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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Well, as we've been mentioning over the last day, my special guest a little later this hour will be our own Alison Stewart host of All Of It in a very different context than you usually hear her. Alison wrote a book 10 years ago. She was even on the show 10 years ago, five years before she worked here for a book interview. Now she says her name and contents of her book have been taken out of context and used incorrectly by Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas in his affirmative action decision. We're going to talk in detail with Alison Stewart about that, how she feels she was misinterpreted in Clarence Thomas's opinion in the affirmative action case the other week, and the implications. Alison Stewart, coming up later this hour.

We begin today with the latest controversial actions by Mayor Eric Adams in his fight to keep the city from being what he sees as overwhelmed by the number of asylum seekers coming to the city with more than 50,000 now being housed by the city itself according to the mayor's count for a lack of private housing options that the asylum seekers have. The mayor announced at least two new things yesterday. He said single adult asylum seekers will only be given shelter at first for 60 days, then would have to reapply. Listen.

Mayor Adams: Those who do not find alternative housing by the time their 60 days are complete, they would be required to reapply for a new placement.

Brian Lehrer: Now, that would not apply to families with children, but childless adults would have only those initial 60 days to stay in a shelter automatically, that's a change from current policy and then they would be given a fresh evaluation. That's one thing. The other thing is language on a flyer that the city will be distributing at the Southern border according to the mayor, the flyer will include the words, “There is no guarantee we will be able to provide shelter and services to new arrivals.” Listen to some of that.

Mayor Adams: We want people to be faced with the real reality at the border, something that the federal government should be doing --

Brian Lehrer: He advises in this flyer people to please consider another city as you make your decision about where to settle in the US. Among those reacting to the flyer and the new shelter policy is New York City Comptroller Brad Lander, who joins us now. Comptroller, welcome back to WNYC.

Comptroller Brad Lander: Thank you so much, Brian. Good morning.

Brian Lehrer: You're quoted in The Times today saying the announcement undermines the city's right to shelter and New York's role as a beacon of promise as inscribed on the Statue of Liberty. Why do you feel that way?

Comptroller Brad Lander: Yes, that flyer breaks my heart. Those words, “Give me your tired, you're poor, you're huddled masses yearning to breathe free,” it's like we're telling the Statue of Liberty to turn her back on what has made New York not just a compassionate place, but a thriving economic place. Then just more practically, the right to shelter is the reason that New York City has fewer people sleeping on our streets every night than most other major US cities. There are both smarter and more compassionate ways to deal with the challenge we face here.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take these separately, the flyer and the 60-day adults without children initial shelter stay. Here's a little bit more of how the mayor put it in his news conference about why they're going to distribute flyers at the border that say, “Consider cities other than New York.”

Mayor Adams: Our cup has basically runeth over. We have no more room in this city.

Brian Lehrer: Is he wrong?

Comptroller Brad Lander: He is wrong. There are about 400,000 fewer people than there were in New York before the pandemic. There's challenges connecting people to housing, helping people file their applications for asylum so they could get work authorization. There's challenges as the council's pushing the mayor on getting more resources to help people get into permanent housing. Not only is there room, it's people coming here who want to work, to start businesses, to create, to do the work that we've needed, that for generations have made New York City's economy and culture thrive and it's shortsighted.

There is a challenge here. We do need more help from Washington. We do need more help from Albany. We can talk about a couple of very concrete ideas that I have instead of this 90-day kick-people out of the shelters and onto the streets. This is the wrong approach.

Brian Lehrer: Well, they do need ideas. In fact, listen to something else the mayor said in his news conference yesterday. I think we have that clip.

Mayor Adams: We have run out of ideas, and I just really need people to understand every day this team is figuring out where do we put the next body.

Brian Lehrer: Give him some ideas. Where do they put the next body?

Comptroller Brad Lander: Here's the idea I really would like to see them pushing. Right now, the mayor is in court seeking to overturn the right to shelter, which the city has operated with for a few decades now saying, “We don't want to have it anymore, Judge,” but that right to shelter is found in the New York State constitution. It's not in the city charter. It’s a right found in the state constitution. Instead of going into court to overturn the right to shelter, what they should be saying is, “Judge, this right to shelter is in the state constitution so it must be a state right.”

