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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now, affordable housing without for-profit developers. We're joined by New York City Council Labor Committee Chair Carmen De La Rosa and Housing Chair Pierina Sanchez on their new bill to expand nonprofit ownership of housing, community ownership of housing as a weapon against displacement. Carmen De La Rosa's district is in Upper Manhattan and The Bronx, Washington Heights and Inwood, Kingsbridge Highbridge, Marble Hill. Pierina Sanchez's district is right next to it based in The Bronx, University Heights, Morris Heights, Fordham, Bedford Park, and other parts of Kingsbridge and Marble Hill. Council members, thanks for coming on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Council Member Pierina Sanchez: Thank you for having us.

Council Member Carmen De La Rosa: Yes, it's a pleasure to be here.

Brian Lehrer: First, for people who don't even realize you can have housing development these days without for-profit developers, can you just describe these categories that you're looking to expand, maybe as the housing committee chair? Council Member Sanchez, you want to start on that?

Council Member Sanchez: Yes, absolutely. Thank you, Brian. In the city of New York, we have many different kinds of housing. We have public housing, which was largely built in the '30s and '40s. We don't make very much of that anymore. We have private development, which is any company, LLC, private owners, sometimes they rezone. Sometimes they build without a rezoning. They can build housing in the city of New York.

We have a nonprofit community. Nonprofits including community land trusts increasingly, which are cooperative models of ownership. They also build housing in the city of New York. The breakdown between those three sources for new housing production in the city of New York has changed over time. Overwhelmingly at present, private development is really the way that it's done in New York City.

Brian Lehrer: Can you define or explain that term you just used for people who've never heard it before or don't understand it? Community land trust, what is that?

Council Member Sanchez: A community land trust is a kind of nonprofit organization. They're incorporated as 501(c)(3)s. They try to get their hands on land and then they govern that land in a cooperative manner. For instance, a community land trust might own a parcel. Then on that parcel, there might be a building. That building will be residential. The residents who live there, they're cooperative owners of that property. There's several different models. Cooper Union is one of the longest-standing community land trusts that we have in the city of New York, but it's really a vehicle of ownership in the city of New York that allows for cooperative governance.

Brian Lehrer: How much of that kind of housing is there?

Council Member Sanchez: It's a very small fraction in the city of New York, so much so that in the past decade, we saw an increase and uptick in support for community land trusts during the de Blasio administration. Really, we've been trying to build the capacity of that sector. When I say "we," I'm talking about affordable housing advocates, elected officials like Council Member De La Rosa and myself, and the advocacy community. It's really just a small portion right now.

Brian Lehrer: Council Member De La Rosa, do you want to add anything to what kind of housing there is in New York that is not-for-profit developer-driven?

Council Member De La Rosa: Yes. Well, we've seen examples of nonprofit models in our district in District 10 in Inwood and Washington Heights in situations where landlords who have previously owned and neglected buildings in our communities have been that building, that property has been stripped from those landlords. The city has actually granted those buildings to nonprofit developers to come in and renovate and bring those buildings back to life.

That is the case of 552 Academy. That's just a block away from where I reside in Inwood. We are seeing that those models have worked. Those are the type of models that we want to continue to see taking over in communities like ours that, unfortunately, have had the misfortune of having portfolios of buildings that have been managed by people like Daniel Ohebshalom, who was on the worst landlord list and has just recently been arrested for the neglect that he has caused to communities like ours.

Brian Lehrer: Your bill is to increase funding for this type of housing program. Council Member De La Rosa, by how much and how would that work?

Council Member De La Rosa: Sure, so it's a budget proposal. Right now, what we are saying is that our proposal is called the "Homes Now, Homes for Generation" proposal. It really calls for two common-sense investments in affordable home ownership and tenant protections. We're asking for the mayor and in this budget negotiation to allocate $2 billion. That will quadruple the city's investment in affordable home ownerships through programs that already exists through HPD.

