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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. On October 5th 2017, The New York Times published a piece that disrupted nearly every pillar of power in this country. You remember the headline perhaps, it was, "Harvey Weinstein paid off sexual harassment accusers for decades." That story shed light on the persistent abusive behavior of one of the most powerful men in Hollywood. It catalyzed the movement that brought women to speak out against men who took advantage of them. They banded together under the hashtag MeToo, as you certainly know. Now there's a movie that depicts the events that led up to the publishing of that story.

With us in a minute, we will have New York Times investigative reporter Megan Twohey, one of the journalists who revealed the dark underbelly of Hollywood by uncovering Harvey Weinstein's decades of abuse. Her story and the story of her co-reporter Jodi Kantor is told in the recently released movie, She Said: Breaking the Sexual Harassment Story That Helped Ignite a Movement. Have you seen it yet? Here's a clip from the trailer for the film.

Speaker 1: What is it exactly that we're looking at here?

Speaker 2: These young women walked into what they all had reason to believe were business meetings.

Speaker 3: I can still see it, the hotel room, the floor plan. He kept trying to touch me.

Speaker 4: I asked him to leave me alone.

Speaker 2: Instead, they say he met them with threats and sexual demands.

Speaker 5: I was young, scared.

Speaker 6: This is bigger than Weinstein. This is about the system protecting abusers. I was silenced. I want my voice back.

Brian Lehrer: Megan Twohey, welcome to WNYC. Congratulations on being portrayed in a major motion picture.

Megan Twohey: Well, thanks so much. It's really nice to be with you.

Brian Lehrer: Can I start with asking you how surreal it is? You probably never imagined or maybe you did, getting into journalism, "Gee, I wonder who's going to portray me in the Hollywood blockbuster of my work," and it's Carey Mulligan. What is it like to see yourself portrayed on the big screen like that?

Megan Twohey: I can say with much confidence that it never crossed my mind coming up in journalism that there would ever be a movie depicting me and my colleagues on the big screen. We are still working to wrap our heads around it. Listen, we are so incredibly grateful to the filmmakers. When we were reporting this story, we were blown away by the incredible sources that we encountered, these brave women who put their reputations and their careers on the line to help us and to help expose the truth. To see them depicted on the big screen is something that we wish that movie goers could see more of the incredible sources that help bring these big stories to light.

For them to have their moment on the big screen, especially after Weinstein really threw them out with the trash and Hollywood so many years ago, is really satisfying to see. I would also say that in terms of journalism, there's I think, especially now, this particular moment in time when there's so many allegations of fake news, and the truth itself can feel elusive, to have a movie that really plunges people into the real New York Times, it was shot in the actual newsroom, and to see the work that we do behind the scenes. It's not glamorous, it's can be really difficult. I think that it'll be hopefully also a real education for some people to see the due diligence and all of the care that we take in pursuit of the truth.

Brian Lehrer: The movie largely is a journalistic procedural. Procedural people say Law and Order is a criminal justice procedural, this is a journalism procedural. The Washington Post review of the movie has the headline, "A new entry in the pantheon of great newspaper movies." I wonder what tradition you see this film in both cinematically and journalistically?

Megan Twohey: Listen, I think that we do feel like very fortunate to be following in the footsteps of some other great journalistic procedurals. There's been comparisons to Spotlight and All the President's Men. I think that what also sets this movie apart is, to go back to these incredible sources, there have been other movies that have depicted journalism and all of the work that goes into it. I think that what sets this movie apart is that it really lingers on some of the sources and the stories of the sources and the bravery of these sources. It's not just a quick [coughs]. There are moments where we're knocking on doors, and in some cases having doors slammed in our faces.

It was really ultimately a small number of women who had the courage to truly participate in this investigation, and ultimately, to go on the record. You see them deliberating and you learn more of their backstories. You talked about the impact of the story in the intro. We certainly never could have imagined that the story was going to play out this way, that it was going to help fuel the MeToo movement, and neither did our sources. Yet, they took this risk, they took this leap. I think to see them and to see their stories depicted with some depth is really something special.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, if you've seen She Said already, you can call up and talk about what you've seen on the screen. Remember, we don't have the director of the movie here or an actor who played in the movie, we have one of the people from real life who the movie is based on, based on her real life work, New York Times correspondent Megan Twohey. If you want to say anything about the movie to Megan Twohey, if you want to say anything about how her story about Harvey Weinstein back five years ago affected your life, your workplace, your outlook or anything, 212-433-WNYC, your calls are welcome. 212-433-9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer.