That means all of the other 57 counties of New York State have it just the same as we do. If that right were affirmed to be a statewide constitutional right, then the other 57 counties would be equally responsible with New York City finding shelter for these folks who are coming. Obviously, we're only about a third of New York State, so just doing that could open up as much as two-thirds more shelter capacity assistance support.

That would mean Albany had much more responsibility to provide resources to get in and pay for the shelter both in New York City and around the rest of the state. Then it would mean our whole state was at the White House and in Washington saying, “Okay, yes, the right to seek asylum is an international right that the US government has responsibility for. We are proud to keep our role welcoming immigrants, but we need the path to work authorization. We need the resources and support that the federal and state government can provide.”

It'll still be a challenge for the city to find additional spaces. The mayor is right about that, and they have worked very hard to expand shelter capacity to make room for 50,000 asylum seekers. New York City residents can and should be proud of that, but now, we don't have to start asking the Statue of Liberty to turn her back on folks.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, your reactions, welcome, questions too on Mayor Adams’ latest ways of dealing with the asylum seeker surge. 212-433-WNYC is our phone number as always, 212-433-9692. You can call or text 212-433-WNYC. Also, other topics that are relevant to Comptroller Brad Lander are fair game. We're going to talk about the so-called urban doom loop that some economics researchers at NYU and Columbia have come up with as a worst-case scenario for where New York City might be headed fiscally. We talked about that a little bit on the show earlier this week with a New York Times economics reporter in the context of the decline in value of New York City office buildings with so much hybrid work and remote work now. The theory is that that starts this economic spiral that will really, really hurt the city over time.

There's a related dire projection on state tax revenues from Comptroller Lander's compatriot at the state level, Tom DiNapoli. We're going to get into that as we go to also Rikers Island, which Comptroller Lander is always interested in the best outcomes for the people there and with some developments on that as it seems to be crashing toward a federal takeover. On any of those things, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text.

Comptroller Lander, let's pick up right where you left off in the last answer. I think the mayor's response to you framing this as a statewide responsibility, we have 57 counties in New York State of-- why is it 57? I'm not sure that’s good.

Comptroller Brad Lander: 62. I'm saying the other 57 need to be helping us.

Brian Lehrer: Right, got it. Besides the five Boroughs, which folks, if you don't know, a Borough is also a county in the context of the state map. You know the mayor's been trying, right? He would say, "I found hotels to use the shelters in Rockland County. I found- -them on Long Island, people are rejecting them. Those county executives, some of those town officials, they're going to court to do anything to keep the migrants out. What's the solution to that?

Comptroller Brad Lander: First, there's a lot of things that the city has done that I really do praise, finding space in New York City shelter system for 50,000 folks, starting a new program, still too small. But scaling up to help people file their asylum applications and then get work authorization six months later is actually probably the most cost-effective thing we can do to help people get out of shelter and into housing on their own that they're paying for because they can work, so much more we can do. People have to file their applications within one year, so time runs out. We got to scale that program up much faster. I fought to get more money in the city budget for it, and that was not successful so that's a program.

On the other counties, right now, New York City is finding those hotels and we're paying for them and then sending people out there. Those county executives, unfortunately, and some people in them are pushing back. I'm proposing something a little different. We're already in court on the right to shelter. Say to the judge, “Okay, it's a state constitutional right, so it must be a statewide obligation.” Then the judge can affirm that that's what is required by the state constitution and order the other counties.

It won't be between the mayor, one local executive to another, it would be the state court ordering all the counties to do what it has or essentially order New York City to do. It's not in Mayor Adams' hands to then force them to do it, but we are in court trying to overturn the right to shelter. Instead, let's be in court getting it clarified statewide.

Brian Lehrer: Well, who could file that suit? That's a really interesting scenario. Then all the other 57 county executives, if they didn't want to have to share the burden in some statistically distributed way, they would have to respond in court that, Nope, this is not our responsibility under the New York State constitution,” right?

Comptroller Brad Lander: That's right. Yes, I was very pleased to see yesterday that Steve Banks who used to lead the Legal Aid Society and then ran the city's homeless and social service systems has joined the Coalition for the Homeless and the Legal Aid Society as a petitioner back in that lawsuit. Maybe they could do it or the New York Immigration Coalition or New York Civil Liberties Union. It wouldn't be the city literally as the plaintiff. It would need to be people seeking shelter in those other counties, but obviously, the city could be a partner in that.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call from Michael in Fairfield, Connecticut who has a story relevant to this about him going on vacation up in Nova Scotia. Michael, I assume you found something other than wildfires up there. Michael, you're there, Michael in Fairfield?

