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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. We're thrilled to have back with us now Ibram X. Kendi and Keisha N. Blain for their new book that tells 400 years of African American history five years at a time. It's an innovative and very accessible approach to history featuring 80 writers who each take a five-year period. 80 x 5 = 400 years. They also have a poet contribute a piece at the end of each 40-year section. The title of the book is Four Hundred Souls: A community History of African America. A few of the chapters and contributors, just to give you an idea; Nicole Hannah-Jones from the 1619 Project on The First Arrival 1619-1624. Heather Andrea Williams on the Black Family 1649-1654.

WNYC's Kai Wright takes on The Virginia Slave Code 1704-1709 followed by Herb Boyd from the Amsterdam News on The Revolt in New York 1709-1714. There's Higher Education 1799-1804 by Craig Steven Wilder. Adam Serwer writes the Frederick Douglass section. Jamelle Bouie gets the Civil War. Isabel Wilkerson with a new take on The Great Migration 1914-1919. Of course, she wrote the classic book about that, The Warmth of Other Suns, and on up to the present.

Again, with us now are Dr. Keisha N. Blain, University of Pittsburgh historian, editor for The Washington Post made by history section, President of the African American Intellectual History Society, among other things. She's the author of the books, Until I Am Free and Set the World on Fire. Dr. Ibram X. Kendi directs the Boston University Center for anti-racist research, is a contributing writer for The Atlantic, and a CBS News correspondent and author of three New York Times number one bestsellers including probably his best known How to Be an Antiracist. Time Magazine last year named him one of the 100 most influential people in the world. Dr. Kendi and Dr. Blain, thank you so much for making this one of your stops on the day after the release of the book. Congratulations, and welcome back to WNYC.

Keisha N. Blain: Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Ibram X. Kendi: Yes, thank you so much, Brian.

Brian: Dr. Kendi, what does the title mean? Why Four Hundred Souls?

Dr. Kendi: I think when you read this book, when you reflect on Black America's history, when you imagine the stories, in many ways, you see miracles. You see people who were able to overcome and do the impossible. It's almost like a spiritual sort of quality to it, and so obviously, we're chronicling 400 years. In many ways, the history of African Americans has been soulful. That's why we decided to name it Four Hundred Souls.

Brian: Dr. Blain, can you talk about the format of five years at a time and what the goal for you as historians is with that?

Dr. Blain: Yes. We really wanted to make sure that the pieces were accessible. Of course, as historians, we understand the significance of periods, and we know that asking people to write about the history in five-year segments would certainly disrupt the way that we generally talk about the history and write about the history. It was intentional because it allowed them to reflect on the history, but also to be a bit creative and to figure out how much they could pack in just 2,000 words or less and what they could reveal about a particular period of US and certainly African American history.

Brian: Dr. Kendi, I saw you quoted on the format describing the idea of five years at a time as "What if we gave each period the same weight?" Do you think history gets flattened too much by focusing on big events like wars and presidencies too much?

Dr. Kendi: Without question. Even just as you have some Americans who are saying right now, "Let's move on from what happened at the Capitol on 1/6," you have some Americans who say, "Let's move on from the roughly 250 years that Black Americans were enslaved." They want to focus on roughly the last 150 or so years. One of the things by weighting it equally, you'll see in this narrative that indeed the majority of African America's existence since 1619 has been enslaved but even more importantly fighting that slavery.

Brian: Dr. Blain, you've said you're interested in history that connects the past to the present. Would you like to take any essay or five-year period from the book of your choice, is that too much choice, and make that connection?

Dr. Blain: Sure. One of the pieces that really speaks to me is the piece on Mariah Stewart. This is a piece that was written by the philosopher, Kathryn Sophia Belle. We asked Professor Belle to examine Mariah Stewart's life in the period of 1829-1834.

What is so powerful is when you read this narrative about this courageous Black woman, an abolitionist, a feminist, who boldly demanded rights and demanded the liberation of Black people in Boston in the 1830s, you really begin to see the connections, for example, to the Black Lives Matter Movement. You begin to understand the uprisings that we witnessed in this nation just a few months ago and the pivotal role that Black women played. This is not a new phenomenon. It actually is part and parcel of a larger pattern of Black women's political leadership and activism. That's just one essay that truly connects to the present in a powerful way.

Brian: Dr. Kendi, I wanted to ask you about another chapter that kind of relates to the one that Dr. Blain just brought up. I mentioned the chapter on the Black Family by Heather Andrea Williams 1649-1654. Many people might think of enslavement as of individuals, not families. Can you talk at all about that chapter or that idea?

