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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC, and we will turn now to the two debates. Last night there was a mayoral debate and there was a comptroller's debate. Did you know that there was one of each? Early voting in person begins tomorrow in the New York primary and last night yes, a New York City mayoral debate and a comptroller's debate on TV at the same time.

The comptroller's debate was also here on WNYC as we were a sponsor, along with New York 1 and the news organization, The City. Our Brigid Bergen was one of the questioners and she's about to join us.

Personally, I'll just say it, I think it was obnoxious of Channel 2 to schedule a completely elective mayoral debate at exactly the same time as one of just two official comptrollers' debates that will get any attention at all to that important but hardly covered campaign.

I don't know all the logistics Channel 2, but I don't know why they couldn't have preempted Inside Edition and Entertainment Tonight on some other day, just my two cents. In any case, WNYC's Brigid Bergen joins me now along with New York 1 political reporter, Gloria Pazmino. Hi, Brigid and Gloria. Welcome back to WNYC.

Brigid Bergen: Thank you, Brian.

Gloria Pazmino: Morning, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, you can call in with questions or comments on either campaign, but heads up, we will save half our lines for comptroller's race calls, so if we bump you because we're getting too many mayoral calls, it's not you, it's us, as we say in breakup land, don't be insulted. 646-435-7280.

Seriously, who watched or listened to the comptroller's debate last night and how did it inform your choices for that race? 646-435-7280. Did anyone make a specific point in that debate that you want to comment on or ask about? 646-435-7280.

Do you have any questions about what you heard there since we realize many of you probably feel you don't know all that much about the job of comptroller? We've been covering it all week on this show leading up to the debate. Hopefully, it's been informative but our phones are open for any of that at 646-435-7280, or tweet @BrianLehrer. Brigid, with a night to sleep on it, what are your biggest couple of takeaways from the comptroller's debate last night?

Brigid Bergen: I think the framing of this whole conversation is part of the story of last night, which is this is a race that is vitally important. The role of the comptroller it's really essential to the functioning of our city government, oversight of the city agencies and pension funds and yet, it is very hard to break through the noise of what is also an extremely crowded mayoral race.

In so doing, I think a lot of the comptroller candidates when they're talking about issues, they sound a lot like mayoral candidates, because it's much easier to talk about things like how you would provide oversight of an agency like the NYPD by talking about policies that will resonate with voters, as opposed to talking about things like audits of programs, and that's something I think we heard a lot of last night.

I tried to push some of the candidates to frame their answers more explicitly around what they could do in the comptroller's office, which doesn't control the budget of city agencies but can with whatever frequency they choose at least once every four years, but could be as frequently as they decide, dig deep into how agencies operate, administer programs, spend their funds, and then provide that information back to then help lawmakers in the City Council and the mayor's office make some decisions about whether those things are working.

We heard some ideas in that theme but we heard a lot more people talking about the types of programs that voters are more familiar with and the type of changes that voters might understand because it's pretty wonky stuff.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Like they talked about how much they want to defund the police or not, which isn't really the comptroller's job, but everybody seemed pretty anxious to talk about that. Gloria, were you toggling last night or how did you spend your cup runneth over with debate choices time?

Gloria Pazmino: Brian, I share the same exact frustration with you that you mentioned at the beginning. I had one eyeball on the comptroller debate and another one on the CBS debate with the mayoral candidates. Of course impossible to watch both at once, but my attention was focused on the mayoral debate and then I was able to catch the tail end of the comptroller debate and rewatch it and see all the coverage from it afterwards. It was a very unfortunate timing of the mayoral debate last night.

Brian Lehrer: What's the buzz at New York 1 about? Any news that came out of the comptroller's debate?

Gloria Pazmino: I think that in addition to what Brigid just said, it was interesting to-- and this is true of all the debates, we're often watching for who gets the most attacked, and I think we saw Corey Johnson, the current speaker of the City Council really-- he was, I think, the focus of many of the candidate's attacks, particularly from Councilman Brad Lander, who has been trying to inch up in the polls. The two obviously have served in the City Council for the past couple of years so an interesting dynamic between the two.

