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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. If you've been on Gothamist this morning, maybe you've seen the new article by our data reporter Jaclyn Jeffrey-Wilensky, about the fecal matter that people track into our homes from our shoes. She'll answer your questions on that as we talk about a study that is raising her eyebrows and a lot of other people's. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. I think this is going to rekindle the old shoes on or shoes off in the house debate. Hey, Jaclyn. Thanks for coming on.

Jaclyn Jeffrey-Wilensky: Hi. Thank you for having me, and sorry in advance that this is so disgusting.

Brian Lehrer: [laughs] What's the study? As long as the poo is on your feet not coming out of your mouth, the [unintelligible 00:01:02] City has their little hang-ups, but what was this study?

Jaclyn Jeffrey-Wilensky: This study was done by a student and professor team at Marymount Manhattan College. They actually got the idea from doing something that we do all the time, which is walking around city streets dodging dog poop. That got them thinking how much poop bacteria is on the street even when there isn't dog poop, and how much of it are we bringing in? They used some data collection and analysis to do just that, to study just that.

Brian Lehrer: How much are we bringing in? Of what?

Jaclyn Jeffrey-Wilensky: The specific numbers aren't very meaningful because, how do we know what is a large amount? What they found-- Sorry, just give me one second, there's a siren going by.

Brian Lehrer: That's okay.

Jaclyn Jeffrey-Wilensky: They found tens of thousands of these particular bacteria called Enterococci, which they use to gauge how much other more nasty poop bacteria might be on those surfaces. They said they found 22,000 Enterococci per square meter of carpet, specifically on their college campus, and about 30,000 per airplane bottle-sized bottle of water taken from sidewalk puddles, a little specific, but still pretty gross.

Brian Lehrer: Is that bacteria really called Enterococci?

Jaclyn Jeffrey-Wilensky: Yes, it is. It's found in the intestinal tracts of most mammals, and it really isn't like the nastiest bacteria out there, it's just an indicator of other types of bacteria like E. coli.

Brian Lehrer: Sounds like the crap that prosecutors would fling. Enterococci. [chuckles] What does this mean? Okay. Here's the old epidemiology class skeptic in me, that says, "Okay. Sure. Fine." Is anybody actually getting sick from this?

Jaclyn Jeffrey-Wilensky: You're very right to be skeptical, and experts I spoke to who weren't involved in the study, raise the point that most of the time when you're getting sick from poop bacteria, it's from ingesting contaminated food, and not so much from just your shoes or the floor being gross. It's less about an imminent public health threat, and more just a feeling of achiness from knowing that those bacteria are on your shoes or on the floor.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Yet the first line in the headline of your article-- I know journalists don't always write their own headlines, so, I don't know who's our Gothamist headline writer, but the first line of the headline is, "Take off your shoes." Do people really have to take off their shoes to avoid getting sick from the stuff that their shoes come in contact with on the New York City sidewalks?

Jaclyn Jeffrey-Wilensky: I am not an expert in sanitation. I think it's more just a good idea to take off your shoes so as to not be spreading these bacteria. Even though we might not be eating off our shoes or eating off the floor, you might be touching the floor, if you have kids, they might be touching the floor. I wouldn't say it's cause for panic, it's more just if you don't like the idea of bringing extra poop bacteria into your home, it might be a good idea to take off your shoes. If you're not disturbed by that idea, by all means, keep your shoes on.

Brian Lehrer: Okay, listeners. Do we want to have the shoes on or shoes off debate? Who enforces what on other people who come into your home? 212-433 WNYC 212-433-9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer, for Jaclyn Jeffrey-Wilensky. Data reporter for WNYC news and Gothamist, maybe you saw the story on this study about how much expletive deleted we're tracking into our homes. 212-433 WNYC, 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer. Jaclyn, what about pets? Where do they come in?

Jaclyn Jeffrey-Wilensky: Obviously, dogs specifically are one of the main reasons why there is so much poop and poop bacteria on the streets. New York has long had a problem with unscoped dog poop. We even got a promise from city officials last year that they would "Crackdown" on violators of the pooper scooper law, because technically it is a violation of law, and technically, you're subject to a $250 fine if you don't pick up your dog's poop. That said, New Yorkers are still logging thousands of complaints in the last year alone about uncollected dog poop, according to 311 data.

Brian Lehrer: I think we're going to get close in a whole other direction here from Bill in Fort Lee. Bill, you are on WNYC. Hi, there.