Dr. Kendi: Well, when we read the words of enslaved people and when you learn about one of the things that made enslavement the most difficult-- It was a difficult experience. It was a tragic and violent experience, but then within those difficulties, within that violence, there was something at the top of the list. That was, in many ways the separation of families, which of course increased after the abolishing of the transatlantic slave trade or at least illegalizing of it, but even you having to watch your child be punished and you can't protect your child.

I think it was important for us in this text, and I'm so glad that Professor Williams was able to do it so early to really speak to the role of family and really to the terror in many ways that family members faced during enslavement.

Brian: Listeners, we have this wonderful opportunity of having Dr. Keisha N. Blain and Dr. Ibram X. Kendi with us today on the occasion of the publication of their new book Four Hundred Souls: A community History of African America 1619-2019. We can take a few questions for them from you at 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280 or you can tweet a question @BrianLehrer.

Dr. Blain, continuing to go through a few of these five-year chapters, we do, of course, get taught about the Civil War, but Jamelle Bouie's take revolves around Black troops who fought in the Civil War. I think Civil War history focuses so much on a white brother from the north who fought white brother from the south and things like that. Can you talk about the Civil War chapter in the book?

Dr. Blain: Yes. This chapter is so important. Of course, when we were putting together this project, we knew we needed to identify a very strong writer. Of course, everyone here is a brilliant writer, but we were thinking carefully about who we would ask to write this essay on the Civil War given its significance and prominence in a larger history. Jamelle Bouie does a remarkable job of centering the role of Black troops and even more specifically, I think, one of the things that I love about the piece is that he gives us a glimpse of the various strategies and the various ways that Black people ultimately secured their freedom.

Here, it's clear that this is a story about Black agency. It's not simply about, yes, we understand all of the external forces, we understand, the role of the federal government, but in this essay it's a story about the civil war from the ground up. It's about Black people seizing their freedom, deciding that enough is enough and being willing to take up arms to ensure their liberty.

Brian: Jamelle Bouie, by the way, may be the best newspaper columnist ever, in terms of integrating history into his writing about current events, just giving him that shout out, because he's so amazing in that way. Dr. Kendi, how about Herd Boyd's chapter The revolt in New York, 1709-1714. I went to public school here in New York and that didn't get taught.

Dr. Kendi: It didn't and it also didn't get taught just how many enslaved Black people there were in New York, in the early 1700s, even more than in some of the Southern colonies. Of course, some of those enslaved people, gathered together and Herb was able to really speak to this critical early revolt. It was one of the first, if not the first major slaver votes by Black people, principally in colonial America. Of course it happened in New York and I think it speaks to his larger work is really showing this longstanding Black resistance, which is invariably came as a result of white racism as he writes in the section.

Brian: Dr. Blain, the book framed us 400 years, ends in 2019 with Black Lives Matter. Co-founder Alicia Garza on 2014-2019, but then came 2020 and the savage structural racism in our society revealed to more people by the disparities of outcomes in the pandemic and the most contemporary expression of the racial justice movement, of course, after the police killing of George Floyd and then January 6, 2021 with the insurrection rooted so much in white supremacy, did you extend the narrative in any way, or do you see the book as informing our understanding of today in a way that maybe you didn't even think about when you were putting it together?

Dr. Blain: We did extend the narrative because in fact, the conclusion that appears in Four Hundred Souls, which I wrote is an updated version because I had initially written one version of the conclusion and as you know so many things took place, so I needed to go back, I needed to revise it. To specifically reflect on as you point out the ongoing challenges of COVID-19, to reflect on the uprisings and the continued struggle to end police violence and brutality and just a range of issues which came up in 2020.

I finished that conclusion around October, 2020, which really gave me the opportunity to weave the narrative together and bring it to the present as much as possible and to really end on a note of saying, here's everything we accomplished as Black people in the United States, but here are the challenges that remain and to remind readers that the struggle continues.

Brian: I wanted to ask you about your conclusion at the end of the book called My Ancestor's Wildest Dreams. Can you talk about that phrase and you write in that context about your great-grandmother. Can you make this a little personal by how her legacy and the legacy of that phrase, My Ancestor's Wildest Dreams inform your approach to history.

