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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. We're going to start today on a crisis situation that's a real crisis situation that we haven't dealt with yet on the show because of so much else that's been going on locally and globally, but we know this is relevant to many of you. It's the crisis in Haiti where a gang uprising has successfully ousted the appointed prime minister, Ariel Henry. With so many Haitian Americans in our listening area, we want your take on why and what to do about it. 212-433-WNYC. We'll talk to Garry Pierre-Pierre from The Haitian Times in just a second.

By way of background for those of you who don't have ties to Haiti and haven't been following it, but hear this in the news and think, "Yes, this is basically right off our shores. We should know what's going on, and the United States is often said to be somewhat responsible for this," as of now, Haitian civilians face widespread acts of random violence and displacement. According to UNICEF, over 362,000 desperate people are internally displaced and hunger and life-threatening malnutrition are at a record high across the country.

Here in the United States, Florida officials announced the interdiction of a boat carrying 25 Haitian migrants, interdiction by the law enforcement last week. Florida's governor and former Republican presidential candidate Ron DeSantis threatened to fly Haitian asylum seekers, where else? Not New York this time, the other place, Martha's Vineyard. Although CBS News reports turmoil in that country has not resulted in a spike in maritime migration, DeSantis's reaction was to just 25 people.

President Biden has requested aid be sent to Haiti but congressional Republicans blocked the flow of $40 million citing fears that the funds could worsen the situation. A lot of Haitians also think US intervention has worsened the situation there over time. Let's take a closer look at this crisis unfolding in Haiti and with ramifications for the United States, also the role of the United States in creating this pressure cooker. We'll talk about how this could possibly end and get better. Joining us now is Garry Pierre-Pierre, founder and publisher of The Haitian Times. Garry, always good to have you on the show. Unfortunately, always seems to be around this kind of thing, but welcome back to WNYC.

Garry Pierre-Pierre: Thank you, Brian. Pleasure to be here.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we are going to open up the phones right away. To those of you with ties to Haiti, what are you hearing from family members if you have family members there right now? Do you think the United States should be doing something in particular to help combat what's being described as a gang takeover? Would US interference, if that's the right word, cause more harm than good? What do you see as the solution to Haiti's ongoing political and humanitarian crises? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

Garry, first, it might seem to Haitians and certainly to non-Haitians who casually consume media coverage that it's just one crisis after another. Today it's this. In 2021, you were on after the assassination of Prime Minister Moïse. We could go way back to the coup against President Aristide, who actually came on the show when he was in exile. Why is there so much political instability for decades in a row?

Garry Pierre-Pierre: Brian, one slight correction, Moïse was the president, not the Prime Minister. I just wanted to make that point.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, fair enough. Sorry.

Garry Pierre-Pierre: No. No worries. Really, Brian, I've been talking to you and other colleagues for over 20 years about Haiti. Whenever we talk about the latest crisis, I think one has to go back to when Haiti got its independence in 1804. This was a country that was calling itself a republic, Black people calling themselves freedmen. The United States, where slavery was a major part of its economy, really was threatened by this whole idea of Haiti. France, which was a superpower at the time, lost all of its property and it forced Haiti to pay a ransom for having gained its independence.

Haiti was isolated right there and had no trading partners, and there was infighting and instability started from then. This is why some Haitians and some other scholars have said the US and France was responsible. That cycle, unfortunately, has been continuing and unable to break. This is where we are right now. I could talk to you, if you go back to Aristide and today, the underlying reason is that. We got our independence as a nation and we were isolated from the world. Totally we missed the industrial revolution and everything else that came with it. We've been trying to play catch-up ever since.

Brian Lehrer: Yet I think it's fair to say that Haiti is a very fertile Island, historically growing crops consumed by the world, but UNICEF reports one in four children in Haiti suffer from chronic malnutrition. Can you talk about the fertility of the island? Should agriculture be more of a domestic resource there and maybe even an export business more than it is?

