Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC we'll return now to our coverage of the New York state attorney General's report on governor Cuomo's behavior toward women plus retaliation and toxic workplace charges and the fallout since the report came out 24 hours ago. With us now is journalist Lauren Nahmias recently of the Daily News editorial board, who now has a sub staff newsletter called Fun City. She also has an article today in New York Magazine. She previously covered Albany for Politico. Hi, Laura. Welcome back to WNYC.

Laura Nahmias: Hi Brian. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: First of all, is there anything new to report just in the last few hours with everybody from president Biden to Lieutenant governor Hochul calling on a Cuomo? Well, Hochul didn't quite say resigned, but she said she believes the women and the report shows shocking behavior. Pretty much everybody who's a Democrat and I guess by default, everybody who's a Republican is saying Cuomo should resign. Has he said anything yet?

Laura Nahmias: We haven't heard anything from his office yet this morning, I think in just the last few minutes another pillar of his support has abandoned him the president of DC 37, very powerful union issued a statement calling on him to resign. That is a pretty significant development in the loss of support. No words yet beyond the pre-taped video that we saw yesterday and the 85 page report from the governor himself.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take a few more phone calls. We took many in our first segment earlier this morning but we can take a few more with your questions about the attorney general's report. Your comment about what the governor should do now in your opinion or anything related for reporter Laura Nahmias 646-435 (7280) 646-435 (7280) or tweet at Brian Lehrer. We talked a lot earlier in the show about all the corroborating evidence in this report. It's not just, he said, she said I want to play one example of how the special assistant New York state attorney general for this investigation, Anne Clark one example of what she pointed to in terms of evidence in their news conference yesterday.

Anne Clark: We found all 11 women to be credible. There was corroboration to varying degrees probably at the end of being most corroborated, Charlotte Bennett talked to people and texted people contemporaneously. Some of her texts were practically in real-time regarding conversations with the governor.

Brian Lehrer: So this real-time texting Laura, I don't know if you want to add more details about that or anything else that really jumped out at you from the report in terms of corroborating evidence, not just he said, she said charges.

Laura Nahmias: Well, Brian, there's so many things that were so remarkable about this report, but the corroborating evidence, the fact that it exists at all is remarkable because I think as you and I both know, and some other listeners may know from observing the governor over a long period of time, he is a very secretive person. He and his staff are secretive and they are not inclined to release documents when required to do so by law under Freedom of Information requests.

They still communicate clearly from the evidence included in this report using secretive Blackberry pin messages that are hard to trace. That's how they keep visitor's logs at the governor's mansion instead of in any form that would be more easily sought out or collected or archived and accessible to people who want to know who's going in and out of the governor's mansion. That that should be a public record and they're communicating in this secretive way.

Then also the report is shot through with the governor and his staff telling people and telling the women who complained not to tell other people about their conversations. Trooper in a state vehicle with the governor tells the female state trooper who is one of the new complainants in the report that comments the governor made that were allegedly made that were inappropriate about her appearance should, I believe the quote was, stay in the vehicle?

Don't talk about them to anyone else and she was upbraided for mentioning it outside the confines of the car. The fact that Charlotte Bennett and some other people in the report had the presence of mind to record or otherwise document contemporaneously their allegations is in spite of the culture that the governor has fostered for all of his time in office.

Brian Lehrer: We mentioned earlier in the show the overnight Marist Poll, which finds about 60% of all New Yorkers think the governor should resign now, about 32% still think the governor should not resign. Earlier in the show we were getting callers who thought the governor should resign on all our lines. Now we have one who thinks the governor should be able to stay and we'll take that call, Alan in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi Alan.

Alan: Good morning, Brian. I'm not going here to defend Cuomo's conduct, but I am calling for proportionality and realism. I think that even if all the allegations of conduct were true, if they had amounted to felony, sex assault, they would have been prosecuted long ago. Prosecutors in the area may look at it and find that some of them might amount to misdemeanor sex assault. These are seldom prosecuted. If we're going to go to an impeachment in New York where the very act of voting to impeach before trial removes him from power, that's a very drastic move to take.