The city currently finances very little home ownership, less than 1,500 units since 2007. We know that New York City builds Mitchell-Lama. Co-op City is a great example of that. We're asking for this money to be used in order to fund two programs. The Neighborhood Pillars program that supports community organization with real roots in our community to buy buildings that have been owned by the worst landlords and fix those buildings up, and the Neighborhood Pillars that is another program that exists in HPD. Our request this year is for $2 billion towards those purposes.

Brian Lehrer: How many units could this create? How much could it alleviate the affordable housing shortage in the city, Council Member De La Rosa?

Council Member De La Rosa: Well, right now, it depends on how much investment is actually put into these programs, right? I am the chair of the labor committee. We are looking forward to partnering with our partners in labor to make sure that we're paying things like prevailing wage and making sure that we are building affordable housing that is also sustainable for the workers of this city.

It really depends on how much investment we put into the program. We know that this is a sustainable model. These two programs have existed within the HPD portfolio. What we're asking for is basically to increase that investment in this budget cycle so that we can see, in addition to the mayor and the administration's plan, on how many units they are looking to build, their goals, that we add to that by making sure that affordability is at the heart of that.

Brian Lehrer: Same question, Council Member Sanchez, because I can imagine a lot of listeners hearing this and thinking, "Sounds good, but probably a drop in the bucket."

Council Member Sanchez: Thank you so much, Brian. $2 billion sounds like a lot of money and it does sound good. Yes, it would be a drop in the bucket, right? What we're talking about with $2 billion would be 3,500 units of shared equity housing. Some of those community land trust models that we started talking about of new construction. New construction, 3,500 units. That's not nothing, right?

Then with respect to the Neighborhood Pillars program, which is, as Council Member De La Rosa said, is a program that allows buildings that are owned by the worst of the worst in the city of New York. Carmen and I, we know a little bit about that. She just had a landlord arrested in her district for being so terrible and such a derelict owner. I just had a building collapse at 1915 Billingsley in December. Our districts have a lot of these examples.

There are 10,000 of these buildings across the city of New York that could be turned over into more responsible ownership and fixed up and addressed with this program. We're talking about preserving 7,500 units. Just to put this in context because that's something that I hear a lot and that we hear it a lot as council members, that's not going to solve it. That's just a drop in the bucket. That's not enough. Everyone who's saying all of these things, you're right. Yes, you are absolutely correct.

Because when we are talking about solving the housing crisis, it's like waking up in the morning and getting dressed. You don't put on your shoes and then walk out your door, right? You put on your shoes. You put on your pants, hopefully. You put on your jacket, right? You get completely dressed. When we're talking about solving for the housing crisis in the city of New York, we're talking about a multi-pronged approach of which this part, Housing Now, Housing for Generation, which is going to allow for homeownership opportunities, is going to focus on the middle class.

It's going to going to focus on low-income New Yorkers. That is a key pillar of solving the housing crisis. There's a lot of other things that we need to do at the same time, but this piece that focused on middle-class New York City and low-income New York City, which is, by the way, leaving in droves is what we saw with the housing vacancy survey two weeks ago, this is a critical component.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, does anyone live in a community-controlled housing development, community land trust-related one, or there are some other kinds as well who wants to extol their virtues or say anything else about the experience or the finances? 212-433-WNYC. Our lines are open, 212-433-9692, call or text. Anyone else with a housing policy question? Folks, I know we keep doing housing segments on the show, which can seem tedious to some of you if the problem just seems intractable, but we are in a budget season in Albany and City Council and Trenton, where there is an opportunity locally for new things right now.

Now is the time we have to be talking about what so many people consider the number one issue facing the New York, New Jersey metropolitan area. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. We will also touch on a few things in addition, so anything else for city council members De La Rosa and Sanchez on subway safety that we've been getting a lot of calls on. How about trash containers versus plastic bags, which we got a lot of calls on with the sanitation commissioner the other day? Migrant services, street safety, it's up to you callers, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

Council Member Sanchez, as housing committee chair, people sometimes call here and ask, "Why can't we just have more full-on public housing?" You mentioned it as one of the categories of housing at the beginning. It seems like the public housing projects we have, which so many people are on waiting lists to get into, were mostly built going on a century ago. How would you answer the question why we can't just have a lot more of that?