Megan, I just want to give you a chance to amplify even more what I think you've emphasized in your first couple of answers here, which is that, and it's been noted in the reviews. The film, I don't even think it ever shows Harvey Weinstein's face, because it's not focusing on the perpetrator primarily or solely. You're telling the stories of the victims. That's important to you, right?

Megan Twohey: Yes. Listen, I think that that would be a good question for the filmmakers. In our early conversations with them, they right away saw that the real focus should be on the women and the journalists as well, who helped brought this story to life. I think that it was a very wise decision. You can hear Weinstein's voice depicted a couple of times and in that movie. There's a scene in which at the very end, a very true to life scene in which Weinstein and his lawyers barged into The New York Times uninvited, the day before we published the story in one of their last ditch efforts to try to stop us.

I fielded that visit and took them into a conference room. It certainly was a memorable moment for me. They showed up with folders of photographs and information that they thought they could use to try to smear some of the women who would appear in our story. Listen, at that point we had the facts, we had documents, we had women who were on the record. There was nothing that they could do to stop us. In fact, this was just giving us a closer look at all of the underhanded tactics and slimy ways that he had operated in the world. If anything, it was motivating for us to get to the finish line and finally be able to publish.

Right away, the filmmaker, one of the producers, Dede Gardner, when we were talking about that had this vision of that you wouldn't even see his face, that you'd see him coming into The New York Times lobby, and you'd see me leading them into a conference room, but you wouldn't see them and you wouldn't even hear them. The movie just zooms in on my face, which is extremely calm in that moment. I think Carey Mulligan does a really good job of conveying what we all felt in that moment, which was there was nothing that they could do to stop us. The game was over and we had won, the truth had won.

Brian Lehrer: We're talking to New York Times correspondent Megan Twohey, whose work investigating Harvey Weinstein and reporting the stories of the women who Harvey Weinstein abused back in October of 2017, is now the subject of the movie She Said. Again, the original story published five years ago, "Harvey Weinstein paid off sexual harassment accusers for decades." Jennifer and East Harlem, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jennifer.

Jennifer: Good morning. Thank you for taking my call. I just want to say Ms. Twohey, your work and the work of your colleague, Ms Kantor, has been a life changing, experience for me. I have read your book, I've read your articles. I have not yet seen the film. It is very much a high priority in my life. I am a woman who has come forward throughout my life to report powerful men who have been protected and have completely transgressed. I have faced prison term threats. I have faced astronomical fines. I have had my academic and professional life derailed on various occasions in these efforts. What you would and Ms. Kantor have done I think is, again, life changing for those of us who care about this issue. I really commend you for your enormous public service.

Megan Twohey: Well, thank you so much for calling in. Listen, I don't know exactly what the details are of what you've experienced and what you've spoken out about in your life and in your work, but we've attended a couple different screenings of the film so far, and I think that there are a lot of people who are going to feel seen in this movie, whether it's speaking out about sexual harassment or sexual abuse, but just speaking out about wrongdoing period. I think that, yes, this was in some ways a pretty and admittedly heavy issue that we were reporting into but I think that the story of this investigation, and especially of the sources that we worked with, is ultimately like a very galvanizing one.

It shows what can happen when brave people do the right thing and tell the truth. Once again, these women never could have imagined what was on the other side of going on the record and participating in this journalism. At the end of the day, this very small number of women had a huge global impact. I think that's just a really ultimately inspiring lesson for everybody who is faced with some tough decisions in their lives about whether or not they're going to speak up and call out the wrongdoing that they're witnessing.

Brian Lehrer: Elizabeth and Yonkers, you're on WNYC with Megan Twohey. Hi Elizabeth.

Elizabeth: Hi Brian. How are you? Hi, Megan.

Megan: Hi.

Elizabeth: I could talk about this for an hour, but I want to talk about something very specific that you helped me with, my writing. I came to New York in 1983 as an 18 year old model, and the second time I was raped, it was because it was set up by my agent. The way they always got me was with shame, it's my fault. For many years I thought if only I'd had better agents, this wouldn't have happened to me. When women started coming out who were professional actresses and models that were making millions of dollars a year and started talking about what was happening, the shame that lifted from me, I can't quantify. It's hard to be a writer, and I know it's hard, and I want to thank you for what you do.