Garry Pierre-Pierre: Yes, it should. In fact, President Préval in 2004 or so invested heavily in agriculture for Haiti. It was a couple of years before that, I'm sorry. What happened, there was a hurricane and it destroyed everything. Also, Haiti, it's cheaper to import rice and foodstuff than it is to grow it because of the lack of infrastructure, roads to get things around. That's why we're food insecure. The other problem also is that the border with the Dominican Republic where we get many of our goods has been closed and the ports are closed. Therefore, not much can come in. Right now people are living with whatever reserve that they have.

I spoke to a friend of mine yesterday and he was not sure how long his supplies would last in terms of food, and the supermarkets are closed. You have all of these factors playing a role and making the country at large food insecure. One of the things I must say, in fact, when we talk about Haiti, what's happening, and we want to be clear, Brian, that most of what we're describing is Port-au-Prince. The problem is that Port-au-Prince is a capital and it's also the cultural capital and the most important city. It's been isolated strategically, tactically by the gangs from the rest of the country. There's nothing coming, there's nothing leaving Port-au-Prince, so Port-au-Prince is isolated completely and overrun by gangs.

Brian Lehrer: When you say gangs, and so much of the media reporting uses that word, what do we mean by gangs? We think of gangs in one context in the New York area, maybe in other contexts nationally. It's different over time in the US context. What do you mean when you say gangs?

Garry Pierre-Pierre: These are criminal elements, thugs that have been growing, I would say, since the late 1990s. They've been collecting and stockpiling military-grade weapons. Before, they used to be shock troopers, if you will, excuse the language, of the political class and the business elite. The last couple of years, they began to go out on their own, basically bypassing the political class and the business class, and started looting and killing and kidnapping for ransom, which has become very lucrative for them.

These are not, like you said, the gangs that we think of. Think of them more as the warlords and the technicals of yesteryears in Somalia. That's the situation we have. Then these criminal gangs, the police are unable to push them back. The police have always been playing defense and not being able to attack them and pacify them and to make sure that the capital city can restore some sense of normalcy.

Brian Lehrer: Why does the gang activity lead to a breakdown of the economy? Generally, though, if one thinks about mafia-type gangs, to use the phrase in the history of the United States, yes, they took their cuts, but it didn't stop the economy from working overall.

Garry Pierre-Pierre: This is a different system and Haiti's politics is a zero-sum game, and whatever we do, it's just all for me, nothing for you. Therefore, the gangs now, they have a lot of power. They used to be the army of the rich in the political class, if you will, but now they're their own army. There are no rules. They make the rules. They decide what happens. They've imposed taxes and other fines to people living in the neighborhoods throughout the city and they're acting as a government, although obviously very illegal government. Essentially they decide what happens.

You have to understand too, Brian, very important that these gang members, they are marginalized. They've been marginalized all their lives. These are people who are deeply, deeply angry at Haitian society, at the elite that ruled the country. Right now the notion of country and being a community, these things elude them. Really that's why some people in the US, Haitians, I must say, have a little bit of sympathy for the situation, although they're not supportive but they can understand why the situation has gotten to where it is because we've never seen--

We've been talking about 25 years about Haiti on and off, Brian, but this is the worst it's ever been. This is real. The other things were manufactured by the political class, but this is a total breakdown of society where people are fleeing. There's been images on the internet about helicopters coming in to whisk people out of the country. That's not normal. This is not like the political crisis that we've talked about or the issues with the Dominican Republic, and then so on and forth. This is next-level chaos.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, who has a question or who has a story for Garry Pierre-Pierre, editor and publisher of The Haitian Times? 212-433-WNYC, call or text 212-433-9692. Here's a question a listener texted Garry. "I've been reading that Haiti's gangs got their marching order from politicians. Could the guest please explain that?" Is that true? Would you describe it that way, Garry?