Council Member Sanchez: Yes. I often lay awake at night looking at my ceiling and wondering this question as well. I think the reason that we can't have it is a political one, right? The reason that the city council and this campaign, the Housing Now, Housing for Generations, it's a priority of the Progressive Caucus. Multiple council members outside of the caucus are also in support. We've got labor unions. We've got community organizations. The reason why we're focused on this proposal is because it is entirely within our control.

As city council members, as city officials passing a city budget, we control our budget. Now, when it comes to public housing, we know that the funds for public housing came from the federal government. It was a different time. There were different priorities. Public housing and public housing residents looked different. It's so much so the case that the political reality has changed for public housing that, today, the debate about public housing is whether or not to convert it to something different, right? They're called RAD conversions.

You see RAD is bad and you see all of these manifestations against privatizing public housing. It's because we have such a situation in Washington, DC, that it's hard to even get the public housing that we have today under Section 9 of the federal code to get that funded at the level that it needs. What we're seeing is more funding for Section 8 and these conversions that bring in private actors.

Yes, we lay down and we look up at our ceilings. I think a lot of us in the city of New York want more of that housing because we know the stability that it can provide for folks. In absence of federal action and the real federal dollars that it would take to accomplish that, Carmen and I, our colleagues in the council, the Progressive Caucus, the comptroller, we're putting our heads together in saying, "Hey, what do we have control over and how can we move the needle here?"

Brian Lehrer: That is the usual answer. So much of what we think of as public housing in New York came with federal funds back in the FDR-Mayor La Guardia era when the federal government was much more interested in that. Did you see, Council Member De La Rosa, that President Biden has a report on his desk now about new ways that the federal government can help with affordable housing, which we usually deal with as a local concern?

Council Member De La Rosa: Yes, it's exciting and it gives us hope that this is something that is being looked at. I visit our local public housing developments in the district. I can tell you that the promise of public housing was the promise that working-class New Yorkers would be able to afford to stay in our city. That reality because of the neglect that has happened in public housing is further and further away from the truth.

I visited seniors who can no longer live in their apartments because of the health risk that it causes them to live in apartments full of mold and sometimes lead. We've seen the reports. We desperately need federal action. We also need state and city action, right? As our wonderful chair of housing said, this is our way of making sure that we are adding tools to the toolbox to deal with a crisis that is impacting so many of our constituents.

Brian Lehrer: We'll deal in a separate segment with whether housing can actually break out as an issue in the presidential election. It looks like Biden is trying to make it so, very rare in presidential elections, but New York isn't the only place with a housing crisis even though it's more extreme here than most places in the United States. All right, we'll continue in a minute with our two members of the city council, a little more on housing, and we'll get to some of those other issues and with your call. Stay tuned.

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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone, as we continue with two members of the New York City Council, Carmen De La Rosa, who's the labor committee chair, and Pierina Sanchez, who's the housing committee chair on their new bill to expand nonprofit ownership of housing as a weapon against displacement. Here's Barbara, who says she lives in the Amalgamated Housing complex in The Bronx. You're on WNYC. Hi, Barbara.

Barbara: Hi. I used to be represented by Carmen. I like that. I live in Amalgamated housing, which is supposedly an affordable co-op. It's, in fact, the first one in New York, started in 1927. We are in very serious financial trouble because it takes money to sustain property. One of our problems is the government. When we deal with government agencies, it takes forever, so that's something I think people should look into.

Also, I think that the people you're talking to now ought to talk to the people in communities like mine and find out what the problems are that arise eventually. I think that you can't have only people with very low incomes. You need to have people with varied incomes paying varied amounts to sustain it. There are issues that they can learn. Anyway, we're not getting anything from anybody and neither are the other places at this point.

If you want to keep them going, if this is in Newark, people are supposed to come here, raise their children, see their grandchildren, go to the same nursery school, but we're not going to make it. There are a lot of serious things to look into it. Public housing fails because there was money in public housing and then there isn't public money in public housing to fix it. You need to plan for the future if you want this to be something for the future.