Brad Lander accusing the council speaker of being missing in action during budget negotiations, and the speaker trying to defend himself saying that Brad Lander was trying to confuse voters. It was an interesting-- This was another very packed virtual stage of you will, so candidates had very limited opportunity to really stand out from the pack, which is what you want to do in these debates as a candidate. You want to grab the viewer's attention.

The question is always whether or not your strategy works, or if it ends up upsetting the viewer because we often hear from people who watch these debates that they don't like when candidates speak over each other or interrupt or go over the allotted time, which is a dynamic we've seen in some of the previous debates.

Brian Lehrer: Let me play some clips for our listeners who didn't watch or listen to the debate last night. Hopefully, these will be informative. These first two will highlight exactly what Gloria was just saying about the temptation to interrupt or talk over in order to be noticed in a crowded field, just like the mayoral debate that we did. This was eight comptroller candidates.

To my eye and ear for someone who was tuning in to the race for the first time, the thing they probably couldn't help but notice was that Michelle Caruso-Cabrera who most people probably never heard of before, came to attack Corey Johnson, the pretty well known City Council speaker as failing to manage money well as City Council speaker. He came prepared to point out that Caruso-Cabrera was a Republican until 2015 and she is funded by Wall Street. Here's an example of the two going at each other. First, a few seconds of Caruso-Cabrera.

Michelle Caruso-Cabrera: The budget under Bill de Blasio and my opponent, Corey Johnson has gone up by $20 billion per year from 72 billion to 92 billion. Next year is going to be even bigger. Everyone listening here tonight, does this city feel $20 billion a year better to you? Do you feel safer? Is it more affordable? Is your health care better? We need to do better. We are a rich city, but we spend our money very badly.

Brian Lehrer: Here's part of Corey Johnson's response.

Corey Johnson: To answer Miss Caruso-Cabrera's point, we have invested in some great things, Universal pre-K, 3-K for All, expanding our social safety net, doing these things. Miss Caruso-Cabrera was a lifelong Republican until 2015, who supported abolishing Social Security and Medicare.

Brian Lehrer: Can you fact-check that, Brigid? Was she a Republican until 2015 who supported privatization of Social Security and Medicare as he claims, and is funded by pro-Trump Wall Streeters as he claims? We should say for a little bit of context on her that she primaried Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez from the right last year.

Brigid Bergen: That's right. We do know that Michelle Caruso-Cabrera did change parties. She actually emphasized-- [chuckles] She tried to point at other Democrats in the-- current Democrats who have also changed parties.

Brian Lehrer: Like Elizabeth Warren and Hillary Clinton she said.

Brigid Bergen: Of course, Hillary Clinton was a Republican back when she was a teenager, but that being said, Michelle Caruso-Cabrera did write a book called You Know I'm Right: More Prosperity, Less Government. There are chapters in there that talk about smaller government. One of the things that she-- Essentially, it's a treaty on fiscal conservatism, she has said that her views have evolved but I think it does raise this question about why someone would want this role and why someone would see this potentially as a way to inject themselves in city politics.

We do know that historically the comptroller's office does serve as a springboard for people who want to run for other positions, and it gives you a very large megaphone. You are a city-wide elected official, and then to the extent, you want to be a thorn in the side of the mayor and city hall, it gives you a platform to do that.

We saw even in the last open primary where we had Scott Stringer running against Elliot Spitzer, you could see how that was-- Both of those candidates were coming at the position with very different perspectives, but among them, it was how they could use the office to raise their own profile. I think one of the things that her presence on that debate stage last night, for people who aren't familiar with her, who have questions about why she would want it, she tried to make this pitch that she would be independent. It's head-scratching to say the least.

Brian Lehrer: They had several exchanges, like the one that we played. Like I say, I think a lot of casual viewers would have come away thinking, "Oh, Caruso-Cabrera or Corey Johnson because that was so prominent. They were attention-grabbing exchanges. As such, I would like to add that a listener could have overlooked that other candidates were very substantive as well, or maybe more substantive.

