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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We were just talking about Guantanamo Bay, now turn a little further north on the island of Cuba, where on Sunday last weekend, July 11th, tens of thousands of people demonstrated across 45 cities in the largest anti-government protests on the island in decades, chanting freedom and chanting enough. The protests erupted amid Cuba's worst economic crisis since the fall of the Soviet Union way back when. The crisis was compounded by the ongoing pandemic, which has brought the island to the brink of its worst food shortages in decades.

The protests aren't limited to just on the island of Cuba, since then, all across the United States, Cuban Americans and their allies have also gathered in solidarity. Joining us now to break down the ongoing situation in Cuba and to help take your phone calls are Dr. Andy Gomez, Retired Director of the Institute for Cuban and Cuban-American Studies, and former assistant Provost and Dean of International Studies at the University of Miami. Professor, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Dr. Andy S. Gomez: My pleasure to be with you.

Brian Lehrer: Also joining us is Frances Robles, National and Foreign Correspondent for The New York Times. She was last on the show back in 2017, to discuss how Hurricane Irma affected the region. Frances, welcome back. Thank you for joining us.

Frances Robles: Thanks for inviting me, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Just by a little way of background, I gather the two of you actually go way back in Florida. Dr. Gomez, how do you two know each other?

Dr. Andy S. Gomez: Oh, Frances, and I go back years. I think she's one of the best journalists I've encountered in my years, dealing with reporters across, not only the United States but around the world. She's a top journalist.

Brian Lehrer: With that, as a very good entrance credit, Frances, what exactly are people in Cuba protesting, and why now?

Frances Robles: Well, thank you so much for those kind words Andy, if I may call you, Andy on the radio.

Dr. Andy S. Gomez: Of course.

Frances Robles: Why now? It's interesting, it's been such a confluence of factors. You have the food factor, you have the medicine factor, you have the COVID factor, but for us to say, "Oh, people are--" I think one of the mistakes that some of the media the national media has been making is saying, "Oh, people are protesting lack of food and lack of medicine." I don't think that's the case. I think it's all these compliments of factors, making people say, "Enough, what I want is democracy."

Brian Lehrer: Professor, you were actually born in Cuba, can you tell us about your family leaving, and do you see this as simply for democracy because you know how this gets polarized in this country. People who support the economic embargo on Cuba that was in place for so long, and I guess the Trump administration renewed and reinforced after the Obama administration had eased it to varying degrees. People say, if you're not for the economic embargo, then you're not for Cuba, you're soft on dictatorship, communist-style. On the other hand, people say, we want to help the people of Cuba, so we want to lift the economic embargo or ease it. How does that United States debate play into what's going on there now or how do you think people here should view it?

Dr. Andy S. Gomez: Let me begin by yes, I was born in Cuba, and I left at the age of six in 1961, three days before the [unintelligible 00:03:57]. My dad worked for Coca-Cola, so we were fortunate, and he was transferred actually to Venezuela and later on to Miami, Florida. Brian, the issue of Cuba is somewhat complicated. No question. The protests that we saw on Sunday were unprecedented. We have not seen that level of protest, I would say back in 1959, 1958 across the island.

One thing we have to take into consideration here and I think by now we should have learned that we the United States cannot export democratic principles, democratic governments to countries that don't have a history for having them and sustaining them. What by I mean this, we have to look very carefully at Cuba's history. I dare to say that, Cuba did not have a democracy before 1959.

Brian Lehrer: Meaning even before Castro, they didn't have a democracy?

Dr. Andy S. Gomez: Even before Castro, we had a somewhat of a turbulent history in terms of governments, like most countries in Latin America. How does the United States get involved in all of this? Well, we've had some of our local politicians what I call and have been a little bit irresponsible by calling for a military intervention of Cuba. This is a very complicated world, as we all know. Let's just say in Latin America, you have what happened in Haiti with a president being assassinated, Venezuela.

Invading Cuba at this time doesn't really resolve the problems in the long run. You look at what happened in Iraq, we brought down the security apparatus, and then we ended up staying in the country for a long time. Look at Afghanistan, 20 years later, we're leaving and now they're continuing to fight. The issue with Cuba is here in South Florida, of course, and I understand that being Cuban, feeling it every single day, being sad to see the hard repression that the people of Cuba are suffering under the totalitarian regime but in the long run, unless the Cuban military turns on the leadership, I don't see the government falling.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, Cuban Americans, if we have any Cuban Americans listening right now, invite you to call in and say anything you want about how you see the situation in Cuba right now, or what you would like the US role to be, if any, as these pro-democracy protests rise on the island, 646-435-7280, help us report this story, Cuban Americans, or anybody with a connection to Cuba, no matter what your background, what are you hearing from loved ones, or business associates or whoever you have down there. What are they calling for? What have they been experiencing? Help us report this story, 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280.

