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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. What is gender? What is femininity really? What is masculinity? For many people, straight people or any kind of LGBTQ+ people, questions about gender identity begin at a young age. It's not something that's easily discussed when you're young, right? Except when it is. Floridas don't say gay law precludes open discussion of gender identity, but it doesn't preclude their teachers from labeling them as boys and girls. What does that mean? What are those little kids thinking about who they are?

Not just what kind of bodies they were born with, but who they are, who that means they are as people when they keep getting divided up that way? Some people struggle with understanding their gender and sexuality throughout their lives. Now comes a creative and unique book that takes that on for all of us. It's called Fine: A Comic About Gender. Yes, it's in comic book or graphic nonfiction, if you prefer, form. Author, Rhea Ewing, whose pronouns are they/them, navigates their own gender identity and gender dysmorphia while speaking with other queer people who have similar experiences.

The comic book is a collection of stories of the people who are sometimes referred to as invisible and is an important narrative in a time when anti-trans and queer legislation is currently sweeping through the country. You can't say gay to little kids in Florida, out of a concern for parental rights, supposedly, but parents who are enabling their trans youth in Texas to get gender-affirming care are being labeled as child abusers. How does that make sense? Governor DeSantis in Florida signed that bill. The court struck down the child abuse trans bill in Texas, but obviously, these things are spreading.

Joining me now to discuss their book is Rhea Ewing, author of Fine: A Comic About Gender, a story rooted in community, self-acceptance, and love. Rhea, thanks so much for joining. Welcome to WNYC.

Rhea Ewing: Aww, thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here.

Brian Lehrer: Tell us about the title, Fine. Who or what is fine?

Rhea Ewing: I chose the title because fine is a beautiful short word that can mean many, many different things, depending upon the context. If you ask someone how they're doing and they say, "Huh, I'm fine," maybe there's some more stuff going on under there. If you ask someone, "Hey, what do you think of that cutie pie over there?" "Oh, they're fine," or looking into a fine level of detail. I liked that similar to all of the different nuances and variations that people who I spoke to had with relation to their gender identity, that fine, as a word, can encapsulate all of those things.

I also felt like a lot of people were just fine with their gender, however you want to interpret that.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, just so I'm saying your name right, I know you're they/them, I'm he/him, but I don't know whether you're Ria or Rhea.

Rhea Ewing: I'm Rhea. Apologies to all of the people out there with the same spelling who go by Ria. We're just all out here confusing everyone.

Brian Lehrer: All right, Rhea Ewing. Fine covers a lot of ground. I want to get into some of the visuals with you and why you decided to do this in comic form, but you asked what femininity is. You discuss children who are told not to play with dolls, and your own experience of being told, "Girls aren't allowed." You interviewed so many people over a 10-year period, did you come up with any real meaningful threads about what people mean by femininity and masculinity at this point?

Rhea Ewing: It depends upon if you're looking for a concrete, like, this is what is feminine and this is what is masculine, I, unfortunately, cannot give that to you, but what I did come to is that these are fluid labels that can cover a lot of ground. For example, there were women, who I interviewed who just didn't make it into the book, but who were martial artists, and who identified their physical strength as being very deeply connected to their femininity. There were masculine folks who I interviewed who, their experiences as fathers and having that really nurturing role was super important to them.

There's a lot of overlap in terms of people, what experiences and traits they were identifying in themselves as masculine or feminine. A lot of it seemed to come from which perspective or lens that they wanted to view things from.

Brian Lehrer: I guess, by that description, the words femininity and masculinity wouldn't mean anything because if we just say nurturing is a positive human trait, strength is a positive human strength, that doesn't have anything to do with being a woman or being a man, or anywhere under the gender spectrum.

Rhea Ewing: Yes, I agree with you there for sure. For me personally, part of why I wanted to do this book is that I don't have a innate pull toward seeing myself as a woman or seeing myself as a man. I was really, really hoping that by doing all of these interviews I would get to a really fine point of, "Okay, I have all of these qualities, that makes me masculine or that makes me feminine. This is how I can navigate our society." Unfortunately, I did not get that. Instead, what I got was a highly contextual set of roles, traits, and expectations that people had and applied across gender.

For example, in some geographic areas, being masculine or feminine was really important, even within pockets of the queer community. That involved fulfilling specific social roles. For example, it would be maybe important for a femme lesbian to be nurturing towards her more masculine partner. However, you go the next state over or even drive a few hours away, and then that's no longer the case.

Brian Lehrer: It's so interesting. It's so contextual, it's so socially constructed.

