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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We talk on the show sometimes about the seeming policy war of all against all regarding the rules of the road on New York City streets. The cars, the trucks, the bikes, the e-bikes, the scooters and mopeds, the pedestrians, all resenting each other to some degree, while the leaders and interest groups tango over the best ways to bring safety and also allow people to move around as they must. More than 200 people a year are dying on city streets in crashes.

That multidimensional conflict is coming to a head in one part of Brooklyn that is certainly defining for the neighborhood, but also perhaps a template debate for the whole city. It's the McGuinness Boulevard area of Greenpoint where there are now competing groups called Make McGuinness Safe and Keep McGuinness Moving. Journalist, Gwynne Hogan has been reporting on this for the news organization, The City, Gwynne, formally of right here at WNYC. Hi, Gwynne, thanks for coming on for this. Welcome back to the show.

Gwynne Hogan: Thanks, Brian. Good to be here

Brian Lehrer: Give people not familiar the lay of the land, literally, to start out. What's McGuinness Boulevard like in Greenpoint, and geographically from where to where are we talking about?

Gwynne Hogan: McGuinness Boulevard is a Robert Moses-era street. It did not exist before that time. Several streets. A street had to be bulldozed of houses between, basically connects multiple highways, so it becomes this residential highway. On either side, you have very residential Greenpoint streets, but this is a four-lane street where trucks are often speeding. They're trying to get between the BQE and the Long Island Expressway.

You can either take it across into Queens or you can take it across the Greenpoint Avenue Bridge and hook up with I-95 that way. It is this really, really busy street that is also pretty treacherous for pedestrians and cyclists and motorists as well, frankly. Three people have been killed there in crashes in the past decade according to the DOT.

For years, there had been efforts to make the street safer, or residents have called for it. It all came to a head in 2021 when a beloved teacher at an elementary school just North of McGolrick Park, was killed on McGuinness Boulevard. That created this impetus for a lot of parents and kids at that school to organize once and for all to really push for the street to be redesigned. That's when they formed their group Make McGuinness Safe in the summer of 2021.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, let me tell all our other listeners, that people from Greenpoint are already flooding our phone lines before I even give out the phone number with strong opinions on this one way or another. Others in Greenpoint or anybody else who wants to ask Gwynne Hogan from the news organization, The City, a question or speak your piece, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. You can call or text that number.

The City has a plan for a makeover of McGuinness Boulevard there that has stirred up this political support and opposition. What's in the plan?

Gwynne Hogan: That's right. The plan basically is to go from a four-lane street down to a two-lane street. In order to do that, the DOT wants to remove a lane of traffic on either side, maintain most of the parking, and use that parking to create protected bike lanes on either side of the street.

This was a contentious plan that was subject to many, many, many community board meetings where this was discussed. Proponents of the plan understand that parking is an even more divisive issue in the neighborhood. They were like, "Okay, this is the compromise. We'll keep the parking, reduce the traffic lane, and that gives folks on different sides something to be happy for." It seemed it was going through the regular DOT community board. There were many meetings. The community board voted for a full comprehensive redesign that they had supported this.

Fast forward to early May where the DOT comes out with this final plan where they're going to take down two lanes of traffic, and all of a sudden this group that had formed several months ago kicks into action, this group called Keep McGuinness Moving. They have been papering the neighborhood with signs, residents have been getting mailers sent to their doors, robocall texts, all an effort to pump the brakes on this plan and kick it back to the drawing board.

The proponents of the redesign say, "Hey, we've been at the drawing board for two years. This is the result. The DOT's plan is the result of that plan," but this other group has emerged to try to walk back the plan and kick it back.

Brian Lehrer: There are these competing groups, Make McGuinness Safe and Keep McGuinness Moving. We're going to take a call from each side right now. Here is Bronwyn in Greenpoint who called in and identified themselves as co-founder of the Make McGuinness Safe Coalition. Bronwyn, you're on WNYC. Thank you so much for calling in.