Garry Pierre-Pierre: It used to be, yes, absolutely. This is what I explained that before they used to work for politicians around election time to sow some violence, some trouble and so they can intimidate and force each other. They also work for the private sector. Whenever you have different factor in the private sector fighting among themselves, they'll use the gang to intimidate, kill, if need be, their opponent or their rival. That's what the gangs have been using.

What is happening now, the gangs have taken over. They're able to collect the money themselves, so they don't need to be a broker for these politicians and these businessmen. The key here is that the police have been politicized, the morale is nonexistent. A lot of them have left Haiti, so the force is being reduced. In that scenario, nothing good happens.

Brian Lehrer: Another listener asks, "Curious about where the weapons available to the gangs are coming from."

Garry Pierre-Pierre: [chuckles] Haiti doesn't produce any. They're coming from Miami, the United States. There are several people who've been found guilty or charged with gun smuggling to Haiti. This is one thing that I've been asking and that we've been saying at The Haitian Times that the US can play a role in helping that. Absolutely. If the US doesn't want to do anything or can't do for political reasons, the Republicans blocking this and that, they can really get the ATF and the DEA to really intervene, make sure that cargoes that are heading to Haiti are thoroughly checked so that you stop the proliferation of guns into Haiti.

These are very expensive weapons. The average Haitian can't even afford to eat as we were talking about earlier, and so they definitely don't have the resources to buy guns. This is something that has been going on for a while. All of this didn't happen overnight, Brian. This has been percolating and we've been talking about this and raising the alarms that, hey, this cannot go on like that, but then the world has own problem and Haitians have been out to lunch, if you will, the leadership, and not really caring and leading the country where it needs to be.

We often tend to point to the prime minister, the president, whoever is the leader as the problem when the fact of the matter is this problem, all of us Haitians, including the diaspora, we play a role in being where we are today because there's been a lot of missed opportunities, a lot of long terms taking the wrong decisions almost every time. Here we are today where the country I am deeply worried about its future, immediate and long term, because we have run out of ideas inside of the country and they need help. The way they're going about it, it's not going to bring the kind of help that is necessary to really, first of all, pacify the gangs and restore order and commerce so that life can return.

Brian Lehrer: If the guns are coming from Miami and if Governor DeSantis of Florida, as we mentioned in the intro, is rejecting the arrival of desperate asylum seekers from this desperate situation in Haiti, is there more that he could do to stop the export of guns from his state, illegal export at that?

Garry Pierre-Pierre: Absolutely. He has a right to inspect these ships who are heading to Haiti. As you see now, the Supreme Court is weighing in whether Texas or any other state can involve themselves in immigration affairs, deporting people back to a police state, not even from Mexico.

If you were some of these Republican governors thinking about this Draconian measures, so this is something that he will endear himself to his constituents in South Florida who are really within watching this flow of weapons into Haiti unchecked. Perhaps you should think about that. That's a good idea for him. I hope maybe he's listening or one of his aides listening that probably the best way to use his resources is try to inspect this cargo that's heading down to Haiti.

Brian Lehrer: He doesn't want people crossing borders into this country, what he calls illegally. How about guns leaving these borders from his state illegally? Maybe somebody will pick that up down there. Here are two opposing texts from listeners on the deep history that you were giving earlier in the segment. One listener writes, "Thank you. The only way the Haitian issue can be resolved is to go back to 1804 and for France to repay the $500 million that Haiti paid in reparations."

Another one writes, "I'm sorry. Blaming current problems on actions in 1804 is very lame. Other countries emerging much later from colonialism have managed much better." What would you say to either of those or the fact that they came in right after another?

Garry Pierre-Pierre: I think both are valid. To be quite honest, The Haitian Times, once again, we've been talking about that as well like, "Hey, listen, we do understand what happened in 1804. It's real, it's true, but now how can we stop this cycle? How can we reverse the wrong that was done to Haiti?" The two are right. There's no contradiction here. It's just that this is a challenge, I think, of the Haitian Americans just like the Irish Americans, the Italians Americans were able to influence and then help turn these countries around.

