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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Among the pressures of the pandemic, there has been a spike in the amount of food insecurity in New York City and lots of other places. We've done segments here on shortages and long lines at food pantries, some of you have heard those, and other food dispensing facilities since 2020 as a result of pandemic unemployment and other forces. Now there's a report from the Food Policy Center at Hunter College and the Columbia University Teachers College that tries to draw some big picture lessons from what happened and how it was handled for a more secure food and nutrition future for all, post-pandemic.

With us now are Sara Abiola, Executive Director, and Pamela Koch, Faculty Director of the Tisch Food Center at the Teachers College of Columbia University. Abiola is also a professor in the Department of Health and Behavior Studies. Pamela Koch is also a nutrition education professor. They both led the study just published called NY Food 2025. Professor Koch, Professor Abiola, thanks so much for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Sara Abiola: Thank you for having us. It's good to be here.

Pamela Koch: Yes, thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Since you're both leaders in this, I'm going to leave it up to you as to who answers which question as we talk here. Could we start with the basic definition of the term food insecurity? Is it different from hunger or starvation or actually not having enough to eat on a given day? I think a lot of people who don't experience it hear the term and they think, "Oh, I don't know, that's some academic frame or something like that." What does the term food insecurity really mean?

Sara Abiola: That's a really important question, Brian. I think that it's a question that can end up becoming an entire conversation in and of itself. I think what I'll do is just share some of the ways in which the USDA has defined food insecurity and differentiate that from things like hunger, for example, which I think are also relevant in this conversation, but not quite the same thing.

Brian Lehrer: Right, the USDA is the US Department of Agriculture. This is under their wing. Go ahead.

Sara Abiola: Absolutely correct. When it comes to food security, it tends to exist on a spectrum. Ultimately, it's about whether or not a person or a household has access at all times to enough food for an active or healthy lifestyle. You could have very high food security, you could have marginal food security, you could have low food security, or you could have very low food security. We tend to think of low or very low food security as being food insecure. In essence, a household has limited or uncertain access to adequate food, they have the limited or uncertain ability to acquire acceptable foods in socially acceptable ways.

The key definition, key characteristic has to do with the frequency with which people aren't able to access the food that they need, and they're required to change their eating habits because the household lacks the money or other resources to secure food. This is a situation that people can experience in different ways. It can be something that's short-term or long-term. It is distinct from hunger and the way that we think about it currently, because we tend to think of hunger as an individual level condition that can be the consequence of prolonged involuntary lack of food, certainly can be related to food insecurity, but it's distinct.

Currently, the ability to measure hunger is something that goes a bit beyond what we've been able to capture with the current surveys that are used by the USDA, for example. It's a complex topic, but in essence, food insecurity is something that has to do with limited or uncertain access to adequate food. We can get into a conversation about how we can expand that definition. I hope we will get to that point during today's chat.

Brian Lehrer: Okay, thank you, Professor Abiola. Professor Koch, go ahead. Did you want to add something?

Pamela Koch: Sure. Just that really recently, the United States Secretary of Agriculture, Tom Vilsack, actually announced nutrition security, which actually goes beyond everything that Sara just said about food security to really understand that we want people to be able to have diets that actually can help them to decrease risk of diet related diseases, as well [inaudible 00:04:55] diet related disparities that really exist in our country.

Brian Lehrer: That was a very interesting part of your report, which we'll get to as well. It's not just the amount of food, it's the quality of food that's available to people. I see your stat from outgoing Mayor de Blasio's office from December, that 1.4 million New Yorkers were food insecure, with a high of 17% of everyone in the Bronx to a low of around 9% in Queens and Staten Island. How different would those numbers have been just before the pandemic and at the height of the pandemic, whenever you would define that to be? In other words, was there a big spike?

Pamela Koch: You know what? The best number that we have from before the pandemic was 1.2 million. During the height of the worst time of the pandemic in New York City, during the latter part of 2020, it was actually really hard to get really good numbers on it because so much was changing so quickly. What we do know and was in our first report that we put out together as well as in this more recent report, is that because of the really massive response from both government, as well as from philanthropic organizations, the amount of food insecurity that New York could have experienced with such dramatic change really quickly, was actually diminished because of that great government response.