Bronwyn: Hi, Brian. Thank you so much for having me and for covering this really important issue. I'm a long-time listener, first-time caller. I'm an 18-year resident of Greenpoint. I'm a parent to two children who attend PS 110 and who were taught by the teacher who was killed crossing McGuinness Boulevard in 2021. I also live a block from the intersection where Matt Jensen was killed.

After Matt's tragic death, there were so many conversations in the community about the grief and the shock, and then so many people started talking about McGuinness Boulevard and why is McGuinness Boulevard like this. I want to just give a little extra context to what it is.

McGuinness Boulevard is one mile long. This is not a massive artery that connects all of Brooklyn. It's a one-mile street that's four lanes that was built in the '50s to connect two highways. It's built to connect the BQE to the LIE. It's a very dangerous street. The arguments to transform McGinness started back when it was built, and there have been decades of advocacy to try and make changes, and there have been some changes, but they've been incremental.

Some facts; there have been three deaths in the last decade on McGuinness. There's a crash every other day on McGuinness. Remember, it's only a one-mile street. There's an injury every week on McGuinness Boulevard as a result of those crashes. Those are serious injuries because these cars have a passing lane culture. They're coming off of a highway and they're passing each other. They're not traveling at the 25-mile-an-hour speed limit. They're traveling like they're still on a highway.

We've realized with facts and data from the DOT that 30% to 50% of the cars and trucks on McGuinness are using it as it was designed by Robert Moses, which is to cut through the neighborhood. Those are not local deliveries to local businesses. They are not local trucks serving local businesses. They're not local drivers. They're not Ubers and Lyfts picking up local residents. They're entering at the beginning of McGuinness and exiting at the end going straight.

Brian Lehrer: Bronwyn, let me jump in for time and ask you one follow-up question then we're going to take a call from an opponent of the redesign. What's your take as a supporter on what the opponents are really fighting against? What are their interests? If it's the way you just described, "Oh, it's just people passing through to get from one interstate to another," then they wouldn't have an organized neighborhood coalition.

Gwynne has reported deeply on the role of the Argento family that owns Brooklyn Stages, and we have seen in other neighborhoods, local business interests opposed to some separated bike lanes because they think it's going to reduce foot traffic to their businesses, things like that. Who do you think your local opponents really are?

Bronwyn: I've canvases, spent hundreds of hours and spoken to thousands of residents canvassing at local farmers' markets for the last two years, talking to people about this. 9 times out of 10, somebody enters the conversation saying, "That's crazy. You can't take away a lane of traffic on McGuinness Boulevard. It's got so much traffic." When you lay out the facts and the data, 9 times out of 10, they'll sign our petition.

People are scared. The knee-jerk reaction to hearing that is that this can't possibly work and serve our neighborhood, but when you learn the facts and you look at the precedents like the 14th Street Busway or Vanderbilt Avenue, or you research and you see that retail businesses really profit from pedestrianizing streets like they're doing to McGuinness Boulevard, people come around and they end up supporting our campaign. There's a lot of fear, but there are also really good facts.

Brian Lehrer: For the drivers who are actually concerned about more traffic, people who have cars in the neighborhood who maybe live in the neighborhood, are you saying that's a necessary evil byproduct of something that's going to be, on balance, a much greater good, or are you saying no, there's not really going to be more slow traffic.

Bronwin: No, no. That's the biggest question and the biggest concern. After people learn that we're not taking away parking, which many people have been misled to believe that we are, the biggest concern is traffic. The DOT has told us that the reduction in vehicles that we need to make this work is less, is fewer, is smaller than the amount of cut-through traffic that exists. Google Maps will not be rerouting people down McGuinness Boulevard any longer, and traffic will rebalance.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. If they're cutting through Greenpoint to get to the BQE to avoid traffic on the Kosciuszko Bridge, that kind of thing, right?

Bronwyn: Exactly.