Rhea Ewing: Exactly. At first, I found that incredibly frustrating. I poured in all of this work and all of these miles on my car and hours into interviews, and then realizing, "Wait a second, you mean I can't just boil it down and say, "Here is the essential quality of masculinity or femininity?" I really wanted that, but it was also very freeing to discover that what instead I had was a network of connections with other people and ways in which that I could accept and explore being myself without feeling like I needed to be able to prove myself in any particular way.

Yes, it was frustrating that I wasn't able to say, "Hey, this is who I am. I know I'm masculine because of X, Y, and Z," but it was also very freeing to say, "Oh, I can be however I am. The fact that I don't feel that tied to any particular gender, that's just how it is. I don't necessarily have to be able to show something to prove that."

Brian Lehrer: Let's try something on the phones. I wonder if we can get a few phone calls from people who consider yourselves non-binary, and just describe what part of you do you see as feminine and what part of you do you see as masculine, contributing to Rhea Ewing's ongoing research.

Rhea Ewing: I'm excited.

Brian Lehrer: Though her book, Fine: A Comic About Gender, is already out. 212-433-WNYC. Non-binary people listening right now, what does that mean to you in terms of masculinity and femininity? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer. I wonder if we'll get any calls like that. In the meantime, Rhea, your book, just to let people know more about it, is the collection of 10 years of research and interviews. It began as a little zine you were writing for a summer project.

What made you decide to turn what might have been, I don't know, a 24-page self-published zine into a full-length book drawing from interviews with 56 people and in comic book form no less?

Rhea Ewing: Right. The shortest answer is that when I started the zine, like I was talking about earlier, I had hoped to land on this very solid definition of gender, masculinity-femininity, so that I would be able to very clearly and precisely define myself. After interviewing about a dozen people who I knew and friends of friends over that first summer that I started the project, I didn't have answers. I just had more questions, and I realized that, because there was this contextual element, there were naturally a lot of perspectives that I was missing just because of the limits of my own social circle and geography.

I realized, "Okay, probably it would be good to talk to some more trans activists," or, "I haven't spoken to enough trans feminine people," or "The racial diversity of my makeup, isn't really going well ." Every year I told myself, "Next year, I'm going to publish this and I'm going to have it ready." I think you do that for a decade and it can be a little disheartening, but I am so, so glad that the book took as long as it did because I think that that enabled me to find where the connecting threads were since I didn't land on, "Here's a nice, easy definition of gender."

It allowed me to find the connecting threads of the narrative and also to embrace and enjoy the messiness and the beautiful variety of people's experiences with gender. That of course includes transgender folks and also cisgender folks as well because, like you were saying earlier, we all have gender experiences, and we all grapple with it in different ways.

Brian Lehrer: You said you did this in part to learn about yourself. What did you learn about yourself?

Rhea Ewing: What I learned about myself is that the reason why I couldn't really get comfortable in any particular gender identity is just that the thing that a lot of people have in themselves of, "What I am doing is masculine or feminine," comes from an inherent identity or a sense of resonance with that. I don't really have that, and that's okay. The other thing that I learned is that I don't need to display myself in a, "Here's a neat narrative, and here are the exact thing." I don't need to point to, "Oh, here's the genes, the specific genes in my DNA that make me non-binary, and now, no one can question me."

I can't do that, and that's okay. I don't know if I would want to do that if I could because human experience is so much more varied, and so much more contextual and cultural. I also want to be clear that when we're talking about gender as a social construct, some people can find that really frustrating because then it sounds very wishy-washy. Like, what does that mean? It's also very exciting because it means that we can define gender and discuss it in ways that are actively opening and inviting to all people and to all experiences. That, I found very empowering, and that's important to me.

The biggest thing that I learned to myself with this project is that people are important to me and people matter and that the more vulnerable someone is, the more we work to protect them, the better off we all are. Gender is a social construct. We can operate within that construct and build it in a way that embraces everyone.

Brian Lehrer: It's beautiful. It's both community and individual. Nicely said. Rhea, we have a full board of calls, so let's hear what some people have to say. Mark Ella in Connecticut, you're on WNYC with Rhea Ewing, author of Fine: A Comic About Gender. Hello, Mark Ella.

Mark Ella: Hi. Long-time listener, first-time caller. I'm so excited to be here to ask my question. Thank you so much.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you so much, which is what?