I think we want to acknowledge all of the great work that was done when people were losing jobs so quickly and so uncertain about even leaving their homes, that there were so many programs that brought food to people or had easy pickups in people's communities, such as at schools that that decreased what we could have potentially experienced.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, that's such a great point because there was a city and state response to the pandemic food crisis. People may remember, Mayor de Blasio appointed Kathryn Garcia, who later went on to run for mayor herself and is now a top aide to Governor Hochul, Kathryn Garcia as the food czar, and she was on this program as well as elsewhere, of course. You document the existing programs that they expanded like food pantries and the new ones that they launched that were new like the Grab and Go Meals program based at school buildings, close remote learning, and an emergency food home delivery program. There were state and federal programs as well.

You're telling me those worked. Were there specific groups of people, however, who were most left behind? Were undocumented immigrants left behind structurally as with some assistance programs or anyone else you can identify as less well-served by the efforts even when this emergency mobilization ramped up that we can learn from for the future?

Sara Abiola: Sure, absolutely. I think it's definitely important to acknowledge just how comprehensive and thorough the response was, but there were certainly groups that were left out. We know from a recent EpiData [unintelligible 00:08:00] this was released in November of 2021, that emergency food use actually decreased among New Yorkers overall by March of 2021. This was about a year into the pandemic but there are certain groups, African American New Yorkers, older adults, people [unintelligible 00:08:16] poverty neighborhoods, people who are unemployed, people who are not in the labor force, where we still see elevated use of emergency food services, which would indicate they're in that kind of range of low or very low food security. We do need to think about what that means in terms of addressing the populations that are still trying to essentially recover to a point that a lot of New Yorkers have gotten to when it comes to being able to acquire food independent of emergency services.

Brian Lehrer: You have identified some best practices according to your report to learn from for the future. One of them is high levels of engagement in food programs when it's not a crisis. What does high levels of engagement refer to and by whom?

Pamela Koch: I'll start with that. I think one of the things that may be even a little bit bigger than your question, Brian, is that what happened with the pandemic was exacerbating food insecurity problems, as well as diet-related disease problems that existed before the pandemic. We also learned from the pandemic that not only do the chronic diseases such as type two diabetes and heart disease that are attributed at least in part to diet have disparities and also increased healthcare costs. Those were also the people who were having the most challenging outcomes to an infectious disease like COVID-19.

High level of engagement means we have to keep thinking about food, making sure we have food security, going back to what Dr. Abiola said, is making sure that it's not just enough food, but high quality food, enough fresh fruits and vegetables, other plant-based food, decreasing access to, as well as promotion of, ultra-processed foods. We need to keep that level of engagement going, through the mayor's office, through the office of food policy, through everyone all the time, so that we can get to a place where when the next emergency happens, one, we can have more good access to food for everyone and make sure no one is left behind, and second, make sure everyone is eating well enough to have their bodies be in the best possible state to not get longer-term chronic diseases, as well as to be able to fight infectious diseases.

Brian Lehrer: We're going to get into that in a little more detail, that food quality which has come up twice now. I want to save that until a couple of minutes from now because I want to take a phone call first from somebody who was involved in the emergency food efforts during the height of the pandemic, they say, and stay on that part of it for the moment. Hi [unintelligible 00:11:05] WNYC. Thank you for calling in. Who's this?

Caleb: Hey, Brian, this is Caleb, longtime listener, first-time caller. I've listened to your show a lot while delivering food. It's a really good opportunity. I had a really fantastic opportunity to deliver food. A lot of people were using that free food emergency food delivery program in New York City and I was a restaurant worker. It was a great opportunity to have a job, but I really wanted to point out the variety of people that I would visit, we'd be in public housing buildings and also delivering to elderly people in some of the nicest parts of the city. Interacting with that program was really enlightening, not only to see the pandemic firsthand among all those people and different types of people, but it was a really fantastic way to bring food to their doors. It was nine meals in one little box that they could use throughout the week. That was just my first [unintelligible 00:12:01]

Brian Lehrer: Nine meals at one time. What was the context of your participation, Caleb? Were you with a mutual aid group or something else?