Brian Lehrer: Barbara, thank you. Council Member De La Rosa, since you were name-checked there as representing her, a cautionary tale?

Council Member De La Rosa: Yes, absolutely. I appreciate the comments, Barbara. I absolutely agree with you that we have to do more as government to make sure that we are meeting the needs of New Yorkers. One of the things that civil service and labor chair that I've talked often about, and especially in this budget season, is the high vacancy rate at city agencies.

If our agencies continue to be vacant, then it will take longer to serve New Yorkers. We've seen that in the delivery of services for SNAP benefits. We've seen that in the delivery of services on building inspections. We are aware that that is something that we're working on and that we're diligently looking at. In terms of the mix, I just want to say that I wholeheartedly agree with you.

One of the things that we've been looking at in terms of the affordability crisis is that it is no longer just about those constituents who are on fixed incomes, although they are a priority, and have stagnant incomes that don't increase. It's also about the working-class New Yorkers. It's about those union members who are fighting right now for a contract and have seen some wage improvements. When they get out of a certain bracket, they no longer are eligible under the current system for certain affordable housing units.

Yes, we have to cater the housing that we're building for people like nurses and teachers and firefighters and police officers who obviously are making a living in our city. They're not ultra-wealthy, but they are making a salary that sometimes takes them out of the bracket of the most affordable housing. Definitely, a mix has to exist. I agree with you that the investment has to be stable and long-term in order for these projects to work.

Brian Lehrer: Manuel in The Bronx, you're on WNYC. Hello, Manuel.

Manuel: Yes, good morning, Brian. Long-time listener. First of all, you have two great guests. I want to thank them both for doing what they do for the city. Your both guests are young. They don't understand what happened to the housing authority. I've been around. I used to be a developer. Andrew Cuomo and Clinton, this is all Democratic administration. Corrupt Democratic administration, Clinton.

They came up with this program, HOPE V, HOPE IV, HOPE VI, to destroy the housing authority, privatize for Andrew Cuomo's friend. He was the head of HUD and that program destroy it. No Republican administration, no Democratic administration can change what was approved under Clinton and Andrew Cuomo. The housing authorities are suffering because of the whole program. The only two people are concerned and that's what I have a problem with our side. I'm a progressive Democrat. I'm a socialist Democrat.

I can send you my copy of my registration. We're supporting sometimes wrong people because we don't want to say our side was wrong. Clinton and Cuomo destroyed the housing authority under the HOPE IV, HOPE V, and HOPE VI both to the housing authorities in Bronx, Newark. They destroyed the whole place because they want to privatize. I leave it to your two guests. I hope they will do, through the Congress, change the course that was started in 1996 and that has to end.

Brian Lehrer: Manuel, thank you very much. Well, Council Member Sanchez, name-checking Andrew Cuomo there, yes, back when people forget, he was the secretary of Housing and Urban Development under President Clinton.

Council Member Sanchez: That's right. Manuel, I'm not going to disagree with you. HOPE IV, HOPE V, HOPE VI were all extremely harmful to public housing. I may have been just a kid when some of those were being rolled out, but I absolutely have looked into those and understand the harm that they did to public housing. You are right. We need to have a different conversation. I appreciate you giving Carmen and I a promotion to elevate us to Congress to go over there and fight. [laughs]

Absolutely, we would want to see. Carmen, correct me, but I think that I speak for the both of us and so many of us in the city council where we want to see a reversal of those kind of policies that harmed public housing, that demolished public housing, and that took funding away from Section 9 to make sure that we have a sustainable model for public housing. On the flip side, Barbara from The Bronx, for our existing Mitchell-Lamas and co-ops, Amalgamated is just down the block from me.

I used to hang out in the laundry room where I was in high school because my best friend's grandma lived there and that's where she lived and so just on personal level there, but just an appreciation for the role that Amalgamated has played in stabilizing the community and providing people access to remain in the middle class because of having stability of housing costs. We have to stabilize these properties and that's very much so the job of government now.