Brian Lehrer: Bronwyn, thank you very much for your call as we continue for another few minutes to talk about the conflict in the Greenpoint neighborhood of Brooklyn, obviously, over the city's proposal to remake McGuinness Boulevard to make it safer and the pushback that is coming from opponents of that and how this might actually be representative of battles that are taking place or may well take place in the future at other places in the city. Our guest is journalist Gwynne Hogan, who's been reporting on this for the news organization, The City. We just heard from a proponent of the redesign who called in. Now we're going to hear from an opponent, Lynn in Greenpoint. You're on WNYC. Hi Lynn.

Lynn: Hi. Thank you, Brian. I'm really glad that Bronwyn brought up data and the cut-through traffic argument because the data actually doesn't support this. There are so many problems with the final DOT report from last month. First place, it's barely 20 pages of minimal information, and they left out important data like traffic volume. The first report they did two years ago actually had a traffic volume study from 2021. It said, on average there are 55,000 vehicles per day on McGuinness Boulevard, and that 30% will need to be diverted. It even says that out of that 19,000, which is 30% of 55,000, some will go to local streets, the LIE, and the BQE.

Now they constantly talk about this cut-through traffic idea, but if you read the definition of cut-through traffic in their report, it's anybody who gets on the McGuinness just outside of Greenpoint. People who live in East Williamsburg or people who live two blocks to the east of BQE are actually considered cut-through traffic. I think there are a lot of people who are in favor of this plan who don't realize that they would fall under the definition of cut-through traffic.

The reality is that in all of north Brooklyn, there are only three roads to get you to Queens because the Newtown Creek is really long. You can get to Queens from McGuinness Boulevard to the Pulaski, McGuinness Boulevard to Greenpoint Avenue and the BQE. That's it. You have to go deep into Bushwick to get to Queens.

Brian Lehrer: Let me jump in and ask you to cut to the chase here. If you accept the premise that McGuinness Boulevard as it exists is a hazard to everybody with the number of crashes that we heard from our guest, the reporter who, by the way, Gwynne, thank you for being patient while we listen to these callers for a while and then I'm going to bring you back in, of course. The data on the number of injuries that regularly take place, the number of deaths in the last decade from the current design of the street, if you accept the premise that it's going to be a public safety positive to do this redesign, who gets hurt enough in the neighborhood to balance that out and not do it?

Lynn: Well, the idea that you're going to make McGuinness safe means that you're going to make all of the residential side streets much less safe because those 19,000 vehicles that need to get diverted, some of them, and they even say it in the report, are going to go into these quiet residential side streets. One of the reasons the perception of McGuinness being so dangerous is because every other street in Greenpoint is so quiet and narrow that you could just wander across any street in most of the residential neighborhoods in Greenpoint and not really worry about it but when you get to McGuinness, you actually have to pay attention.

People have this perception and there's such a perception being pushed that McGuinness is so dangerous. When we are talking about pro bike people who say nothing about e-bikes and the fact that we've had 13 deaths by fire from e-bike batteries in the last six months.

Brian Lehrer: Right. Well, they're not catching fire in the middle of traffic, but you are starting to answer what was going to be my last question, I think. Just as I asked the previous caller, who do you think your opposing interests are and what they really want, who do you think your opposing interests are and what they really want?

Lynn: What we really want is to go back to the drawing board because this DOT plan is so not backed up by data. I know even the people in favor--

Brian Lehrer: Who wants a bad plan and why, in your opinion?

Lynn: -want more studies of what is the impact to the side streets and the DOT has said they do not plan to do any studies.

Brian Lehrer: Lynn, I'm going to leave it there. Thank you very much. All right. Gwynne Hogan, you've been extremely patient. What were you thinking as you heard those two callers?

Gwynne Hogan: I think this has been such a difficult story to cover because emotions are really high and this is very polarizing in the community. I reported, which you mentioned a little bit earlier, how the Keep McGuinness Moving campaign had all these ties to the Argento family. I found that there was a list of 180 businesses that supported the push to push the plan back to the drawing board, and they were many LLCs and incorporateds. About a third of those businesses were linked to the Argento family.