Caleb: Yes, it was actually with a catering company that I got hooked up with. They had lost all of their events work, obviously, and they received a grant through the city to hire their full staff and then additional people as needed. I actually drove my personal car. I had an emergency vehicle registration on my dash that I could park anywhere and be able to run in and out of houses. The catering company put their army to work during that time. This is about the fall in August, September of 2020.

Brian Lehrer: Thanks for your work on that and thanks for your call today. Listeners, anyone else, did you use any food assistance program at any time during the pandemic? Tell us your story to show your appreciation or to say how well the program seemed to work or how it could be improved. 212 433 WNYC, 212 433 9692, or did you, like our caller Caleb there, work with a group to help provide food? How did that go? What can be improved? What can we learn for the future, which is the point of the report that my guests put out? 212 433 9692.

What lessons can the city or anyone else learn from your experience working with, or being served by one of the pandemic food programs and the most effective responses to insecurity generally, which our guests are trying to develop in their new report from the Columbia University Teachers College, where they work and in conjunction with Hunter College. 212 433 WNYC, 212 433 9692. Let's take another phone call right now. Here's Sophia in the Bronx. Hi, Sophia. You're on WNYC. Oh, let me try that again. Click. Now I actually put you on the air. I apologize. Hi, Sophia.

Sophia: Oh, hello. Good morning. I'm just so glad you guys are speaking about this because it's such a huge issue especially in the Bronx. I and a few other young people created an organization called Mission Helping Hand. We have been from the very beginning distributing food from the Christ Church on Forest Avenue till this day where we distribute food for over a thousand people every Saturday, and then I wanted to mention the fridges that are across the city have been extremely helpful to be able to give fresh produce from leftover pantries to give to people as well as, I work in the film industry, so there's a lot of leftover catering and leftover foods. We always make it a mission to give leftovers to these fridges because a lot of pantries have cut off the restrictions. I just wanted to mention that.

Brian Lehrer: Sophia, thank you so much. Those are two interesting calls that we've gotten so far, Professor Abiola and Professor Koch, right, from people who got involved as individuals. I know that I talked to some people on the air during the pandemic who said, "Our volunteers in "normal times" tend to be older people, but the older people were staying home during the pandemic for protection and most of our volunteers have been younger people and we've been so moved by the amount that young people, without a history of volunteering in many cases, did step up precisely to deliver food."

I don't know if you want to comment on that, or if you touch on that at all in your report, the role of individuals, not just structural processes or government agencies in having food meet eater.

Pamela Koch: I want to add on. First of all, I want to acknowledge that the City University of New York, Urban Food Policy Institute, which is at the school of public health, was also part of our report, just to acknowledge them as well, and maybe just to share a story, I think it goes back to that it was the combination of the government effort with philanthropic. I think just showing how those two work together, that there was government programs and then it was different organizations such as Caleb's organization that were delivering the food.

I live in Manhattan. We had a person in my building that we knew was not going to be able to get the food that she normally got when the pandemic started. At first, we started a rotation where those of us in the building were cooking food for her each day and bringing it to her and then once she was able to start getting the city's food, that took care of it, which just shows that these programs really worked for real people who desperately needed food each and every day.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take another call.

Sara Abiola: Absolutely--

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead, Professor Abiola, you can add to that thought.

Sara Abiola: No, I think what Dr. Koch is saying is so important, and I think that it's a testament to the resilience of New Yorkers, that people stepped up when they had to really protect members of the community who were in a vulnerable situation. I think we also have to tie this into the conversation that we have about making sure that the food options that come through our food assistance programs are culturally inclusive.