Mark Ella: I am a non-binary person, and I have a love-hate relationship with the word non-binary because I'm frustrated because it describes me by what I'm not rather than what I am, but I haven't found a better word for it, for what I am. I'm wondering if you could give some examples, from your research, of people who describe that in-between gender zone in a positive way, saying what they are instead of non-binary.

Brian Lehrer: Great question. We're so wonky on this show that people who call in have non-binary relationships with the word non-binary. Rhea, do you have a positive, not negative definition for what non-binary is supposed to communicate?

Rhea Ewing: Yes, there's a lot. First of all, I just want to say that I 100% relate to this, I think there's even a point in the book where I call myself out a little bit, that all of the words that I wind up using to describe myself are more about what I'm not rather than what I am. I'm in a place where that works for me, and that actually feels pretty good, but not everybody feels that way. Some other people who I interviewed, and also who I've just spoken to on a less formal basis, like words like genderqueer. The word queer doesn't work for everybody, but for some people, including myself, that can be a good and empowering label.

Some people will use words like demi boy or demi girl if they're leaning towards a more masculine or feminine direction. The word gender outlaw is probably worth checking out if you're not familiar with that one. That does still have that outsider status, but I like that that embraces the outsider status as containing a lot of possibilities. Other words-- One of my favorite interviews was with a person named Kai. I first drew them surrounded by all of these different labels that they had tried on, and they include things like Monster and David Bowie.

Really you can be pretty bespoke with what you call yourself. The other thing is, language around gender identity has shifted just in the 10 years from start to finish for this project of my book. New words are emerging all of the time, and who knows, you might be the person who invents the words that a bunch of other people glom onto and are like, "Oh wait, that's me." Maybe I'll be one of those people. I don't know. I hope that helps.

Brian Lehrer: Mark Ella, are any of those resonating with you?

Mark Ella: It's very encouraging, the thought of just being able to come up with a totally new thing, so, thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Come up with that new thing, and then call us back on another day and start to spread the meme. Okay?

Rhea Ewing: Yes, please.

Mark Ella: Will do.

Brian Lehrer: Mark Ella, thank you very much. Let's go next to Jude, who my screener says refers to themselves as they/them, in Brooklyn. Jude, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Jude: Hi, Brian. I'm a huge fan. I've only called once before. I think it was also for something gay. Thanks for having me again.

Brian Lehrer: Sure.

Jude: It's similar to the last caller. I bristle at the non-binary word, just because I think it's just become the most popular term for people like us, I guess. I identify as sort of under the trans umbrella closer to a transmasculine person who doesn't want to take hormones. For some reason, non-binary just became the word. I think your guest mentioned these terms have only been evolving for the last 10 years or so. There was a time when gender non-conforming was being used. Then somewhere along the lines, non-binary just became the word that cis people understood the most.

The fact that I use they/them pronouns just makes people assume that I'm non-binary or identify as non-binary. My question would be about just the evolution of the term and why did non-binary become the term? Then also, I'm right about film and TV, and second question would be if you've noticed at all that the assigned female at birth, white, thin, non-binary person has become the poster child for non-binary identity in film and TV. We've got Asia Kate Dillon on Billions, and few other folks. Then the AMAB non-binary people, I guess because trans women have been more visible for some reason, you don't really see AMAB non-binary people that much.

Even all the callers, as you can maybe hear from our voices, are mostly AFAB. I'm curious if your research ever talked about that and the less representation for AMAB non-binary people.

Brian Lehrer: For people who don't know AFAB, that's assigned female at birth. Rhea, another set of really interesting questions from Jude.

Rhea Ewing: Yes, I really appreciate both of these. I'm not 100% certain why non-binary specifically caught on, but I do think that the way that we use non-binary in the trans community and specifically for folks like us who are not necessarily identifying strongly with one gender, that is, with masculinity or femininity, but I think that the way that non-binary has been used by the larger culture, makes a lot of sense thinking about how our culture currently constructs and deals with gender.

When I first heard the term non-binary, it was in the trans community and being used as a pretty broad umbrella term similar to how transgender can be used as a very broad umbrella term to cover a whole swath of different experiences. It wasn't necessarily, "Here's a specific identity, non-binary." It was more, "Oh," and then here's a bunch of identities that don't really fit into this binary assumption of gender. They're non-binary identities, but it was like the difference between a bird versus a sparrow. I feel like in our larger culture, now it's seen as this third gender of, "Ah, yes, you have man, woman, and non-binary."