Michael: Hi. Can you--?

Brian Lehrer: Oh, now we got you. Hi, Michael.

Michael: Can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: Yes, you're on. Hi, there.

Michael: Hi, this was a while ago. A couple of years ago we visited Halifax and there's a town across the bridge from Halifax. We stayed in a Hilton hotel and the first three stories of the seven-story hotel were reserved for the homeless. Now, I believe there's a Section 8, or there's housing in New York all over the place for the homeless, but it just seems that there's a plethora of hotel rooms and wouldn't there be some private sector or public sector communication that could deal with this acute issue right now?

Brian Lehrer: Well, this is what the mayor would say we don't have. That they're trying to create shelter beds in hotels, in former facilities of other kinds, that they are stretching everything beyond its limits. In fact, here's one more clip of the mayor from his news conference yesterday about the point he's trying to avoid getting to.

Mayor Adams: We don't want to reach the point, and we won't reach the point where families and children are living on our streets like you're seeing in other municipalities.

Brian Lehrer: Michael, thank you for your story from Nova Scotia but Comptroller Lander, this brings us to the other policy that we started to talk about. In addition to the flyer being distributed at the Southern border, you don't like the message that sends, a 60-day initial shelter stay limit for adults without children who've come as part of the asylum seeker wave. After that, they would need to reapply. What the mayor is saying there in that clip is he's going to continue to prioritize families with children. In the meantime, there just aren't enough rooms.

Comptroller Brad Lander: First, the mayor is right that New York City should be proud of the fact that we have so many fewer people sleeping on the streets than Los Angeles or San Francisco or Phoenix, or Las Vegas. Only about 5% of New York's homeless population are unsheltered, 70% of LA counties. That is because of the right to shelter that the mayor is limiting here. If you tell those folks after a couple of months, “Okay, you're out,” many of them are going to wind up sleeping on the streets. Of course, that's bad for them. Once you're sleeping on the street, much harder to get a job. You're much more likely to wind up going down hard paths of mental illness or substance abuse.

Of course, New Yorkers don't want that either. No one wants to live in a city with 10 cities and encampments and people sleeping on the street. That's why the right to shelter is so important. Let's focus on helping people get into permanent housing. I'll just give an example here. Those single adult asylum seekers are especially the ones who want to be working. That's what they came here to do. Rather than make them reapply for shelter after a couple of months, let's help them apply for asylum. We could assist them in filing their asylum applications. They'll then become eligible, whether or not, they might not get the hearing on their asylum case for years but six months after--

Brian Lehrer: That often takes years.

Comptroller Brad Lander: Six months after you apply, you're eligible for work authorization. The work authorization applications are still generally being processed in a timely fashion. While you wait to see if you get asylum, you are eligible to work. Again, six months after you apply and we could help them apply. That would just be a lot better use of their time and our time. Rather than saying, “Go and sleep on the street or reapply to come back in,” say, “You want to apply for asylum, we're going to connect you with a pro bono lawyer or lawyer who can help you apply. We're going to let you know six months later when you can get work authorization.

“We're going to bring in employers and help you then connect to employment,” and then folks will be working, and contributing, and paying their own rent, and moving out of the shelter system instead of pinging back and forth between the streets and the shelter system and sometimes the hospitals. It's not only-- not compassionate, not consistent with New York City's history of welcoming immigrants. It's just less cost-effective.

Brian Lehrer: I think Craig in Queens calling in, wants to push back on this idea of a glide path to work authorization as a major part of the solution. Craig, you're on WNYC with Comptroller Brad Lander. Hi there.

Craig: Hey, good morning, Brian. I just want to say you have working class people that's already in the shelter system. New York is an expensive city to live in. The notion that if somebody gets a job and tomorrow they're going to be able to find an apartment in a city where it's not an apartment shortage, a housing shortage, it's affordable housing shortage. These people economically with education would say, “Oh, they could just get a mid-level job and maybe start being able to pay for they self.” It's not true.