A few examples, Reshma Patel said she would audit the education department, Kevin Parker and Brian Benjamin both mentioned that they would audit the NYPD, David Weprin separated himself from most of the others by saying we need more police. Brad Lander talked about auditing the corrections department, following the tragic deaths related to incarceration that had been in the news. We're going to play a clip from that in a minute.

Here is candidate Brian Benjamin. He's a state senator from Manhattan, not all that well known outside his district, but he earned an undergraduate degree in public policy from Brown and an MBA from Harvard Business School, spent three years working in investment banking at Morgan Stanley, all of which he touts is relevant to being a comptroller. He's chair of the State Senate Revenue and Budget Committee, which is obviously relevant. Here's Senator Benjamin on the COVID relief money the city is getting from the federal government.

Brian Benjamin: I think the first order of business is to make sure that you're holding the city accountable, the mayor and the City Council. One place that we have to hold them accountable on is on COVID funds that are coming in, the federal funds that are coming in. $14 to $15 billion that are coming in and need to be managed to make sure that is being spent in a way that is consistent with the need for recovery.

What I would say is that, as I'm chair of the Senate Budget and Revenue Committee, I witness the fight between the mayor, the comptroller, and the governor on long-term borrowing. First, it was 7 billion, then it was 5 billion. There was a lot of back and forth. It would have been so much better if we all had worked together on that to figure out that problem. Fortunately, the federal government through the American rescue plan stepped in and bailed us out, but I don't expect that bailout to come next year.

Brian Lehrer: There's Brian Benjamin, a little sample of him, and here's Brad Lander, City Councilman from Brooklyn, co-founder of the council's progressive caucus some years ago. He has the endorsements of Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, AOC, and the New York Times. Lander talked about if elected, auditing the corrections department.

Brad Lander: One agency I want to dig in on is the department of corrections. This week marks the anniversary of the deaths of both Layleen Polanco and Kalief Browder who died in corrections custody. We actually incarcerate about fewer than one-half as many people as we did 10 years ago, but we're spending 20% more. We spend $447,000 to incarcerate a person for a year while awaiting trial. That's money we could instead be spending on mental health care, on supportive housing, on job opportunities for people like Layleen and Kalief. I'll dig in on the department of corrections and think about how we could be spending that money more effectively to keep communities safe.

Brian Lehrer: Gloria Pazmino from New York 1, can you talk about those two candidates and how they try to distinguish themselves from the pack or any of the others who may not have gotten as much of the spotlight for not being quite as combative last night?

Gloria Pazmino: Yes. I think we've seen a lot of this from Brad Lander. He, as you mentioned, Brian, has gotten a lot of the progressive's support. He has the endorsement of Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez, Elizabeth Warren. In fact, he, Brad Lander, had one of the first television ads up on the air featuring Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez.

He has certainly been trying to ride that wave. However, it has not really shown much in the way of results for him when it comes to polling. He has consistently been coming in third and I think he was even lower in the previous poll that we conducted at New York 1.z

He has tried to talk about the need to audit some of these agencies. I thought it was an interesting moment for him last night talking about wanting to audit the department of corrections. We've had a lot of discussion over the last few years about what is going to happen with Rikers Island. The future of Rikers Island, whether or not it's going to close, a plan that really seems up in the air at this point between whoever will be elected mayor next and whether or not the same plan that was approved will stay in place.

Someone like Brian Benjamin, as you said, does not have as much name recognition, but he has really been pushing his educational background and his business experience as someone who worked in finance as that being a skill that is needed in the comptroller's office. At the end of the day, the comptroller's ultimate job and responsibility is to look out for the pension funds of public city workers.

This is really a position of importance. They do have an oversight role to play. As Brigid mentioned, it is a position that enables you to have a very large platform and a very loud megaphone whether to criticize the mayor, criticize the City Council. I think it will be a position of extreme importance as we go into the next couple of years, because to the point that Brian Benjamin made regarding the federal bailout, we have been bailed out this year, but what's going to happen the next year and the year after that really is not clear.