As you know very well, New York City, New York State was Italian and Irish because these countries were troubled. Not to the extent of Haiti, but deeply troubled enough that they were sending immigrants over here in large numbers. These diaspora were able to turn around their homeland. Hopefully, we Haitian Americans can follow this playbook and learn from what happened, how it was done, and help change the narrative of Haiti because we have the wherewithal, the education, the means.

Now all we need is start organizing ourselves and then realize that the remittances that we send home just simply is another form of welfare and foreign aid to Haiti is not doing anything to develop the country. I think the second comments are as valid as the first one. There's no contradiction here as far as I'm concerned because both are true.

Brian Lehrer: Gail in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with Garry Pierre-Pierre, editor and publisher of The Haitian Times. Hi, Gail.

Gail: Good morning. Thank you for taking my call. I have a friend who's Haitian American, [clears throat] excuse me, living in Haiti. Since the gang issue broke out, we've been texting. I texted him that NPR story and encouraged him to call in. He said there's been a lot of press reaching out to him, but he's not able to respond because it's dangerous being there and they don't want to be targeted, and that there's a great number of American Haitians waiting to be evacuated. He's been waiting since this began. He said he's on standby today. I thought that was very moving and wanted to share that.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. Garry, talk to Gail.

Garry Pierre-Pierre: Gail, I'm sorry about your friend. I have personally friends as well who are stranded in Haiti. It's very difficult right now because the airport is closed. The roads are dangerous. People have been taken out by helicopter, and that's very expensive. I've heard up to $8,000 for a helicopter should take you next door to the Dominican Republic and then out to the United States. It's a very difficult situation. It's scary. It's dangerous.

We've been trying to get friends and families out the last month or so, encouraging them to leave, but a lot of them, they cannot leave because they have property. If they were to leave would be looted and pillaged and so they just stay there. Now they're stuck and unable to find a way out. This is a really disturbing situation we're describing. This is a war zone. Not even a war, frankly, this is a massacre zone because there's nobody else shooting back. There are a few people who are now trying to stand up and shoot back, but that's very, again, in itself very dangerous because these people are heavily armed, these so-called gangs.

We've been reporting on the situation trying to find ways to guide people out, but right now, there's no way out unless you have a lot of money or unless the US sends in helicopters and Marines to rescue embassy officials and other officials working for the American government in Haiti right now. That's just about it. The Haitians in Haiti are left to fend for themselves with nothing.

Brian Lehrer: Gail, thank you for your call. Garry and everybody, we're getting a call, it looks like from inside Haiti. Here is Maiselis calling from Haiti. Hello, Maiselis. Thank you for listening. You're on WNYC.

Speaker 4: Thank you so much. My name is [unintelligible 00:22:41] Maiselis. I'm a professor of political sciences and I'm calling you from Haiti right now because I always like to listen to your show. I know you. I live in New York for a while. Right now, I'm in Haiti. Since you are talking about Haiti, it's a real pleasure for me to share my comment about the current situation in Haiti. That's why I'm calling you.

Brian Lehrer: I'm honored that you continue to listen to us, that you make that choice.

Maiselis: [chuckles]

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Speaker 4: Yes. I think that there is something that is very important that is happening right now in Haiti. You see the strength of the Haitian people. As you know, there is no international communication, there are no planes, no boats, there is no port in the country. The people are selling foods for Haitian elite who destroy the country. We have no supermarket. All market are closed. Only we have informal trade in the country. I want your listeners to know that the Haitian people is a strong people. They sustain the life of the country right now because in the capital, as I told you, there is no market, there is no international plane, and they sell their food.

There is no communication with Dominican Republic. Generally, we import our food from Dominican Republic. This is the Haitian people that try to sustain the political elite, the economic elite that destroy the country. This current crisis is explained by the fact that the political elite, the economic elite destroyed the country. They take away all the money. They leave the people alone. That's the reason why you can see in the popular areas we have gang violence. They control the popular areas so that the political elite can win the election. There is an important connection between the gang violence and election in Haiti.