Brian Lehrer: Let me get one more caller in here. Mulu. Is that line free? Can I go to Mulu? Mulu in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Mulu. Mulu, you're there? We've got about 30 seconds for you because we're going to run out of time in the segment. I want to touch one or two other things real quick with our guests. Mulu, you're there?

[silence]

Brian Lehrer: I don't know. Maybe he's on mute. Well, we'll see if we can get you back in just a second. Meanwhile, let me ask you about one or two other things real quick. One political obsession of the moment is subway safety. Another is the asylum seekers. Also, street safety from cars and mopeds and from and for e-bike riders. Also, rats and sanitation and the coming requirement for containers rather than plastic trash bags for all buildings. Council Member De La Rosa, let me ask you how you see that requirement working in your district for the containers. A lot of buildings. I'm a constituent of yours. You may know. I'm a 20-year Inwood resident. How well do you think that's going to work?

Council Member De La Rosa: Look, I think we need to give the buildings the tools they need in order to make sure that the pilot is successful. I have to say that. I've seen it at work. I've seen it in a little bit north of us in Shaun Abreu's district in Hamilton Heights. I've seen it. I think that it is a positive step, right? We know that the trash needs to get off the curb in New York City, not only to stop feeding the rats, but also to improve the quality of life of our constituents, right?

Oftentimes, you walk down the streets of Inwood. You walk down some of the busiest commercial corridors that are also residential. Because in our community, we're sharing space. Having containers, I think, will go a long way in making our streets a lot cleaner. I also have to give a little plug here to our city council. Coming off the pandemic, the sanitation budgets were drastically cut.

We have done a great job, I believe, in ensuring that the resources are there, that enforcement is happening in Inwood in our district. I specifically earmarked funds for extra pickups. We have a very close relationship with both Commissioner Tisch and the local superintendents to make sure that we're making a dent. The problem is big, but we are laser-focused on making sure that we continue to clean up our communities.

Brian Lehrer: Council Member Sanchez, last question, then we're going to be out of time in the segment. We're having this conversation about funding for community-controlled housing because it's budget season. You and city council are in negotiations with the mayor's office at this time. Where would the money come from for this? What would you have to defund to some degree in order to do it? What else can you alert our listeners will be the top one or two flashpoints in the budget negotiations in these last months of it?

Council Member Sanchez: Thank you. This campaign here, this proposal for Homes Now, Homes for Generation is a capital proposal. It's funded through the debt that the city takes on. It would be a part of our capital program. Look, we have a lot of projects in the pipeline. Some that are moving much lower than anticipated and others that are moving at pace. What we're talking about here is dedicating these capital funds to housing now, housing the middle-class and housing lower-income New Yorkers now through the capital budget.

If this can happen first, then it should because the capital budget is a little bit more fluid than the expense budget, that part of the budget, which is funded by the taxes that come out of your paychecks every week or two. Flashpoints, we just are about concluding our budget hearings in the city council for the preliminary budget, the first round of the mayor's proposal. The last one will be on Monday.

We see that 3-K and libraries are near the top of the list. There's a lot of flashpoints here staffing at different agencies. I think you'll have different members who are prioritizing different issues, but those have come to the top, 3-K, libraries, and staffing at our agencies, especially HRA and DSS and the housing agencies, which need the right people to be able to move these projects forward.

Brian Lehrer: There we leave it with city council members, Carmen De La Rosa, who's chair of the labor committee, and Pierina Sanchez, who's chair of the housing committee on their latest housing-related proposals. Carmen De La Rosa's district is in Upper Manhattan and the nearby Bronx. Council Member Sanchez's district is right next to De La Rosa's. They both have a little bit of Marble Hill, which you could do a whole other segment just asking people whether they think they're in The Bronx or think they're in Manhattan when they live in Marble Hill, but that's for another day. Thank you both very much.

Council Member Sanchez: Thank you so much.

Council Member De La Rosa: Thank you so much.

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