Bill: Hi. All right. Sorry about this [unintelligible 00:05:52] Foot fungus is one of the biggest [unintelligible 00:05:56] out there. Regarding the shoes on or shoes off at home, are you better off wearing shoes to prevent the spread of foot fungus?

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. I guess especially if you're going into other people's homes, or I guess even for the people you live with, you're saying-- Yes. I guess it's a risk versus risk analysis there. If foot fungus is a common condition, and you don't want to spread it, that's an argument for keeping your feet covered with something in the house.

Jaclyn Jeffrey-Wilensky: Yes, absolutely.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead. Did you want to say something about that?

Jaclyn Jeffrey-Wilensky: Oh, sure. Well, the study didn't go into foot fungus, but like you said, it's a good argument for some type of foot covering, in my opinion, a great argument for house shoes or house slippers. Maybe even some that you offer to guests and then wash.

Brian Lehrer: Rachel on the Upper East Side has experience in this realm as a host, I think. Rachel, you're on WNYC. Hello?

Rachel: More as a parent. 50 years ago, I was a great embarrassment to my daughter until she started requesting her guests to do the same thing.

Brian Lehrer: Sorry, the beginning of your comment was cut off. When your kids were kids, you were asking--

Rachel: When my daughter was young, I was an embarrassment to her, because we would ask people to do that, because we thought it was not a good idea to bring in that filth from New York City into our apartment.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. You were the only one in the friends' group doing it at that time?

Rachel: You got it. Now, of course, when people come into her house, they are asked to take off their shoes.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. It's like that insurance commercial that maybe you saw on TV, "You can't help but become your parents."

Rachel: I'll tell her you said that.

Brian Lehrer: Rachel, thank you very much. Jaclyn, I don't know if you went into this new article, that it is a lot more common today than it used to be, asking people to take off their shoes when they come into your house.

Jaclyn Jeffrey-Wilensky: That's a great question. I didn't get too much insight into generational trends and taking shoes on and off. I chatted with a couple of people on the street near the university campus where the study was performed, and they both said they take off their shoes indoors in their own apartments. Although I did hear one person say that while she takes off her shoes in her own home, she resents being asked to take off her shoes in someone else's home because it's part of the outfit.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. I saw that in the article. I didn't really understand that, or it can make somebody angry, I guess, and think that there's a personal double standard there. Takes off her own shoes in her own home, but if she goes to someone else's home, she doesn't like being asked to do the same thing. What?

Jaclyn Jeffrey-Wilensky: Good enough for thee, but not for me.

Brian Lehrer: Richard who says he's a biologist in Yonkers, you're on WNYC. Hi, Richard.

Richard: Hi, Brian. I think the whole business of bacteria is overblown. There are bacteria in every breath you take, on every surface you touch, and of course, they're on the sidewalk, too. I remember before the pooper scooper law came into being, how horrible it was to walk around the city streets in the summer. Although I have to say at that time, I was a teenager on Fire Island, I would take my shoes off in June, and not put them on until September, and I would often come into the city barefoot. I think we really are all too focused on bacteria and their harm, and they're really not as harmful as everybody thinks they are.

Brian Lehrer: Richard, thank you very much. Monica in Brooklyn you're-- Oh, Jaclyn, I don't know if you want to respond to that or what any of the scientists who were involved in this study would say back to Richard?

Jaclyn Jeffrey-Wilensky: All I have to say is that that's such a great perspective both knowing that it used to be even more of a problem on city streets and that honestly, there's so much bacteria ambiently around us, that fixating on one type is a little bit counterproductive. It might just be because of the gross origins of this bacteria that it grabs our attention.

Brian Lehrer: I don't know if it applies here, but isn't there an argument that it's good to introduce some bacteria to keep your immune system healthy?

Jaclyn Jeffrey-Wilensky: That is one that I've heard before. I cannot comment as to its veracity, but it is something that I've heard anecdotally.

Brian Lehrer: Monica in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Monica.

Monica: Oh, thank you. When I'm riding the subway, and I see people put their feet up on the seat, you often think the same thing, and they walk in New York City streets. What they're picking up on the soles of their shoes, what are they leaving on those seats? Not only the clothing but the germs and you're talking about the poop?