I'm a Democrat. Listen, I live in Southeast Queens. I've seen hotels that never came online before the pandemic, before the immigrant crisis, where those hotels was just turned into shelters. Now you have hotels. I drive for a living for hire where I pick up people from the airport and they say it's a shelter slash, like the previous guy from Nova Scotia said, where they have shelter people and they have regular hotel guests. People don't even know they're checking in a hotel and it's being a shelter.

It's not a cause of concern, but the city is doing that. Immigrants-- Everybody lauds Ellis Island, my family came through Ellis Island. When the city talks about maybe placing people off-site where they can have some kind of control, it's like, “Oh--” I'm not a fan of Eric Adams by no stretch of imagination but that's not a bad thing to get control. You know what to say, “We just have space, everybody can come.” 400,000 people left New York State, not New York City and that's why we lost a congressional seat. New York City itself actually gained in population.

Brian Lehrer: Since 2010, that's true. Craig, let me leave it there and get a response to you. Craig, appreciate it. Keep calling us. I guess the most specific point to respond to there Comptroller is what he said at the beginning of the call, that there are already people looking for work. The work authorization is just going to glut that market and force wages down and things like that.

Comptroller Brad Lander: Well, Craig is really right about a couple of things. First, New York City's housing affordability crisis is much broader- -than asylum seekers. The challenge for working-class families, for middle-class families to find housing they could afford to me is our biggest problem. We're going to talk about the urban doom loop later. If I have one problem to pick that makes me anxious about New York City's future, it's housing affordability. Craig is right implicitly saying we ought to be doing something more about that so that families like Craig's in Southeast Queens have a chance to buy like they might have used to in a Mitchell-Lama co-op or something to put down stakes and build here. That's obviously a much bigger subject, but we really can't lose it. There's a lot we need to be doing on broader issues, housing, affordability, building more housing like in the Gowanus rezoning that I supported, and lots of other things to do.

I guess what I would say for single adults who are seeking asylum, folks mostly young men who have walked here from Venezuela and who are here to work. If they get work authorization, I think the evidence shows they in many cases will double, triple, quadruple up with other folks like them, rent a relatively small place and be able to find housing in the private market with the money that they earn. That does not mean we don't need to focus on New Yorkers who have been in shelter a long time, help them find affordable housing, focus subsidies there. We can do those things at the same time.

Brian Lehrer: Well, as I'm sure you know, the mayor is very much for a rapid work authorization. He thinks it should be available to the asylum seekers in less than six months. They have a program to get them into the pipeline for that work authorization, I keep stumbling over that word, as quickly as possible. Are you saying that they just need to scale that up, that they're not getting enough of the asylum seekers into that pipeline quickly enough and they need to staff that up in some way?

Comptroller Brad Lander: Yes, that's exactly right. I share the mayor's point of view that Washington should make it faster. Should remove the six months and say as soon as you file your asylum application, you're eligible for work authorization right then. I support that. I've written it to Washington. I’ve advocated for it with both the congressional leaders and with the White House.

But right now, with that six-month lag, we do have way more people who have come to New York City, many of them in the shelter system, they're approaching their one-year deadline to file their asylum application, but they don't know the system. They walked across the border, they got a weird piece of paper that says-- About 95% of them, there was a survey that Make the Road New York did, don't know what they need to do to file, have not been connected to legal assistance.

The administration under Deputy Mayor Anne Williams-Isom, who I really think highly of, has started a program to connect people to pro bono law firms and some of the city's legal service contractors, but it’s very small and it has only gotten to a tiny portion of eligible folks to help them file those asylum applications and then help them with work authorization. This, we have to scale up fast because if you go beyond your one year from when you entered the country and you don't file the application, you lose your window and you go out of status.

Yes, they do have a good small pilot program, we got to scale that up quickly. I didn't hear anything from the mayor about that yesterday. I actually haven't heard the mayor talk about that program at all. The mayor is all about the flyers telling people not to come and not, “Here’s what I’m doing to get people connected to applications and connected to work authorization.”

Brian Lehrer: You're talking about different programs that maybe should be scaled up. I think Emmanuel in the Bronx has one of those that he wants to remind us of. Emmanuel, you're on WNYC with Comptroller Brad Lander. Hi there.