Dr. Blain: This is a very popular phrase, and of course we use it to make a case that we have made significant progress, we've accomplished a lot. I think part of what I needed to do with this phrase was think about whether or not I was truly my ancestor's wildest dreams. I started thinking about my great-great-grandparents and then specifically my great grandmother Felicity, who's from Grenada in the Caribbean.

I started to imagine, what did she desire? What would she desire for me? I think it was a moment where I had to just be honest and say, "Yes, it's wonderful I've been able to obtain education. I've been able to do a lot of things. I'm grateful for those things," but I think that what she would have wanted for me was to ensure that I had full freedom and that meant being able to live my life to the fullest extent, to not have to worry about being in certain spaces because of the color of my skin and how, for example, an encounter with the police could ultimately cost me my life.

I just started to reflect on what it means to have progress, but also to be in a moment where, collectively, I think as Black people, we're still dealing with so many challenges that yes, we can say, "Fine, I'm my ancestor's wildest dreams because we've obtained an education or done something remarkable. If we think about it, even in the collective sense, I'm not so sure that we truly are their wildest dreams because I think we still are in a place in this country where we're not viewed as full citizens. I think we're still struggling for full respect and recognition. and through that lens, I think that we have to be honest that yes, we've made progress, but unfortunately there is still much work.

Brian: We have a few minutes left here on the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC with historians, Ibram X Kendi, and Keisha N. Blain with their remarkable new book that tells African-American history five years at a time, 80 different writers contributing five-year chunks equals 400 years and the title of the book Four Hundred Souls: A Community History of African America, 1619 to 2019. Let's take phone calls, Sleeves in Washington, DC, you're on WNYC. Thanks so much for calling in.

Sleeves: Hey, everybody, thanks for taking my call and thanks for the really interesting discussion so far. I can't wait to read the book. My question is, so most of my friends say that the existence of systemic racism or to use Kendi's formulations, racist policies is obvious, but a few, a handful say that while it's obvious that there are racist individuals saying and doing racist things, it's equally obvious that racist policies are a thing of the past.

For people who are persuaded by logic and hard facts, what are a few concrete arguments fact by fact, facts that I can find and share that I could use to make the strongest case to those skeptics that systemic racism or racist power is a real thing.

Brian: Dr. Kendi, I guess that's for you.

Dr. Kendi: Sure. I guess it would determine what racial disparities you're arguing over or disputing, but let's say if you ask them, for instance, white American, median wealth in this country is 10 times the Black median wealth, and you ask them why is that the case? If they make a case that it's because Black people are not saving as much as white people, you can show them the studies and you can probably Google this, that demonstrate when you control for income, actually Black and white folks save at equal rates.

I think that there's also studies that show that it's not because Black people are more financially illiterate, or that we need financial literacy programs. I think to really get them to think about that, or if you want to take COVID-19, many people believed that Black people were dying at twice the rate of white people because Black people, somehow we're not socially distancing. We're not wearing masks. When a recent study found that 60 about two thirds of Black people are wearing masks compared to 46% of white folks, but we're still dying at twice the rate. Why?

A study has found it's because Black people are less able to work from home. Black people are more likely to live in polluted neighborhoods. Black people are less able to have health insurance. They're also more likely to live in what's called trauma deserts, where they don't have access to high quality care.

Then you really open the discussion to ask, why is it that Black people are more likely to live in trauma deserts in polluted neighborhoods, less likely able to work from home. Then when they say it's because there's something wrong with Black people, you can actually bring data that shows that's not the case. It forces them to start to think about the policy structure that exists in our society.

Brian: Are you now further armed, Sleeves?

Sleeves: Absolutely. That was really helpful. Thank you very much.

Brian: Thank you very much. Janet, in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Janet.

Janet: Good morning. I'd like to ask the question. In your book, were you able to compare Africa in 1619 to what happened to Africans when they arrived in America, then why they chose us, because I think that when, I always say that Africa in 1619 in many ways was not so different from Europe in 1619 and that we had the skills that they needed to work in the Americas in 1619. Thank you.

Brian: Thank you. Dr. Blain, you want to take that one?

Dr. Blain: Yes. We actually do cover this. In fact, the second essay in the book is entitled Africa and it's written by the remarkable scholar, Molefi Asante. We wanted to make sure that we had this essay in the book because exactly as you point out, we wanted to demonstrate to readers that it is quite impossible really, to talk about the history of Black America without thinking deeply about the African continent. We know this as an obvious observation, but at the same time, we wanted to make sure that we had a writer really pulling through these threads and drawing the comparisons as you point out.