Maybe you went to one of the solidarity protests here in the United States, you can tell us about that experience. Again, anybody who's Cuban American, or has a relationship with people in Cuba, 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280, or tweet your comment or question @BrianLehrer, as we continue with our guests, Professor Andy Gomez, Retired Director of the Institute for Cuban and Cuban-American Studies at the University of Miami, and New York Times correspondent, Frances Robles. Frances, What's the situation today? It's starting to fall out of the news in the United States more or less, but you heard Professor Gomez just say that he doesn't think the government is going to fall and the system is going to change unless the Cuban military turns on the government.

Frances Robles: That's right. For the first few days, what you saw was the Cuban government cutting the internet down. Cutting the internet really was a successful way of quashing some of this because it's the oxygen that these protests need to breathe. People were hitting the streets because they saw other people hitting the streets. If you cut people's abilities to film Facebook Live, then that really hampers the movement, and then the fact that hundreds of people are in jail. That's obviously also going to hamper the movement. People have a second thoughts like, "Wait a second, am I going to be committing a "crime" that's going to land me in jail for years?"

I had a question for Dr. Gomez. I'm curious to know what you think of this. Under the Obama administration, it was all about money, people, and ideas to Cuba, flood the zone, and that will get the government to fall. Now you see after a period of like, really, really tight restrictions, and then pandemic bringing even worse restrictions, finally brings thousands of people to the street. I'm curious to know if you think that this vindicates the embargo in some way?

Dr. Andy S. Gomez: Frances, the embargo is a negotiation tool. We try when President Obama opened relations with Cuba, to sit down with Cubans which by the way, I should say, we caught the Cuban government off guard to some extent, what Obama did. The embargo needs to be negotiated. There are many other issues that need to be put on the table but the Cuban government keep supporting the issue of lifting the embargo and giving back Guantanamo Bay, the base. We got to start somewhere else. We got to start somewhere else.

The Cuban government really at this point has shown very little, very little indication that they're willing to come to the table in good faith and negotiate. There's no question and I give you there's no question that the embargo has had a negative impact on the Cuban people, number one. Number two, I don't know of any economic embargo that has brought down a regime in the past. Nevertheless, I think the issues are bigger and I do hope that in the near future, both the United States and Cuba will come to the table and begin to renegotiate many of the issues that need to be addressed.

Brian Lehrer: Frances, did you get the answer you were looking for? Did that advance the story?

Frances Robles: I guess but if this was an interview between you and me, I would pin you down and say yes or no. I'm pinning you down

Dr. Andy S. Gomez: Pin me down I know you will so go ahead.

Frances Robles: The people who are for the embargo, does this protest movement prove that they were right, that you had to squeeze them financially in order to bring on a social uprising?

Dr. Andy S. Gomez: No, I really don't, Frenchie. I think what we saw in Cuba last Sunday and the Cuban people are very clear. The problems in Cuba are not the economic embargo. The US economic embargo. The problem in Cuba is almost 63 years of totalitarian regime. Denying them their freedoms, denying them the right to choose, denying them the right to travel. This is more complicated than just the embargo. I approach the embargo from an academic point of view, which is what I've been trained. In diplomatic negotiations, you don't give up something for nothing and that's my point.

Brian Lehrer: Jose in Union City you're on WNYC. Hello, Jose.

Jose: Thank you. Thank you for letting me speak, Brian. I'm a Cuban-American. I've been in this country for 40 years, but I've never lost contact with my country and my roots. I know everything about the situation. I would just like to commend the station for letting us express our views, which is the main problem in Cuba. This is not about the embargo. We shouldn't even be talking about the embargo or even the hunger that my people are going through right now. This is all about one thing.

They are yelling, "Libertad." Liberty. It's very clear what they want. It's 62 years of communist oppression, where you can't do what we do here freely. As we speak, people are being beaten out of their homes, jailed, and killed simply for doing what we can do in this country. That is all this demonstration is about. We've had enough. Me having lived here 50 for 40 years I consider myself a Cuban-American but all of the people of Cuba have had enough of communist dictatorship. I know that most of the listeners will not be in agreement because they idolized Fidel and all this other garbage.

Brian Lehrer: I wouldn't say that's true but go ahead.

Jose: A little history [unintelligible 00:13:34] there was a [unintelligible 00:13:35] in Cuba, Fulgencio Batista idiotically took over with a coup d'état. That was a dictatorship as well but before that, we had a democracy not perfect just like our democracy here is not perfect, but we did have a democracy before Batista--

Brian Lehrer: Jose, how do we get there in your opinion? How does the current movement succeed? What role, if any for the United States?

Jose: Yes, unfortunately, the only solution is for bloodshed in Cuba itself, make it clear. One point, Cubans have no arms whatsoever. They were only weapons in his speech. Their only weapon is for the rest of the world to support them. As far as the military intervention, it's not going to happen. It's a pipe dream of the Cuban community.

I don't even know if it's the correct thing to do with military intervention by the US, but we can help in many other ways, beginning with information and the truth being said out. Every time I turn on a station, they're talking about the embargo or COVID, or this or that and they don't say what it is. Dictatorship where people can't do anything freely, freedom and we have to acknowledge that, everyone has to acknowledge that, or [inaudible 00:15:02] like the reality.