The politician want to control the popular areas. That's why they distribute arms to gangs in the popular areas. This is a reality. Right now, it seems to me they don't control these people who have gangs, who have arms in the popular areas. There is a disconnection between the gangs and some politicians that have armed them to do violence. What I would like to tell you is the fact that right now, the country is isolated and only the Haitian people, the peasant, the common people sustain their life in progress with their food, with the informal trade. This is very important.

This is the people of resistance. This is very important for you because generally, historically, the Haitian elite, the political and economic elite, rob all the money. They take all the richness of the country. We have this violence because there is a great gap of inequality in the country. Right now, the popular people react against the elite and they also try to destroy the common people. The real reason of this violence is the fact that there is a lack of distribution of social justice in the country.

Brian Lehrer: Let me ask you a follow-up question. I certainly hear what you're saying about massive inequality and hoarding of resources by the elite being a root cause here. What, in your opinion, should the United States do, if anything? I know some people say US intervention over time, even when well-intentioned, has often done more harm than good, but not everybody feels that way. What would you like to see the United States do?

Speaker 4: A very good question. It is very difficult to answer this question because, over the past, the US intervention has been negative for the country, as you know, since 1915, the first US intervention in the country, and after that there have been many US interventions. Right now, the people cannot sustain. It seems to me there's a large amount of the population that think that we need international intervention because the people cannot sustain.

The society is divided into two blocks, a minority that rejects the idea of international intervention, a majority requires this intervention because they think that we cannot sustain. The national police can do nothing and the army can do nothing. What we should do in the next time is to have a national army. As you know, in 1994, the Haitian army had been destroyed. It was not reconstructed.

If you would like to help Haiti, first of all, I think that a large majority requires international intervention because we cannot do nothing, police can do nothing. As you can see in TV, some gangs rob banks, destroy and burn houses, burns banks, and anything in the country. There is a large majority that say that if you don't have this intervention, you can do nothing. On the other side, I think that it would be a power [unintelligible 00:28:06] ensue, but we need the creation of the Haitian army in the future in order to defend the country.

Brian Lehrer: Right. Very interesting. I'm going to leave it there and talk to Garry Pierre-Pierre about your call. Maiselis, I really, really appreciate you calling us from Haiti today with your perspective as a political science professor and as a human being. Thank you. Good luck to you and everyone you know there. Garry, such an interesting call. You can jump in anywhere you want, but I was interested as one point from his call at the end there when he talks about the need to recreate a Haitian army.

Garry Pierre-Pierre: Yes, that's a popular-- Let me just give the listeners some context as to what the caller was talking about. When Aristide returned to power in Haiti with the 20,000 American soldiers accompanying him, he disbanded the army because the army had just led the coup d'etat that ousted him, and so he created a police force. Ever since then, there's been a discussion that Haiti should restore its army.

The argument against that is that it doesn't have the resources and the army was really an instrument for the elite and the politicians to foment dissent in the country, coup d'etat and whatnot. It sounds very familiar to today, let's say, the gangs and the army. What happened is the police were very politicized. All the president, prime minister undermined the police forces' power, and so it became toothless. One of the things that I want to follow up on what the caller said, which was really laying out the challenges for intervention or against intervention, I don't think it's a binary choice.

I think what the United States can do and should do is really support the Haitian police, provide the police with the material, the intelligence apparatus, and everything else it needs to fight the gangs. I believe that they can fight the gangs, but they cannot do it by themselves. What will happen if that happens, you will go a long way to establish respect for the police in the eyes of the people of Haiti, and we'll be able to construct the country with that. That's a good first step, to empower the police and then the justice system and all of that. I think this is something the US can do right now.

Brian Lehrer: Here's another caller, Gasner in Queens, you're on WNYC. Hello, Gasner.

Gasner: Hello, Brian. Thanks for taking my call.

Brian Lehrer: Thanks. You're making it.