Of course this is not the only piece that grapples with Africa, directly. We also have an essay in the book which talks about African identity. As you move forward in time, in the third part of the book, there's an essay by Walter Rucker, a historian, Emory University, who writes about African identities in order to capture change over time. He looks at 1729-1734. If you read his essay, in conversation with Molefi Asante's essay, which covers 1624-'29, we were able to see how, certainly ideas about Africa remain salient and how they continue to shape Black life and culture, and you do see the links and connections as you point out. We hope that you will take a look at the book and read those critical essays.

Brian: We have time for one more phone call. Julia in Morningside Heights, you're on WNYC with Ibram X. Kendi and Keisha N. Blain. Hi.

Julia: Hi, thanks for taking my call. My question is about genre and practice. I'm interested to know how you settled on this genre and the form and format. There's obviously a really long history of these massive humanistic literary undertakings from Dubois to [unintelligible 00:23:02] to Harold Cruse. I'm wondering what you took from them, how you [unintelligible 00:23:09] from them, what you amended, yes.

Brian: Big question. Dr. Kendi?

Dr. Kendi: Sure. Yes, I mean, there certainly has been pretty significant anthologies that have been written in the past and typically those anthologies were thematic so they were around a particular issue where they were asking writers to grapple with a specific issue. I think, and there's a tradition of that. I think where this book was distinct in that, was that we were asking 80 writers to specifically write on five years and the way in which they wrote their pieces were different.

In other words, we not only had historians, professor Blain mentored a philosopher, we had lawyers, we have had novelists, we've had journalists and so people were approaching their pieces from the center of their specific, genre of writing which I think made for a fascinating read, but then they were all relatively consistent. We were sure to basically blend them and braid them together,= so that for the reader, each of these pieces are strikingly independent while also cohesive, telling this single story of African-Americans history.

Brian: Which is a remarkable accomplishment because history five years at a time can make history look like a series of disconnected events, which is sometimes how history gets taught, I think. This happened, then this happened and sometimes in school, the larger narrative gets lost. Even though you're taking five-year bites, you did it with a larger narrative in mind.

Dr. Kendi: Exactly. I think that was the point. If I could just add the reason for that is because we were too often history, is written by one person and too often one person is trying to write the history of a community and within American history and certainly African American history, that single person has oftentimes been a single man. We wanted to bring together a community that's disproportionately women, but it's really reflective of the community that they're writing about. Even the identities, the backgrounds of the Black writers are different, which we also were keen to ensure.

Brian: Dr. Blain, last question, I want to give you a chance to talk about the poetry in the book. 10 poets, each contributing one poem at the end of each 40 year section. Why poetry? What do you hope the effect of that will be? Would you describe or even read, I don't want you to put you on the spot or recite if you want to one of the poems or just described one?

Dr. Blain: Well, it certainly was important for us at the very beginning to make sure that poets were included. We were hoping that the work would reach a broad readership and we understand that some people are going to connect more with the historical essays, others will connect more with the more personal narratives. Still there are others who would truly be captivated by the poetry. Part of what the poem does is, it provides a break for the reader.

It's intentionally placed in between sections, because you're going through some very difficult at times themes and you're grappling with a lot of heavy stuff. You go through several essays and you get to the end and what the poem does, it allows you to reflect on everything you've just read and it pulls all of them together. It's intentional because the poets, read those essays as they were crafting their own poems for the project.

It was a way to unify, it was a way to pull all the pieces together and it was a way to, I think, center the reader. I'm not a poet myself and I won't pretend to be one and I won't attempt to recite a poem, but I will simply just point out, Jericho Brown. He contributed a great poem, called Upon Arrival, which of course is the poem that ends the section, the first section of the book. As you read that poem, you're able to see just the journey, right from 1619 through 1659, which is where that section ends.

Brian: The book is called Four Hundred Souls, a community history of African America, 1619-2019. I want to give you a heads up listeners about a couple of virtual book events that they'll be doing, one is on Friday with the national civil rights museum, another is on next Tuesday with the Schomburg Center from here in New York and all the information and links for registration is under events at Dr. Kendi's website, ibramxkendi.com, ibramxkendi.com. Click on events if you want to attend some of those virtual book events that are coming up. Dr. Kendi, Dr. Blain, such an honor and this has been amazing. Thank you so, so much.

Dr. Blain: Thank you.

Dr. Kendi: Yes, thank you, Brian.

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