That is not to say that the Argentos are the only ones that are concerned about this plan. As you heard from Lynn, there is a very vocal part of the community that would like to see the Boulevard stay the same. Some will say, I'm more afraid of bicycles, being hit by a bicycle in a protected bike lane, that that was more concerning to them than cars, even though that's not really what the data about who was killed by vehicles. It's cars and trucks, not bicycles.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, that's what really kills pedestrians. You've been with people before--

Gwynne Hogan: When you talk to people--

Brian Lehrer: If we were to open up the phones and ask, what are you more afraid of on a day-by-day basis as you walk the streets as a pedestrian in New York City, that you're going to get hit by a car, that you're going to be hit by an e-bike or a scooter? I think the answer is pretty likely to be a scooter or an e-bike.

Gwynne Hogan: It is really, as you set it up, the streets and sidewalks are this really contentious battleground. There's tension about neighborhood change that is overlaid onto this conversation about McGuinness Boulevard. A lot of anxiety about all those gigantic condo buildings going up on the shoreline that have nothing to do with McGuinness Boulevard and yet, when you talk to somebody about why they don't want the street redesigned, that's the third thing they'll say to you. There's a lot of very legitimate anxiety about neighborhood change in Greenpoint as there are in many neighborhoods across the city. This has become this really divisive lightning rod where there's arguments spilling out on the sidewalks.

Brian Lehrer: I want the listeners to know that your reporting in The City has focused on the role of the powerful Argento family in helping to organize the opposition. In short, they own a lot of the sound stage industry in Brooklyn. Why would a protected bike lane and fewer car lanes or the way the traffic might be rerouted, hurt them? Why do the Argento care? Why does the sound stage industry care

Gwynne Hogan: That is a very good question. One of the issues that this touches on, I think, is this McGuinness Boulevard is a very big connector for North Brooklyn's industrial business zone which the Argento owns a lot of property in. They own dozens and dozens of sound stages across North Brooklyn, Greenpoint, and Long Island City. Their trucks are coming in and out of the neighborhood, they have to get around. They're not the only trucks.

Obviously, there's lots of other industrial businesses in this zone. We saw other trucking companies come out in opposition to this plan because I think there's a concern that it will slow down traffic and it'll be harder for them to get where they're trying to go. There's a North Brooklyn- it's called Evergreen Exchange, they advocate for industrial businesses and they had voiced concerns and they'd mentioned one client that was like we mix cement and it's going to take us five minutes longer to mix cement and then it's going to be dry when we get it to the client. There has been a lot of advocacy over many years for industrial business owners in this area because of the importance of blue-collar middle-class jobs that these types of businesses can provide.

The counterpoint is the DOT has put bike lanes on many truck routes and with success not slowing down the traffic tremendously, so that's what the DOT will push back to that. If you look at Kent Avenue in Williamsburg, that's a truck route that has a bike lane on it and trucks are going up and down or just one way, I guess it's a one-way street it's not two-way.

Brian Lehrer: The local business, does your report indicate that the merchants are actually concerned about business? I happened to walk this weekend up Eighth Avenue in Manhattan from 42nd Street to Columbus Circle and there's a protected bike lane there but there is parking outside the barrier between the bike lane and the street. Thinking about the McGuinness Boulevard conflict, I saw the sidewalks were jammed with pedestrians, no shortage of foot traffic and plenty of open stores along the way. It's a very unscientific observation, and Eighth Avenue in Manhattan is not Greenpoint but it sure didn't seem like a protected bike lane was keeping people from walking around and shopping. I'm just curious if that is part of the argument.

Gwynne Hogan: McGuinness Boulevard is actually not that commercial. There are some pockets where it's commercial, but it's mostly-- There's definitely businesses along. There's a few restaurants but it's not like a avenue. It's a lot of residences, mostly, and industrial businesses.

I've heard some of the concerns from businesses that I have heard is more about transporting their items to the location or the industrial businesses that are nearby McGuinness Boulevard.