The city's fiscal picture, despite the fact that we are very much bouncing back from this pandemic as we speak, remains not so bright if things continue as they are. There's a lot of responsibilities that the next comptroller would have specifically over this budgetary area.

Brian Lehrer: We've got five minutes left in this segment. Then we have the mayor as our next guest. It is the day before early voting starts. I will ask the mayor if he's decided who he's going to vote for yet and where he's going to vote, but let's hear from some of our callers. I'm going to ask you to keep it really brief on your reactions to the comptroller's debate last night.

Carol in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Carol, right to the point. Carol's listening on the radio instead of on her phone, so she's a little behind us. Max in Boerum Hill, you're on WNYC. Hi, Max.

Max: Hi, thanks for taking my call. Such a big fan of Brian and Brigid, of both of you. I came into the comptroller debate a fan of Brad Lander, but I was really impressed with Brian Benjamin. He really came as a standout, particularly talking about being on the board of trustees at Brown and talking about divestment but also talking about using the bully pulpit to pressure shareholders in places where the city is investing the pension funds.

Brian Lehrer: Max, thank you very much. Jean in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jean.

Jean: Did you say 'Jean'?

Brian Lehrer: Yes, it's you.

Jean: I learned a lot from the comptroller's debate. I'm a fan of Brad Lander. I'm going to vote for him, number one, but I had no idea who I was going to vote for 2, 3, 4, and now I do. I liked Brian Benjamin. I liked Patel, I forget her first name, but I liked her a lot.

Brian Lehrer: Reshma.

Jean: Reshma Patel, and there were others. It helped me a lot to figure out the Ranked Voting for myself.

Brian Lehrer: Jean, thank you so much. Alex in Greenwich Village, you're on WNYC. Hi, Alex.

Alex: Hi. Yes, I would echo those last few colors. Also, I know I love that Reshma Patel and Kevin Parker, both use their questions to the other candidates to talk about issues and less to attack a specific thing in any other candidate that they disagreed with. So that was really cool. Reshma Patel, in particular about domestic worker bill that's in the City Council. I like that.

Brian Lehrer: Alex, thank you very much. Ingrid in East Harlem, you're on WNYC. Hi, Ingrid.

Ingrid: Hey, love the show. I was with Max and I leaned on Lander because he had the New York Times support. I thought it was a very informative thing. I did not like Corey's attacks. I'm now learning about Brian Benjamin's pedigree. I'm actually vacillating between the two. I love them both. I really think that it was good. I was really glad I listened to it. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. As we run out of time, Brigid, you asked a raise your hand's question last night about who would cut the city payroll, who would reduce the size of the city's workforce? Is it fair to say that the three most conservative candidates were the ones who raised their hands; Weprin, Zach Iscol, and Caruso-Cabrera?

Brigid Bergen: I'm not sure if Iscol would position himself as the most conservative. He's coming at this role with a different background. He's served in the military. Helped manage the Javits Center during the pandemic. The way he talks about the role, he talks about looking not just at city agencies but trying to look at city problems and audit problems and the city's response to them. He is I think in a lane of his own.

Certainly, David Weprin and Michelle Caruso-Cabrera are appealing to more moderate to conservative Democratic voters. David Weprin is from Queens, long-serving elected official, has run for many, many different offices, and has support from some of the uniformed unions, and was also one of the only candidates who said he would not be interested in looking at parking placards as an issue.

Brian Lehrer: Aha.

Brigid Bergen: Parking placards, obviously something that are often used/abused by people with connections to uniformed agencies.

Brian Lehrer: Right. On the uniformed unions, he did have to take a question last night about whether the public should see it as a good thing that he's got all the police union endorsements. We leave it there. Watch Gloria Pazmino's Great Reporting on City Politics just about every night on Inside City Hall on New York 1. Gloria, I will certainly be watching. Thanks for coming on with us again today.

Gloria Pazmino: Thank you, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Brigid, unless the Supreme Court makes a decision that preempts us is going to come back on Monday show and tell you how to strategize your Ranked-Choice Voting. Brigid, thanks a lot.

Brigid Bergen: Thanks, Brian.

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