Brian Lehrer: Monica, thank you very much. You got to say poop on the radio. Jaclyn, there are people who want their outdoor clothes overall taken off or take off their own outdoor clothes when they come home because they don't even want their pants seat that might have been on that subway seat that Monica was just describing that somebody might have put their feet up on sitting on their own dining room chairs.

Jaclyn Jeffrey-Wilensky: Yes, that is a perspective I've heard before. It's also one that I practice specifically with regard to the bed. The study actually did have some interesting findings when it came to different fabrics, different materials hanging on to bacteria. They found a lot more bacteria on carpeted surfaces than uncarpeted surfaces, and that was especially true in high-traffic areas like the entryway of the college. A fabric surface might hang on to bacteria more than say a non-porous surface.

Brian Lehrer: Michelle in Harlem you are WNYC. Hi, Michelle.

Michelle: Hey, how are you doing? I'm half Chinese and culturally, Chinese people take off their shoes before you enter the home. I continue that practice, and it's basically for hygiene reasons. I just don't want New York City gunk in my house. Also, during the wintertime I have carpets. I quickly googled the historical reasons because I didn't know why Chinese people took off the shoes and it dates back like years 1000. At least on internet said that back in the days when you were greeting lords, you took off your shoes and socks as part of I guess an honorific. Then the tables were really low. That's the historical antecedent, I guess of white Chinese people take off their shoes.

Brian Lehrer: Really interesting. Here's another cultural or cross-cultural call. Rosemarie in the East Village, you're on WNYC. Hi, Rosemarie.

Rosemarie: Hi. I think it's a cultural thing that here people are maybe reluctant to take off their shoes. Where I'm from people even don't ask. They come in, take off their shoes. They can even have slippers if they want to. My parents the first time when they visited me and I asked them to take their shoes off, they were very constant [unintelligible 00:13:11], but now, when they come here, everyone takes their shoes off. What everyone else said, you don't want to slip in all the stuff from the street, especially if you live in the East Village. Now it's impossible to come home with your shoes.

Brian Lehrer: That's a European word [unintelligible 00:13:26]. Rosemarie, thank you very much. Interestingly, if we take those two callers together, Jaclyn, we're the only ones who don't take off our shoes because we got the Europeans from that call, the Asians from the previous call.

Jaclyn Jeffrey-Wilensky: Well, you have to speak for yourself, Brian, because I also grew up in a shoes-off household, even growing up in an Ashkenazi Jewish household on Long Island, so it varies.

Brian Lehrer: Well, you definitely slept.

Jaclyn Jeffrey-Wilensky: Yes [unintelligible 00:13:54].

Brian Lehrer: Even if not on your shoes, and the caller Michelle mentioned rugs and that's in the study, right? Rugs versus hardwood floors or hard floors of any kind.

Jaclyn Jeffrey-Wilensky: There was definitely evidence that carpets-- at least from the samples that they took, they took little pieces of scotch tape essentially and taped up samples from carpet and the floor and then submerge them and counted the bacteria. They did find more bacteria on carpeted floors. A lot of that honestly could have to do with people coming in and wiping off their shoes on the entryway carpet. Even farther away they did find that carpet tended to retain more bacteria than on carpeted floor although the difference was less dramatic as you got to less trafficked areas.

Brian Lehrer: Gabriel in Astoria is going to get our last 15 seconds for something that he does to adapt to this, Gabriel we really only have 15 seconds but go for it.

Gabriel: Thanks, Brian. I bring along my clean shoes wherever I go and I change into them to friend's houses is more of a medical thing. I have high arches so it's a little painful to be barefoot but I found that people are surprisingly receptive to me--

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Brian Lehrer: Do you offer the same to your guests?

Gabriel: No, I let them do what they want then I get to sweep afterward.

Brian Lehrer: Gabriel, thank you very much. He sweeps so he can sleep. There we leave it with Jaclyn Jeffrey-Wilensky, WNYC, and Gothamist data reporter or article out today take off your shoes, poop bacteria are rampant on upper east side streets study finds. Thanks for sharing it with us, Jaclyn.

Jaclyn Jeffrey-Wilensky: Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: That's The Brian Lehrer Show for today. We say goodbye today to producer Shweta Watwe, who has become a valued member of our team during the last three months with us for a tempo opening we had. She moves on to other things as full-time producer Amina Srna rejoins today. Shweta thanks for all your ideas, and collaborativeness, and good luck, and have a great weekend everyone. Brian Lehrer on WNYC.

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