One of the things that Caleb mentioned was the diversity of the population that he was serving. We certainly want to make sure that as we continue to promote a high engagement with a federal and state food policy programs, that those programs are able to meet the needs of folks who either need, for example, halal or kosher options or other sources, specific dietary specifications, that will then allow them to actually overcome one of the significant barriers to using programs, which is the feeling that the food here is not going to really be something that I can incorporate into my existing diet.

I think we have a strong push to make sure that we can do that. It ties into what Sophia said as well, because oftentimes in order to cater to those preferences, you have to have the facilities to do so. One of the recommendations that we do put out there is to increase spending on infrastructure that would allow organizations to have the facilities that they need in order to store the right types of food at the right temperatures to promote safety and access to the populations that they're serving. Just one final note, we definitely want to push to having a more systemic approach to thinking about emergency food services, especially [unintelligible 00:18:57] the fact that we don't know if we're always going to be able to depend on members of the community to act in the way they did during the pandemic.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take another caller. This is Isaac in Bay Shore, on the island, calling in. Hi, Isaac. You're on WNYC.

Isaac: Hi, thanks for having me. I like to say, I don't hear nothing about this, but religious organization helped me. I'm 76 years old. I got food stamps, but it wasn't enough. I got 120 a month and I wasn't working. I ain't have no saving, nothing like that. My kids, my one daughter in Florida, my other son in Missouri. I ain't really had no help [unintelligible 00:19:44] right now. The thing about it, religious organization, I go to the Way of Life, Treasure God and Christ, and they gave me a lot of food. I don't hear nobody talking about how religion organizations-- I'm sure everybody appreciate their help, but the religious organizations [unintelligible 00:20:06]

Brian Lehrer: Isaac, thank you so much for your story, and please call us again. That was really informative. I'm glad you were able to be served in that way. Well, what about faith-based partnerships with government and other philanthropies, Professor Koch, Professor Abiola? So many food pantries and soup kitchens are based in churches and other religious facilities, right?

Pamela Koch: Yes, Isaac, thank you so much for your story, and that you were able to get that help. That's amazing. That is, I think, part of acknowledging what was happening before the pandemic as well as keeping this engaged as we move into whatever post-pandemic is. Religious organizations have traditionally played a very large role. All different religious organizations across the city as well as in other places as well have been places where, as you just said, Brian, food pantries are housed.

There are soup kitchens, there are, when people can eat together, community-based meals that not only allow people to get that good nourishment that they need, but also a sense of belonging and community and togetherness that, when we can do that, is so important. I think that that is part of why this is such a big systemic issue that it can't be only government, and it can't be only philanthropic or religious organizations. We need the best combinations of all of these working together. We got really wonderful examples of that through the work that was done during the pandemic.

Brian Lehrer: Isaac, if you're still there, I'm curious if, in your congregation, in your church, there are any sort of larger cultural changes that took place because of the emergency of the pandemic, maybe even some of the contact that other people had with you in the program you were describing. How's your church different today than it was before the start of the pandemic, if you have anything like that?

Isaac: Well, the pantry is still here. In fact, it's at five o'clock this evening. The main thing about it, during that time, you couldn't really go out. I got underlying things. I'm 76 years old. Birthday was last week.

Brian Lehrer: Happy birthday.

Isaac: A lot of churches weren't open. Like they say, young people had to help out a lot. It was people who even got COVID were doing it. People would come to the church [unintelligible 00:22:49] stuff like that. You were supposed to have the mask, but it's hard to turn a person away when they say they need something to eat or something like that. When COVID first started back in-- I think it was '20, when it really started [unintelligible 00:23:08] when I couldn't go to work. [unintelligible 00:23:15] happened. You had to [unintelligible 00:23:18] Yes?

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead, finish your thought. I'm sorry.

Isaac: You had to stay in, you couldn't go out. Like you said, how people helped, people that knew you would call and ask, "Have you been to the pantry? Did you eat?" I remember Thanksgiving came, and I had to get [unintelligible 00:23:38] stuff to eat. I had to go to the supermarket. I have my little food stamp, and I made me a meal. On my Facebook page, I got the meal that I made up for myself.