Speaker: Yes ma'am. [unintelligible 00:23:53]

Brian Lehrer: Do we have Emmanuel? I think Emmanuel's on two calls at once. All right, we'll try Emanuel again in a minute. Let me follow up on your criticism of the 60-day policy. Again, for listeners just joining us, one of the new policies with respect to the asylum seekers that the mayor announced yesterday is that if they are adults without children, they will only be given 60 days of shelter at first because there are so many now in the city's care with respect to housing, more than 50,000 who've come in the last two years. Only 60 days at first if you're an adult without children, and then you'll have to reapply.

What does reapply mean? Because I'm not sure I understand it. I think people are reacting to this, like he's saying, “After 60 days, we're going to kick you out on the street, but reapply and be reevaluated is different from that.” Might it just be some rubber stamp process? What's he really saying there as you understand it?

Comptroller Brad Lander: Well, I don't think we know well enough yet. Most people don't know that when you-- the right to shelter, it doesn't mean anybody who comes forward gets it. Actually, well more than half, we've been doing some research on this, well more than half of New Yorkers and people in general who present themselves for right to shelter are turned away because folks say, “Well, don't you have someplace else to live? Where were you staying last? Was that with family? Why aren't you still staying with them?”

Of course, in some cases, that helps people. It’s like, “Could we give you a one-shot deal to help you make a rent payment and stay in the housing you were in?” Obviously, that is way better for everyone. They deny a lot of people shelter

Brian Lehrer: Let me jump in for a minute on that because isn't that a benign interpretation of what the mayor said yesterday what they want to do more of. Don't let people just languish in the shelter system and keep taking up beds. If we can reevaluate them and determine for more individuals, if they do have other private sector options, and do that evaluation more aggressively and again after a 60-day interval, but they’ll keep sheltering people who have no other options.

Comptroller Brad Lander: This is where if what he had said was, “We're going to set this timeline in place and we're going to make sure you've gotten your opportunity to file your asylum application and get work authorization, and if you don't do that, then we're going to ask some more questions so that it was really about a path to housing and stability,” I might not be here on the radio this morning criticizing it. But to me what it was a part of just saying, “Don't come here. We don't want you. We're going to kick you out of shelter. Maybe we'll call it reapply, but it was done to say you don't have a guarantee.” We're making a flyer. You're probably going to post the flyer on your-- I just would ask New Yorkers to look at that flyer and think about whether it represents how you feel about what New York City is.

I agree with you that-- and I'm outlining a whole bunch of what I think are effective, smarter policies to get the rest of the state and the other municipalities involved. I’m all for that to demand more money from Washington and Albany. We must do that to connect more people to asylum applications and work authorizations to help people who have been in shelter for a long time get connected to permanent housing. The mayor is right that we have a crisis situation and we need more ways of addressing it. That it won't work just to keep having New York City without the state or the federal government pay for more and more people without a more creative approach.

On that, he's right, but it is possible to do that in a cost-effective and smart way that doesn't turn its back on this historic role New York City has played as a beacon of hope and welcome. Again, that also is critical to our own economic success. That number I gave about the census drop in New York City was just about New York City. The Census Bureau adjusted the numbers and it is how New York City has renewed itself in people, and in culture, and in economic vitality since the creation of this city. I think it's not just from one's heart, but also from the economic point of view as New York City's Chief Financial Officer, that finding ways to make that a virtuous circle that keeps going is wise for us.

Brian Lehrer: So much more to do with New York City comptroller, Brad Lander on this and other topics as well. Then as I mentioned at the top, later in the hour, our own Alison Stewart, who's going to talk about being misinterpreted by Clarence Thomas by name, he wrote down her name in a footnote in his affirmative action decision. She says, "Uh-uh, you misinterpreted my book." Alison Stewart coming up on that later in the hour. More with Comptroller Brad Lander first, more of your calls, stay with us.

Music - Marden Hill: Hijack

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC with New York City comptroller, Brad Lander. You also made news recently with a comptroller's audit that found of the 2,000 plus homeless New Yorkers the mayor had swept off the streets by shutting down homeless encampments, only three, that's three people out of more than 2,000 wound up with permanent housing. How did you do that audit and how did you conclude only three?

Comptroller Brad Lander: When we audit city programs and city agencies, that's a big responsibility of the controller's office, so we're doing them all the time. Charter requires us to audit every agency, something about it, a program like this, every agency at least once every four years. We go meet the agency. We ask for all their data. Those are actually their numbers. The Department of Homeless Services, when they did the sweeps last year essentially recorded people. The goal was to connect people. The primary goal was to connect people to- -services and shelter and housing, so they recorded the 2,308 people that were forcibly removed from where they were sleeping by the city sweeps and what happened.