Megan Twohey: Well, thank you for that. I'm so sorry to hear about your experiences with sexual assault and the fact that you carried shame from those. You raise a good point, which we heard time and again, which was why are these women choosing to go to these hotel rooms to meet with this powerful producer? And the answer was, time and again, because their agents sent them there. These were work meetings that turned into something much more sinister. Even Weinstein's criminal attorney in his New York criminal case used that defense time and again. It's a perspective that just completely misses the mark and the responsibility, who's truly responsible for what happened here.

I'm so sorry to hear that you've had that experience. Our hope, our understanding is, that has changed. That those situations that were in many cases enabled, these predatory situations which were enabled by other individuals, whether it was agents or whether there were systems. At the end of the day, this wasn't just a story about one bad man. This was a story about the systems that enabled his predatory behavior.

Brian Lehrer: Elizabeth, thank you. I think it took courage even to make this phone call and might have helped people just hearing you. Thank you very much.

Elizabeth: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: To what you were just describing, Megan, I want to play a short clip, 20 second clip that appears in the film that was from real life. We have used this clip on the show in another context that I'll explain, but this was a clip that was released by The New Yorker, of an Italian model, Ambra Battilana Gutierrez, fending off advances from Harvey Weinstein. He didn't know this recording was being made, and this was her at his hotel room door. He speaks first.

Harvey Weinstein: "Don't have a fight with me in the hallway, please. I'm not going to do anything. I swear to my children. Please come in. On everything. I'm a famous guy.

Ambra Battilana Gutierrez: I'm feeling very uncomfortable right now.

Harvey Weinstein: Please come in now and one minute and if you want to leave when the guy comes with my jacket you can go.

Ambra Battilana Gutierrez: Why you said that, you touch my breast.

Harvey Weinstein: Please. I'm sorry. Just come on, I'm used to that. Come on.

Ambra Battilana Gutierrez: You're used to that?

Harvey Weinstein: Yes. Come in.

Brian Lehrer: It's so creepy. I played that clip for Manhattan DA Cy Vance asking him why that itself wasn't enough to prosecute Harvey Weinstein. Did you revisit that ground?

Megan Twohey: Yes, absolutely. It was one of the questions as we were reporting the story initially in 2017, there was one allegation that had in fact been reported to the police, which was Ambra's claim that he had sexually abused her when she showed up for a work meeting at his office. The police had investigated, they had had her, they had worked with her closely to have her wear that wire, with the hopes of obtaining some incriminating evidence. Then ultimately the prosecutor's office declined to bring charges. That was one of the many things that we were trying to understand how had that happened.

First of all, it was remarkable to us that there had actually only been one report to the police for what was emerging in our reporting as a downright predator. Then how was it that that one case had not been charged? Along with, Ronan Farrow who was able to obtain that recording, we've been able to piece together some of what happened, but I don't think we still have a satisfactory answer. I'd be curious to know what Cy Vance said on your show in response to that.

Brian Lehrer: Well, I don't want to quote him out of context, so we would have to go back and listen. I think it was something general about, well, that one clip of case of tape doesn't make a winnable case. Mary in Queens, you're on WNYC. You saw the film, right, Mary?

Mary: No, but I read one of the books. It brought to mind that I think I saw Miss Twohey in Bryant Park when she was asking a man if he had known about it, if he had seen it or something. I think I practically walked between them and thought, "This is rude." Then I heard her say, "Well, did you know that the--" I could see she was talking about the forbidden topic of sexual abuse and harassment. I was just like, "Oh." I had to put my hands on my head and I mouthed to her, "Good luck." The victims coming forward, they're very brave, but the work of these two reporters and their process is incredible.

I saw her walking sideways, just bouncing along to stay in front of her as he was trying to just walk away or ignore her. She was sideways a little bit in front of him, but bouncing along and kept asking him. I think she got a very important response at that time. I just mouthed to her, "Good luck." Then afterwards I just flopped into a chair that on the bench in the Bryant Park thinking, "Wow, this is incredible. Somebody's actually confronting this elephant in the world in New York." Does she remember that? Did I have that right?