Non-binary is its own distinct category with these characteristics. You're absolutely right, characteristics that have now been associated with whiteness, with being assigned female at birth, with a certain masculine appearance with all of that as well, I think that that is frustrating to me because what I want is for an understanding of non-binary that is truly expansive and invites a playful challenge to the rigidity that we can bring to gender sometimes.

Brian Lehrer: Jude, can I ask you if there's anything that you could put into words that is a more masculine aspect of yourself as you experience it and a more feminine aspect if you even use those words?

Jude: Interesting question, Brian. I'm a classic gender-nonconforming from childhood person. I'm basically a trans guy who doesn't want to transition. I've had top surgery, but I haven't taken hormones. I came out of the womb wishing I had been born a boy. I'm unique, I guess, but my point is that--

Brian Lehrer: Why? What's that boyness in you? Can I go there with you? What's that boyness in you, for people who don't get it? Because there's so many people who still don't get it.

Jude: Not to go back to the negative, but it was like it was more resisting. If my mom tried to put a dress on me, I threw huge tantrums, kicked my legs up in the air, wore a tuxedo to my sister's bar mitzvah. For me, it's about, I'm a very visual aesthetic person. It was style, and it was more a bristling against what was being put on me as what was expected of girls and femininity. Maybe there is that sort of overlay with feminism and why there are more AFAB non-binary people.

There are a lot of also very feminine presenting people who have started using they/them, which I have some thoughts about, but I understand why someone who doesn't like the expectations put on people who look like women would want to eschew that.

Brian Lehrer: Jude, thank you very much for your call. We really appreciate your thoughtfulness. How did you do that? They talk about style as part of the masculine-feminine thing for them. How much of that is represented in the visuals in your book since the book is Fine: A Comic About Gender? This is the radio so people can't see it, so, what's your visual approach? Maybe even an example to describe.

Rhea Ewing: Certainly. I love graphic novels and comics, whatever you want to call them, I'm not snooty about it, because you can get a lot of information through the combination of visuals and text. For example, if this was all pros, visually, I would want to describe what each participant looked like. Then the reader would be bringing their own assumptions in creating a picture in their head. With the graphic novel format, I can have a drawing without necessarily saying, in words, too many gender cues, and then the viewer is bringing those gender cues to the drawing.

I also like it-- For example, there's a page with a person who I interviewed, Dackery, where they're talking about being genderqueer and having this real flow between the way they express their gender. Gender expression here being through fashion, hair, the way you are actively presenting yourself to other people. In one panel, I show them in a vest and a buttoned-up shirt. Then the next panel, they're in this dress, and both of these things are joyful. The fact that I could have this moment just seamlessly go from one to the next with these different presentations, I love that I was able to do that in the comic format.

Brian Lehrer: That's great. One more call. Theo in Greenpoint, we've got about 60 seconds for you, then we're going to be out of time in the segment. Hi, Theo.

Theo: Hi, Brian. Thanks for having me. I just wanted to say, in regards to masculinity and femininity, I associate for myself femininity with authenticity and masculinity with safety. There's this great quote by Alexander Leon that says, "Queer people don't grow up as ourselves, we grow up playing a version of ourselves that sacrifices authenticity to minimize humiliation and prejudice. The massive task of our adult lives is to unpick which parts of ourselves are truly us and which parts we've created to protect us."

That really resonates with me when I'm thinking about that spectrum of masculinity and femininity, and how I need to adjust myself when I'm walking down the street in order to be safe versus how I want to present myself authentically in the world.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. Theo thank you so much.

Rhea Ewing: Beautifully said.

Brian Lehrer: Rhea, 30 seconds to react to Theo and anything else you-- See, now that I got used to calling you Rhea, I called them Theo.

[laughter]

Rhea Ewing: Yes.

Bian Lehrer: Last word.

Rhea Ewing: Theo, that was beautifully said. I think it brings up another point that we were not able to address in the segment, but that is important to acknowledge, which is that privilege and safety are critical in terms of where and how we express our gender and how our bodies are perceived. I also think that is another reason why non-binary folks tend to be shown as assigned female at birth and as white because there's the combination of non-threatening and privileged, which allows the increased safety for expression. Generally speaking, people who are perceived as women aren't seen as a threat for wearing pants.

Whereas, the other way around, you have the transmisogyny piece, which, I just want to acknowledge that. Listeners, if that's something that you're not familiar with, I invite you to research more about that and reflect on it and think about how the world can be safer for everybody.

Brian Lehrer: Rhea Ewing, author of Fine: A Comic About Gender, such a wonderful conversation with you and the listeners. Thank you so much.

Rhea Ewing: Thank you.

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