The vast majority didn't even go into shelter for one night. Over 95% just went and slept somewhere else that night. About fewer than 5% went into shelter, but half the folks who went into shelter for a night left the next day so that fewer than 3% of people even stayed in shelter at all. Then, yes, we looked at how many of them once they were in shelter got connected to permanent housing and the number that they had was three people, which essentially means over 99% of those swept were still homeless.

Brian Lehrer: I'm glad you brought up the step to shelter in that response because I was thinking, well, maybe the city would be right if they said the goal was not homeless encampment directly to permanent housing. That's unrealistic. If lots of those New Yorkers moved from street encampments to shelter beds as a first step, that's also meaningful progress, but you're saying that didn't happen so much either?

Comptroller Brad Lander: Yes. About 5% for one night and then only half of that for more than that. Now, I'll give a little praise to the Adams administration here. They have opened what are called safe haven and stabilization beds, shelter beds that are less bureaucratic and outside of the traditional shelter system that a lot of folks who are sleeping on the street have resistance to entering. The folks who did accept shelter mostly went into those units.

I will take a little issue though with one thing. There is a lot of evidence that even people who are sleeping unsheltered and who might have histories of mental illness or substance abuse, if you do put them in an apartment, like set them up with a lease and wrap services around them, it's actually the best 70% to 90% of them based on studies all around the country of this policy called Housing First remain housed two years later. The city's doing a small pilot called Street to Housing, which has had great success so far. New York City effectively ended veterans' homelessness with a Housing First policy like that.

I think this is an area where the mayor and I agree that we need to do a lot more of that. Unfortunately, I don't think we agree that we need to end the sweeps because they're counterproductive and they continue despite the fact that they're so unsuccessful. Not only does almost no one get connected to shelter services or housing, but we found that a third of the encampments had been rebuilt just a couple of months later by having our auditors go out to the locations that had been swept and see what was happening there.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a caller with a shelter experience. I think it's Tree in Throgs Neck. Tree, you're on WNYC. Hi, there.

Tree: Hi. Yes. I agree with the comptroller that New York City has to remain a beacon for the rest of the country because my homeless story starts from, I came over from New Jersey and it's very streamlined. You go to PATH, you're placed and you stay there for probably about 90 days, 6 months, and then you'll get permanent housing, but I do think it should focus on families. There are a lot of women with children there from what I saw.

I've been in and out the shelter system three times, three times. Now it's been my longest out of it for four years. I do have FHEPS that helps pay my rent currently, but I'm concerned that now we are focusing so much on migrants, and migrant men, and everyone's talking about that, that we're forgetting the women and children that are there. There are some two-parent families there too as well, but there are a lot of women with children and we must, I think, focus on getting them out first before everyone else. That's my comment.

Brian Lehrer: I'm curious, Tree, if there's anything that you would want to cite to the listeners or to the comptroller that the shelter system did well that helped you and your family get back on your feet into private housing.

Tree: Well, what they've done well, and I'll say what I think is not doing well. What they've done well is tried to connect you with resources, but you have to be, I'll say this, I have a college degree. I'm pretty functional on myself, on my own. I don't think the system itself has enough resources for the not-for-profit groups that run them to help you to do other things. There's so much pressure on them getting you out by that deadline, I think it's 90 days, 6 months, whatever it is, that they have to do that. They're focused on that and not so much connecting you with services. You have to do a lot of the work yourself to find the things. I was able to find a school, get a letter of certificate, and that's how I was able to now get a job.

Brian Lehrer: Right, so there's some of the good and some of what they could do better. Tree, thank you so much for sharing your experience. Good luck to you and your family. There's this shell game, comptroller, with homeless New Yorkers, which is not to minimize how difficult it is to find solutions, but they're swept off the streets. Some go to shell shelters, many others go to the subways. Then the police officer surge in the subways, clears them out of there because so many people don't want them there.

Then a few more do go to shelters, but many more go back to the street and then the City Council passes a right to sleep outside measure as part of a homeless person's bill of rights. They passed that last year. Then so many other New Yorkers feel that their neighborhood's quality of life declines because there are these homeless encampments or individuals sleeping on the streets, and round and round and round it goes.