Megan Twohey: That would be what a small world if you were in fact there that October day in 2017. I think that was a day or two before we published the story. She's talking about this moment when we went to Lance Maerov who was a member of the Board of Weinstein's company. This is the case with a lot of companies. You're supposed to have a board of outsiders who are there to make sure that the insiders are following the rules and that everything's going smoothly and fairly. Ideally that's how boards of companies are supposed to work.

We found out that the board of Weinstein's company had known in 2015, the year that Ambra had gone to the police with her allegation of sexual abuse by Weinstein, there had also been a junior executive within the company who had submitted a scathing internal memo to HR outlining all of these allegations of abuse and harassment by Weinstein. The board of his company knew not just about the police complaint, but also about this internal complaint that had been made with really serious allegations. That would've been a huge breakthrough for us in the course of our reporting, was when we got our hands on that internal memo.

That was a point where we went to Lance Maerov, had been one of the most vocal activist members of the board. I called him up and said, "We've got this memo that we know you were aware of in 2015. What did you do about it?" He agreed to meet me in Bryant Park for coffee. That scene is one of the scenes depicted in the movie, and very true to life in which I really pressed him on, "What did you know? When did you know it? What did you do about it?" This was like so many things, got covered up through a secret settlement. So many women had been silenced through secret settlements, but in this moment it was clear that this one particular member of the board had had some concerns.

He said to me in that moment, "Are you sure this isn't just young ambitious actresses who are trying to get ahead?" He really at the same time articulated what we heard so often, which was that the casting couch was the responsibility, something that flourished in Hollywood. It was really that the women as well as the men were to blame. Nothing was ever going to change. Even if we expose this nothing would change. Boy was he wrong.

BrianLehrer: Boy was he wrong. Mary, thank you for telling that story. I just want to make sure as we enter our last few minutes that I accurately separate, which I think I did not in the intro, the book from the movie. Your and your colleague Jodi Kantor's book about your reporting was called, She Said: Breaking the Sexual Harassment Story That Helped Ignite a Movement. The movie is just called, She Said. I hope you sell a lot more books [laughs] based on the release of the movie. I guess it's like, as you said, All the President's Men or Spotlight, which were feature films about real life journalism, but we just played that real life clip of Ambra and Harvey Weinstein.

Could people be confused because this isn't a documentary, it's a Hollywood feature film? Did they take any liberties with the story? Did they consult you before they did that? Are you happy that it's a feature film and not a documentary? Where does fiction meet nonfiction here?

Megan Twohey: That's a good question. You're right. It's really important to point out that this is not a documentary. We wrote like a 300 page book and we worked on this investigation for six months, and you have to condense that into a two hour film. Inevitably there are things that aren't depicted or that are slightly altered or fictionalized. That said, we really are so grateful for the care that the filmmakers took in doing this movie. We had obviously turned over our book to them that had everything that had happened in true life in great detail. They also took time to consult with us as they were working on the script, as they were preparing to shoot.

Carey Mulligan and Zoe Kazan who depict me and Jodi spent time with us as they were preparing to for filming. It was a strange role reversal. We're used to being the ones who are doing the questioning and the observing with the hopes that we can extract information that will serve our storytelling well. I'll confess that it was a little odd to be on the other side of that. At the end of the day, we were really impressed to see all of that research expressed on the big screen and to see that there are, down to the very font on some of the documents that were slipped to us, that were shared with us, to the moment when Ashley Judd actually plays herself in this movie.

There's a moment where she calls Jodi to tell her that she's going to go on the record. Jodi breaks down crying in front of us, in the newsroom in front of me and our editors, Rebecca Corbit and Dean Baquet and Matt Purdy. It was as if I was being plunged right back into that moment as it happened. I could tell the moment that I could see her face starting to crumble a bit and I could tell even before she said anything, I knew what had happened and it was just a hugely victorious moment as we were preparing to publish this story.

BrianLehrer: That's such a great touch, Ashley Judd playing herself in the movie. With that, we leave it, the movie is called, She Said the book that it's based on, as She Said: Breaking The Sexual Harassment Story That Helped Ignite a Movement. New York Times correspondent Megan Twohey. Congratulations on even being the subject of a film that details your work and the impact that it had on the nation and the world, and on the occasion of the first few days of the release of the film and theaters. Thanks a lot for coming on with us today. We really appreciate it.

Megan Twohey: Thanks for having me.

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