Brian Lehrer: That is cool. Isaac, thanks so much for your call. Happy birthday. April is a great month to have a birthday, I think, because the trees are blooming, the weather is getting warm. Be well, okay?

Isaac: Yes. [unintelligible 00:24:03]

Brian Lehrer: Call us again. Professor Abiola, Professor Koch, one of the things that Isaac said in the first part of his call is that he needed the help of food relief through his church even though he was getting food stamps. One of the things I see is in your report is that food stamps aren't enough to help some people, and the amount that food stamps provide is just the $1 benefit per month, needs to be raised in many cases. Can you talk about what is and what should be from your point of view?

Pamela Koch: One good thing is, and this was recently, in the fall of 2021, I believe, is that what [unintelligible 00:24:49] how much people get for food stamps, or what's now Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, SNAP, is what's called the Thrifty Food Plan. It had not been revised for decades and was called to be revised in the 2018 Farm Bill that is for all farm and food policy in the United States, so actually, SNAP, or Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, food stamp benefits have gone up.

It's meant to be supplemental, but many people are using it for, really, their sole source of how they're getting food, and it would not be enough, typically, to feed people, particularly to feed people well, to get back to that food quality issue. The more that we can advocate for that, the Farm Bill will be coming up again in 2023, and we need to keep pushing for making sure we're giving adequate resources for people to be able to eat well.

Sara Abiola: Absolutely.

Brian Lehrer: Last question, as we run out of time, the thing that we kept saying we were going to get to, and we're finally going to get to it, but at the end. One of the major categories in your report that I found really interesting is reducing the promotion and ubiquity of unhealthy food to reduce what you call the staggering burden of diet-related disease in New York City. Take our last two minutes or so to talk about how you would describe the staggering burden of diet-related disease in New York City, and what you propose to do about it.

[crosstalk]

Pamela Koch: Oh, go ahead.

Sara Abiola: [unintelligible 00:26:32] you want to take that?

Pamela Koch: Sure. I'll go quickly, and then I'll give you a little bit of time. At this point in time, our food supply, over 60% of it is what is called ultra-processed foods, which are foods that often have a lot of high added sugar as well as other ingredients that make them basically that saying that you can't eat just one. True. They are what are called hyper-palatable, which means, once we start eating them, we have a hard time stopping them because they click with our biology.

What we want to do is make sure that, at the same time as we are increasing access to plant-based, healthy foods like fruits, vegetables, whole grains, legumes, we are actually making the foods that people are eating too much of, because there's too much in the food supply, less available by having them have different placements in the store, by having better incentive programs or pricing structures to make the healthy foods healthier so that we are switching it and essentially, tweaking the environment to make it that it is really much easier for people to eat well instead of an environment that if you eat just what's out there, you are going to be at high risk of chronic diseases.

At this point in time, one in two adults either has pre-diabetes or diabetes, which is a very costly, in terms of quality of life and medical costs, disease.

Sara Abiola: Absolutely. In terms of concrete action, we should certainly look to support things like New York State's Predatory Marketing Prevention Act as a first step in the direction of really trying to make sure that it can reduce promotion in public facilities such as schools, public transit, parks, in front of housing developments. For those who are interested in this, it's important to become involved. It just speaks to the importance, I think, of Isaac's point overall, which is that the community has to take ownership and active role in making sure that the food system reflects the best that it can offer in terms of quality food and in terms of access to resources that are needed to promote and protect health.

Brian Lehrer: We thank Sara Abiola, Executive Director, and Pamela Koch, Faculty Director of the Tisch Food Center at the Teachers College of Columbia University. Sara Abiola is also a professor in the Department of Health and Behavior Studies, Pamela Koch is also a nutrition education professor, and they both led the study just published with CUNY and Hunter called NY Food 2025. Thank you so much for sharing it with us.

Pamela Koch: You're welcome.

Sara Abiola: Thank you. Goodbye.

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