Comptroller Brad Lander: But sometimes that cycle breaks. I have to say. Listening to Tree makes me feel some hope here when we get the services right and can help support people. Now it sounds like she's four years out of the shelter system and on her feet. Around the corner from my house in Park Slope are two shelters that are largely migrant families run by WIN, formerly Women In Need. They're the ones who put me onto this idea of let's bring in the applications for asylum and work authorization and they're just doing amazing work.

There was some anxiety for sure in my neighborhood when these two shelters with 250 units in total came in a couple of years ago, and yet it's really I think strengthened the neighborhood. A lot of those kids are in the public school at the end of my Black grade school PS 124 in Brooklyn that has more students now and, therefore, is able to have more staff, and I think helping all its kids thrive. Lots of challenges. I really don't want to minimize them, but I do believe it's easy to get in that doom loop thinking and there are lots of challenges.

We have out-year budget gaps, we have a housing crisis, and yet this crazy, messy big city has been finding ways to convert that into helping people like Tree get on their feet and then thrive for their kids and their workplaces. That's what we got to keep finding ways to do.

Brian Lehrer: You just uttered the term doom loop. Let me go now and change topics. Just briefly, we're going to run out of time soon, but change topics to this economic doom loop that you as comptroller have certainly heard about. Since you're in charge of monitoring the city's fiscal health, the concept comes, I'll remind our listeners, from a Columbia and NYU study of what they call an urban doom loop scenario that they think the city is at risk of.

As office buildings remain less occupied, the buildings lose value, real estate tax revenues fall, the city can't maintain as many of the services we've been talking about, more people move away, those who can, tax revenues fall further, and down and down we go. Are we experiencing an urban doom loop to any degree in your opinion already?

Comptroller Brad Lander: I don't think we are, and I've got some data to back it up. I actually recently gave a presentation at the Federal Reserve Bank where Arpit Gupta, who is part of that study was and we had some dialogue about it. We absolutely have real risks. We've got big out-year budget gaps that have to be addressed, we've got that housing affordability crisis and obviously, the shift to remote and hybrid work is a real challenge for the city. I don't want to underestimate those challenges, but there are a lot of things speaking for New York City right now.

Tax revenues have actually been above projections and growing every quarter for the last two years. We're back to 99.7% of the level of pre-pandemic jobs we have and the number of office-using jobs is actually at a historic high. Of course, many people are maybe three days in the office, but their jobs are still here. We’d actually took the doom loop hypothesis that there'll be a drop in market values of 40% for office portfolios and asked what would that do to city tax revenue?

For a range of reasons found that would only reduce city revenues by 1%. That doesn't mean it's not a big deal. If you own one of those portfolios or you own the lunch counter downstairs, it's a real issue, but it is not going to- -crater city tax revenues. There's a lot of reasons to be optimistic. Three years ago, we were worried no one would ever want to live or work or ride the subway or go to a Broadway show.

Again, there's evidence people want to be here, work here, create here, start businesses here. We got to address all those challenges and make sure our streets are safe, and our schools are good, and especially that our housing is more affordable, but the city's economy has a lot of room to keep growing, and creating, and bringing people here from all around the world.

Brian Lehrer: Well, let's hope you are right and the academics are wrong. Last thing, when you were on recently, we talked largely about Rikers Island and there are Rikers developments this week. It's starting to look more likely that the federal government is going to take over Rikers Island from the city, that a court will order it to do so. What's your understanding of where they're at, and do you support a federal takeover today?

Comptroller Brad Lander: I do support a federal receiver and not with any joy, like eyes open to its challenges. I was the first citywide elected official to call for a receivership in the fall after months and months of looking at DOC data. I invite people to look at our website at comptroller.nyc.gov. We've got a great dashboard looking at a lot of these issues. I was encouraged to see US Attorney Damian Williams come out in favor of a receiver. We need it the way-- There's just a lack of transparency at Rikers now. They don't even report on deaths in custody. It's time for a federal receiver who has a range of things they can do with procurement flexibility, with some labor rules flexibility, and with a commitment to transparency to address the immediate crisis.

Then, of course, we got to get back to working on what it will actually take to close Rikers Island and have a more effective, less violent, and more humane system.

Brian Lehrer: New York City Comptroller Brad Lander, we always appreciate when you come on. Thanks so much.

Comptroller Brad Lander: Great to be with you. Thank you.

 

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