in Rikers history and it is not being treated like a human rights crisis. The mayor need to take stop talking about closing Rikers and actually doing it

Brian Lehrer: Barra in Park Slope. You're on WNYC. Hello Barra.

Barra: Hi, it's Rabbi Barra Elman. Hi. Thank you Brian. I love your show Darren. I just want to say hi. We work together a lot with Freedom Agenda. I think the question you're asking, why are so many people dying in New York City jails? It's clear that it's just the population is something that our city evidently doesn't care about. Black and brown people, both the people who are incarcerated and also the correctional officers are, as Jimani Williams will say, from the same neighborhoods. I think that the, going back to the mayor, this is really on him because his attitude towards incarceration is incredibly cavalier. He's actually been advocating and more incarceration for more small petty things like turnstile jumping.

I don't think he takes it seriously. He may give lip service periodically to closing, but he doesn't take it seriously. He is culpable ultimately, as is commissioner Molina, that this is just, this outrage is unspeakable. A lot of other people are out there trying to, trying to make it evident. I'm so grateful you're bringing this episode on, this issue on today.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much for the call. Faith community really showing up here. First caller was a reverend, the second caller was a rabbi. Darren, to her point, I think the mayor says crime is higher than it was in 2017, 2018, 2019. The number of people jailed for crime is going to go up. We saw the election results around the state where a lot of people think that not enough people are being jailed for crimes that are really threatening to people right now. When the caller says don't put more people in jail because that's adding to the conditions of overcrowding with respect to the ratio of corrections officers and things like that. Is the mayor caught between a hard place rock and a hard place?

Darren Mack: Well, I don't think the mayor's been stuck in between a rock and a hard place. I think if we look at the data, not what a headline says, if we look at the data, we actually at historic lows when it comes to crime in New York City.

Brian Lehrer: Well, relative to 30 years ago, but not relative to four years ago. Right?

Darren Mack: Yes. We could have public safety and decarceration simultaneously, but it's relative to 10 years ago. We could have public safety and decarceration safely at the same time. They both don't conflict with each other. I think like, that listener's concern is that the things that we need to do is what voters had put him into office to do. There was a historic citywide public survey that was done this year. It was the largest public survey in New York City history. The top two things that New Yorkers prioritized was affordable housing and mental health treatment for the most vulnerable population in our city. The mayor has not delivered on either one of them.

If he focused on what New Yorkers want, and those things would close the pipelines to incarceration and address the roots of incarceration, with investments in communities. He said it himself, that we need to close the pipeline to incarceration and that comes with investments. That's why in 2019, the commission, the city council also voted to establish what's known as the Commission of Community Investments. I'm a member on the youth subcommittee. We published our first budget recommendations this year in March to close those pipelines of incarceration.

We are waiting for the main response to that and also the reconvening of this commission which is chaired by Commissioner Gary Jenkins, who's the head of the Department of Social Services.

Brian Lehrer: Ms. Khadu, did I hear you trying to get in there? Did you want to add something to that?

Lezandre Khadu: Yes. The start of decarceration and closing down the jail will start with our problems in our community. Problems in our community. We need affordable housing, we need jobs, we need programs for kids. We need after school programs. We need free tutoring, we need free after school program. We need mental health. We need mental health program, we need mental health housing, we need mental health needs a solution. Jail is not the solution. When I get sick and I go to the hospital because I have a cold they help me. When you have a mental issue and go to the hospital they send you to jail.

Nine out of 10, you set for disaster because, again, no one is there to talk to you, because you need a counselor, no one is there to get you these therapeutic sessions you need, no one is there to take this person who is having a mental issue to the doctor. When they just need a little simple thing as a piece of candy, because that's more like a pill, just to give to them to keep their mind in a certain state. Like he said, the investment does start from home. Before we get to this jail, it's outside what's going on. If people do not want to invest in our communities, this is when we end up with nothing.

Just like he said, the first thing in that survey what people complained about was housing and mental issues, and no one has done anything. They're sending these people that need help into jail, and then they're having these outbursts, and then they're dying, and then they're saying, "They had a mental breakdown and they killed themself." That's not the reason. When they were begging for help at a hospital, the hospital turned their backs away and said, "Hey, we don't want to deal with this. Call the police." Soon as a mental person has a breakdown, there's not a psychiatrist that comes on-site. If I'm having a mental breakdown because I think the people are coming out the walls, I don't want to see an officer coming up to me with a firearm or a taser.

I want someone to understand what I'm going through and help me. When I'm complaining that I'm sick, and I go to the hospital, a nurse comes and triage me. Not a person with a blue uniform on and a gun saying that I have to put my hands behind my back. Again, someone needs to take accountability for this. Someone needs to stop what is going on. Like he said, this is a human crisis. It's happening right in front of us and no one is taking accountability. No one is saying, "Hey, close these jails down, decarcerate as of yesterday and today."

Brian Lehrer: Let's end on the question of accountability. A listener tweets, "Thanks for continued coverage of Rikers' horrors. I was aclinical social worker in a New York State Prison. If a patient of mine died in the prison, my job would be on the line." Jay in Queens is going to be our last caller. Jay, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Jay: Hello, sir. I just have to tell you two points, and why I think what needs to be done to put a stop to it. If the officers were held accountable, and the manager and the commanders of these officers at these jails are held accountable, such as suspended, put on trial or fired, or sent to jail for their neglect and their inaction, then we wouldn't have this stuff going on. That would send them strict. This stuff would straighten out right away. The reason why we have this stuff going on is because the officers are not held accountable for their action.

These situations, they could have used their common sense and handle it by just getting the person helped, send them to the doctor to see if they need help or not. Not only that, also, we need to also reform the medical system in the jail, because the people they sent into work as medical people they say tend to be the lowest ones, the bottom of the barrel. No hospital would accept them. We need to make the medical people and supervisors in the jail accountable.

Brian Lehrer: Jay, thank you very much. A lot of people, Darren, and you'll get the last word, have been referring to the absenteeism. A caller who we don't have time for is hanging on to say, "Surprised to hear that correction officers get unlimited days off, paid by taxpayer dollars." I know your first choice policy response is more decarceration, but we're not in that moment right now, with more people going to prison, with more crime being committed, to jail I should say, while they're awaiting trial. In the meantime, corrections officers aren't showing up for work at the ratio that many people would say would keep those incarcerated more safe. I wonder if you have a comment on that? Then we're out of time.

Darren Mack: Yes. Rikers Island is not safe for those who are detained and those who work there. The Protection of Human Rights is a bedrock principle internationally, but sadly, 2022 is one of the deadliest years in the history of Department of Correction. the dysfunction, the chronic staff absenteeism, and a lack of accountability has intensified. That's why advocates, over 130 partners signed on to the campaign to close Rikers. We also are on board with a campaign called Treatment not Jail, where people who suffer from serious mental health issues to get treatment, not jail.

The mayor must take immediate action to start releasing people, starting with the most vulnerable population, those who have serious mental health issues. Consolidate operations, so your staff can be there for those who are detained and meet the basic minimum standards and protect the rights of people in the city jails now.

Brian Lehrer: Darren Mack, co-director of the Urban Justice Center's Freedom Agenda, a member-led project organizing communities impacted by incarceration, and Lezandre Khadu, mother of Stephan Khadu, one of the 16 men who died in custody at Rikers Island last year. There have been 18 more deaths at city jails already this year. Thank you both so much for having this important conversation with us this morning.

Darren Mack: Thanks for having us.

Lezandre Khadu: Thank you.

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