Gasner: What I would like to say is that there is no way anything is going to happen there as long as outsiders, the United States, France, Canada, keep dictating the terms of what should be done in Haiti. They had a meeting in Jamaica a couple of weeks ago, there was no Haitian delegation there. They basically tell them, "This is what we want you to do, this is the way we want you to do it." What about the Haitian input in all of this? The other thing is we want their intention to be right, to invest in the country not dictating who should be in power and how they should govern. We want investment. We do not want aid. Aid is not going to get Haiti anywhere, investment is.

Brian Lehrer: What's the difference between investment and aid the way you mean it?

Gasner: Aid is telling people this is $10 million, this is $100 million for food, for this, for medicine, and for that. Investment is helping people to sustain themselves by creating jobs. Why do we have to rely on the Dominican Republic for everything when we have more fertile soil than Dominican Republic? It is just about investment. Those multinationals, they want to invest in the Dominican Republic, but not in Haiti. The reason they want to do that or the reason that your invitee has been telling you at first, back to colonialism, they want us to stay under their grip. This is what has to stop. If they want to help us, let us make the decision and they can support us, but not telling us what we should do every single time.

Brian Lehrer: Gasner, thank you very much. Garry, your comment?

Garry Pierre-Pierre: Gasner makes very valid points, but I would turn it back to him and say, "Okay, what are you willing to do? How engaged are you in turning the things around?" I tell people I'm an American of Haitian ancestry. I'm an American citizen. I do have some leverage to petition my government. I think Haitian Americans have to start thinking that way and being more active, not just passive because we've been very passive about the situation in Haiti because, as Gasner said as well, it's a fact, ultimately, the French and the Americans, they'll do whatever, but we are part of the Americans and what can we do?

Senator Chuck Schumer has one of the largest Haitian constituents in the country, so what dialogue are we having with him? Are we pushing him to make speeches like he made about Israel the other day? That was a courageous stand on his part. Do we have someone? Are we operating at that level? Until we start doing that, they will impose things that's not at Haiti's best interest.

By the way, France has not been much of a player in Haiti for the last 25 years or so. It has left. They have an embassy, of course, but there's not any French influence whatsoever. With the advent of the Haitian diaspora, the US has become the main international partner. Canada somewhat, but France, we could take it out of the equation for the time being. It has no influence or no resources to commit to Haiti right now.

Brian Lehrer: In fact, here's a listener question. "Why was Kenya considering sending troops? Does Kenya have any connection to Haiti?"

Garry Pierre-Pierre: These things happen. It's a geopolitical decision that the Pentagon and the State Department makes. If people remember, last time there was a UN intervention, it was led by Brazil and Chile. At the time, these countries had regional aspirations to be leaders. In East Africa, Kenya has similar aspirations. The Defense Department and the State Department enlisted them and they are interested in doing it. The whole idea is I don't think we even need foreign troops really. You need to support the Haitian National Police. The money that they're going to give to Kenya, why don't you hire some more police, get some advisors to help them deal with the situation?

I'm not a proponent of spending on foreign soldiers or police officers because it's a bad look. The memory of the last one is still fresh. It didn't end well for anyone, the UN, the Haitian people, Haiti in general. We cannot really go back to failed tactics. It didn't work and I don't think it's going to work this time. It will pacify them. They'll lay low anyway until you leave because these foreign forces ultimately have to leave. Let's work together with the Haitian police. There are some good and patriotic officers in the police force. There are enough of them that if they have the proper backup, they can get the job done. Therefore, we don't really need a foreign troop per se to come save Haiti.

Haiti has to save itself because we've been trying to save Haiti and it hasn't been working. Let's try. To be fair, Brian, the State Department has been talking about the Haitian-led solution. I don't know if it's just empty words, but that's what the policy appears to be. They held several meetings two years ago after the assassination of President Jovenel Moïse to come up with a solution. Again, the diaspora is holding Zoom meetings that comes with nothing. We haven't been able to propose something constructive to the State Department as to what we think should happen, and they've been asking that.