We have to ask ourselves what kind of standard we're setting here or are we really acting on the basis of independent judgment of most Democrats or most of them watching their backs to make sure they don't offend the interests of the feminist movement in the party or look like they're out of step with an apparent majority. [unintelligible 00:07:25] have to wonder about the possibility that these things are being exploited by Republicans who want at every step to remove Democrats from power so they stopped the investigations that were underway mostly in New York against Trump. [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Let me jump in and ask you a follow-up question. I understand that politics is political, but as far as setting a standard, assuming all these instances that are documented in the attorney General's report are true, why wouldn't you want to set a standard for workplace behavior if other bosses with a lot of power would presumably get fired, or if you think other bosses with a lot of power should get fired for these kinds of behaviors in multiple instances?

Alan: Well, the metaphor is often used of trying to repair an airplane mid flight. You only do that when you have to, generally, you can't do it. You have a government that is functioning. If you try to impose standards that would cause the government to disappear because it's not perfect, you're going to have chaos and a vacuum. We can't change long term cultural standards that way, the fact that most of your listeners and I feel that this is basically a fair investigation. It doesn't mean that we're not self-selecting for people who agree with that and we're losing a lot of the people who voted for Trump in 2016, 2012.

Brian Lehrer: Whoops, your line is fading out, but Alan, I get your points. Lauren Nahmias do you think there are a lot of people who agree with Alan enough that it's affecting the process?

Laura Nahmias: I think it's possible. We are relatively close to another election year for the governor. I think that there are some people who might be inclined to say that on balance, maybe these behaviors don't outweigh the effective running of government or some of the governor's other achievements. To those people, I would raise the question. It's a question that I have myself which is that this is a pattern of behavior, not just the alleged taking advantage of junior staffers and harassment and demeaning and bullying that extends to this sphere of sexual harassment, but is a pattern of behavior that we've heard for years the governor practices in all of his dealings that his preferred mode in politics is get along or killed that he is vindictive and destructive of his enemies and it's worth asking whether or not that is the right way to do government.

I think this is a particularly important point whether or not his government is, in fact, effective since he's can be so clannish and trusts this small circle of advisers to conduct so much of the business of government and outsources it and so many people are seemingly afraid to criticize him or push back whether or not that has affected his ability to govern well. For that, I would call people's attention back to some arguable missteps, like with the rollout of vaccines and the usurpation of the traditional role of county health departments by the governor's office and some other COVID related-

Brian Lehrer: They're so far-

Laura Nahmias: -problems.

Brian Lehrer: -failed Rent Relief Program that we were talking about in the previous segment. Laura, you were an Albany reporter some people know for Politico as a young woman journalist, and you've spoken previously this year when some of these stories started to emerge about the old boy culture. Can you give us an overview of the context in which governor Cuomo's behavior took place?

Laura Nahmias: I was listening earlier and caught a little bit of your interview earlier in the show with Karen DeWitt, who is a wonderful reporter, Albany reporter, and I shared her belief. When the allegations first broke, I was shocked by the sexual harassment component of it because I hadn't know him to be-- He's touchy, he's a cheek toucher, a cheek kisser, a hugger but was so much less bad by comparison than so many of the other Albany lawmakers and lobbyists and staffers and even people in journalism up there that he was, by comparison-- I wouldn't have expected this from him.

The culture up there I think has changed somewhat in the year since I was there but it was awful. It was truly demeaning and constant harassment for young women and it was a stifling way to operate and the fact that women do and did and have done such a good job reporting on this, in spite of all that is remarkable.

Brian Lehrer: In our last minute, you say the culture did change in recent years. I presume it changed somewhat after the Me Too movement really broke out in 2017. In that context, are you surprised that some of these Cuomo incidents documented in the report are from after 2017?

Laura Nahmias: It really is galling. I know that the governor signed a change in sexual harassment policy in 2019. That was among the first editorials that I helped research when I joined the Daily News Editorial Board in summer of 2019. It was lowering the standards for what constitutes workplace sexual harassment to make it easier for people to bring cases. The hypocrisy, if these allegations are true, the fact that the governor and his staff talked the talk about changes and embracing women's rights and providing a harassment-free workplace in the aftermath of the Me Too movement, and that these incidents alleged to have occurred happened after that is just stunning in its hypocrisy.

Brian Lehrer: That has to be the last word for it today. Journalist Laura Nahmias, her substack newsletter about New York politics is called Fun City and she has an article on the Cuomo situation on New York Magazine site today. Laura Thanks.

Laura Nahmias: Thank you.

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