Brian Lehrer: All right, we have so many callers and so little time. Here's what we're going to do callers, and I'm going to hold you to it. We're going to do a 30-second speed round and take three more calls on various sides. Stephanie in Greenpoint, you're on WNYC. Stephanie, apologies in advance. Give it your best 30 seconds.

Stephanie: I will do. Thank you, Brian. I live about a block from McGuinness. I've driven, I've biked, I've walked it. I want to talk about daylighting. I live right on Eagle Street. If you go up to Eagle Street onto McGuinness, you're going to notice that there's a completely blind way to merge where everything merges into one place. It's incredibly dangerous, it's incredibly hard to drive into that, it's incredibly hard to bike into that, and you never really know who's coming.

I'm really excited for the daylighting that's going to be coming up and down McGuinness Boulevard because it's going to [inaudible 00:23:29] to walk there, bike there, and drive there.

Brian Lehrer: Stephanie, thank you very much. John in Greenpoint, with apologies, give it your best 30 seconds then I'm going to move on.

John: Hey, Brian. How are you doing? I'm a cyclist. I drive for work in the area. I think the proposed design was rushed. I think that there wasn't proper representation in Community Board 1. The activist group transportation alternative totally steamrolled members of the community that wanted to put their feedback about the design and how it's going to cause a traffic nightmare.

It's a vital artery and there's industrial businesses that need to be fed. My friends work at Brooklyn Stages, so this is going to be a nightmare they have to get deliveries all throughout the day. It's just a terrible plan. Members of the community were rug-pulled by Bronwyn and Kevin [unintelligible 00:24:15], all the activists that swarm Community Board 1 in Queens.

Brian Lehrer: You think they're just trying to make it as good for bicyclists as they possibly can and don't care enough about everybody else, is that what you were arguing?

John: No. I think their ultimate goal is to jam up this city to the point where people give up their cars, and it's just not realistic.

Brian Lehrer: John, I'm going to leave it there on that hot take point. The last 30 seconds is going to go to the council member who represents the area in city council who is also calling in. That's how many calls and types of calls this segment is bringing out. Councilmember Lincoln Wrestler, you're on WNYC. Hello, we've got 30 seconds for you, but you'll get the last word.

Councilmember Lincoln Wrestler: Thank you so much, Brian. I'm really proud that there's been such a robust and rigorous community engagement process over the last couple years to develop this plan. Every single elected official at the city, state, and federal level that represents Greenpoint has proudly supported the McGuinness Safe Plan. It's all about safety. We have a serious crash every week. The status quo is literally hurting, even killing our neighbors. We have to make real changes and by reducing lane of traffic in each direction we can knit the Greenpoint community back together.

Brian Lehrer: What did you say to the last caller who believes that the bicycle advocates are just trying to make drivers so frustrated that they give up their cars?

Councilmember Lincoln Wrestler: That's not what this is about. This is about making our neighborhood safe. I have friends who have suffered serious injuries on McGuinness Boulevard. This plan unifies the Greenpoint community. The industrial businesses that are concerned are going to be okay. The turning radiuses for trucks remain the same. There are commercial loading zones for businesses to have deliveries on every single block of McGuinness. I think there's a lot of anxiety and a lot of concern, but at the end of the day, this is a plan that will finally make McGuinness safe.

Brian Lehrer: We will see what happens, city council member Lincoln Wrestler, thank you for calling in. Gwynne Hogan is reporting on this for the nonprofit news organization, The City, by the way, Gwynne, who decides, and when, finally?

Gwynne Hogan: The DOT says it is considering the community feedback that was at this there was a big town hall two weeks ago held at Broadway Stages owned by the Argentos. There was, after that a big march in the streets and then a public bike ride proponents of the changes. The DOT says it's taking that into consideration and has said that the repainting will start this summer. I don't exactly know when that is, but I'll obviously be watching.

Brian Lehrer: [unintelligible 00:26:57] supposed to be soon. Gwynne, thanks a lot for coming on.

Gwynne Hogan: All right. Thanks, Brian.

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