I'll criticize the State Department when it needs to be criticized, but in this case, I cannot say they haven't been at least talking that talk and then making sure that we are involved. I've been in briefings with the State Department when they're trying to look. I'm still a journalist. I try to maintain my journalistic ethics and integrity and not trying to be a player in this because I want to keep a certain distance so that I can be able to see the big picture and not be embroiled into this whole thing. The State Department is looking for solutions from Haitian diaspora, and we're still not providing them with some guidance.

Brian Lehrer: Could part of the solution come from the gang leaders themselves? I've read that the head of this current gang uprising, Jimmy Chérizier also known as Barbecue, maybe people have heard that nickname, he's calling this uprising an armed revolution, stepping into a more political role by, from what I've read, apologizing for the violence perpetrated on Haitian civilians.

Garry Pierre-Pierre: Yes. This thing has gotten complicated because right now, any solution you have to-- it's not directly but somehow include them in the mix because, as the caller earlier said, the way people have been marginalized, and I mentioned it, is a problem we need to address. Here's the thing, Brian, the gang problem is the least of our problem, rebuilding the society is a bigger challenge because you can't militarily deal with the gangs. I don't know how hardened they are because they've never been shot back at, they've never had heavy weapons shot back at them. What do they do? We don't know. I'm not sure they know what to do, and so that can be taken care of.

I'm sure you have some military experts listening who will agree that, yes, they can deal with the gangs. The problem is the child soldiers, the teenagers who were the rank and file of these gang army. It's almost similar to Liberia and Sierra Leone when we had the child soldier, where you have to deal with that and build a society. Right now there are very few people left in Haiti who are middle class or professionals that could help. Everybody would have to come back. 90% of the people that you need to build a society, they're out of Haiti right now.

Brian Lehrer: Last question, do you need more buy-in from the American public generally? There's a lot of attention to other parts of the world that are in crisis. Obviously, there's a lot of American feeling of connection to the Israel-Gaza situation from various populations in this country and for various historical and religious and all kinds of reasons. Haiti, there is a big Haitian diaspora in the New York area, absolutely in the Miami area. Little bit elsewhere.

I actually want to play a clip of Joe Biden from when he was in the Senate in 1994 during the crisis after Prime Minister Aristide had been deposed in a coup. This is from a PBS interview with Charlie Rose on PBS in '94. He's not saying this is his own opinion, but this is how he's characterizing American attitudes or how much Americans care. Listen.

Joe Biden: A God awful thing to say, if Haiti just quietly sunk into the Caribbean or rose up 300 feet, it wouldn't matter a whole lot.

Brian Lehrer: If that is still the case, how do you get Americans to care enough even while you're debating whether American intervention is helpful or harmful?

Garry Pierre-Pierre: I think the first American that needs to say something are the Haitian Americans. I think we have to do a job to mobilize our neighbors, friends, and acquaintances about Haiti. That's one of the reasons, Brian, why I left mainstream journalism, The New York Times, to do The Haitian Times. I wanted to provide us with a voice at least of reason that we could look at the situation from an American point of view as Haitian American and to provide the Haitian diaspora a point of view about what's happening in Haiti because we're the ones with everything to lose.

I was born in Haiti. I left Haiti. I was 11 years old. Haiti is part of me and it will always remain. My children are still connected to Haiti and this is the continuation. This is a calling, a challenge to my fellow Haitian Americans. You cannot sit and do nothing. We need to organize because the country is in danger. This time it's serious. I've never said that. I could always have an explanation for why this situation is happening. This is a society breaking down. This is not something that you can come up with some policy that's going to fix it. We need to rebuild this nation, 1804 all over again.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Garry, for illuminating our listeners about what's going on in Haiti. The Haitian Times publishes in New York largely for the diaspora, and Garry Pierre-Pierre is the editor and publisher. Thank you very, very much.

Garry Pierre-Pierre: Thanks for having me, Brian.

 

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