Brian Lehrer: Jose, thank you so much. I think we do say dictatorship on the station, but nevertheless, thank you very much for all of that. I'm going to go on to another caller. Here is Charles from Miami who says he's a first-generation Cuban-American. Charles your own WNYC. Hi there.

Charles: Hey Brian, this is such a pleasure, man. What's up, dude? How's it going? [crosstalk] I'm originally from Miami, Florida. I'm sorry.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Charles: Okay, I'm originally from Miami. I live in Jersey. I have a cousin out in Cuba who I messaged over Facebook Messenger every here and there and this, that and the other. I saw that everything was heating up over there. Things are getting their protests and stuff like that. I sent her a message in Spanish basically, [Spanish language]. She messaged me back an article from the Miami Herald. She was like, "No, no, no, no, that's not us. That's your guys over there." I don't know what to think. I know what to think. I know Cuba needs to be free. Those people need to be free, but there's mixed emotions over there too.

Brian Lehrer: What do you mean it's you guys over there, it's not the Cubans? Explain that.

Charles: Right. Meaning like the Americans, us Americans. I'm American. I was born and raised in Miami, Florida. I'm bilingual. I'd love this country. I live in Jersey now. I'm an American, but my opinion of Cuba is they need to get out of that dictatorship. You know what I'm saying? They need to get out [unintelligible 00:16:30] starting the 2021, you know what I mean? Her over there, she was like, "No, that's your American sentiment. We don't think that over here."

Brian Lehrer: Charles I'm going to leave it there. I really appreciate your call. Do call us again. Frances Robles from the New York Times, what do you think about, well, either of those two callers but the point that Charles was just making there, that people on the island are divided about whether they would want this government to fall in this system of government to change?

Frances Robles: I don't think there's any question that there is whatever percent core group of people who support the government for whatever reason, because their personal situation, their family situation improved tremendously. They believe in socialism, they have some personal benefits of the government staying in power.

Sure. There's X percent that feels that way but to Charles's cousin, I would say that she open the window and look outside last weekend, because no matter what city she was in, there's a pretty good chance that there were hundreds, if not thousands of people out there. Now is a core group of people in the United States, Cuban exiles, who are helping notch this thing along? Sure. I think that we would be deluding ourselves to think otherwise. I don't know, Andy, if you agree.

Dr. Andy S. Gomez: I agree.

Brian Lehrer: That was easy. Maria in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi Maria.

Maria: Hi Brian. Thank you for taking my call. I'm a Cuban-American, who was born and raised in Miami, Florida, but now in Brooklyn, the younger generation. My dad is from Cuba and left Cuba when the Castro regime took over. We were always told growing up that obviously, communism is bad the dictatorship is a big issue, but the younger generation also sees the issue with the embargo.

Obviously, yes, the dictatorship is more than half to blame, but I think a small percentage is, I think the embargo needs to go. It's not working. It's not doing anything to help the situation whatsoever and I also think that possibly the military needs to get involved. The Cuban people don't have much power, so them rising up alone, and now they're getting bashed down by the local police and military, I'm not very hopeful that them rising up right now is going to do a whole lot unless outside sources getting involved.

Brian Lehrer: You're calling for US military intervention in Cuba?

Maria: US or any other country that wants to help out.

Brian Lehrer: Maria. Thank you very much but professor Gomez, that certainly didn't work when they tried it in 1961, right?

Dr. Andy S. Gomez: Yes, can I jump in real quickly?

Brian Lehrer: Of course. Let me give a concrete example about the embargo. When President Obama opened up relationships with Cuba and encourage American and Cuban-American foreign investment, I spoke to many of the lawyers and companies that looked at Cuba as a possibility of investing and The United States was going to allow it. Here's the problem. The Cuban Government and their economy, which most of it is controlled by the military, wants to control 51% plus of the investments. There's no one in their right frame of mind that will want to invest in Cuba when you do not also have legal assurances that your money is going to be protected and safe, and it's going to mean something.

We have seen beginning with the early days of the revolution companies that were confiscated, but since then, a number of individuals that invested in Cuba lost everything. It's very easy to lift the embargo is my point, but the Cuban government needs to also change many of their restrictions in order for the uses of lifting the embargo to work for the Cuban people.

Brian Lehrer: We are going to have to leave it there with Andy Gomez, Retired Director of the Institute for Cuban and Cuban-American Studies and former assistant Provost and Dean of International Studies at the University of Miami, and Frances Robles, from the New York Times who we now know her nickname is Frenchie because Dr. Gomez is so familiar with her that he calls her by that nickname. Frances, thank you very much for being co-journalists with me on this segment and interviewing Professor Gomez along the way.

Frances Robles: Thank you for letting me hijack your show, Brian. I've always wanted my Radio Show.

Brian Lehrer: That was fabulous. Callers, if we had more time it could keep taking some more of you who are Cuban-Americans, we will do that another day as we continue to follow this situation. Professor and Frances thank you both so much.

Dr. Andy S. Gomez: My pleasure, Brian.

Frances Robles: Thanks.

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Coming up next, a proposal for a four-day workweek. Stay tuned.

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