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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. It's election season in America, early voting is underway and election day is next Tuesday. While not much is at stake compared to a presidential or congressional election year, or a New York City mayoral, or New Jersey gubernatorial election year, the contests that are taking place will help set the stage for those. We're going to talk about that later this hour with journalist Ben Max who has an article in New York Magazine.

Then later we're going to talk to Joan Walsh, a pretty frequent guest on the show from The Nation magazine, national affairs correspondent. She's got a new book. She's a co-author with Don Cohen who is also going to join us. Have a new book whose name we can't say on the radio. It's corporate bowl, something. They will be here later. At the end of the show today, we're going to invite calls because of a cute story we saw in the Washington Post, from those of you who have ever encountered another human being, or maybe a dog that has the same name as you. That's all coming up.

First, things are tense on many college campuses right now. Many of you know. It's been this way since the October 7th attack by Hamas. You've either been hearing about this in the news or experiencing it yourself in many places if you're a student or a faculty or a staff member. We're going to open the phones in a minute for your stories, feelings, observations. In fact, we'll open up the phones now. 212-433-WNYC. Call or text. Most notable to many is a spike in antisemitism, not just political opposition to the actions of the Israeli government.

A 21-year-old Cornell student for example, if you haven't heard this news yet, was arrested yesterday and charged with making online threats. The US Attorney's Office in Syracuse says it "alleges that the student posted threatening messages to the Cornell section of an online discussion site, including posts calling for the deaths of Jewish people and a post that said going to shoot up 104 West." According to information provided by Cornell University police and other public information, it says 104 West is a Cornell dining hall that caters predominantly to kosher diets and is located next to the Cornell Jewish Center.

In another post, says the US attorney, "The student allegedly threatened to stab and slit the throat of any Jewish males he sees on campus, to rape and throw off a cliff any Jewish females, and to behead any Jewish babies." That from the US Attorney's Office in Syracuse after that 21-year-old engineering student was arrested and charged. Also at Cornell political reports, a professor called the Hamas attacks, exhilarating and energizing. POLITICO also reports the top donors at the University of Pennsylvania have pulled their financial support over charges that the institution doesn't do enough to fight antisemitism on campus.

At Columbia, dueling groups of faculty members have now signed different group letters just in the last few days. As the Columbia student newspaper, The Spectator, described some of this, one letter was titled An Open Letter from Columbia University and Barnard College faculty in defense of robust debate about the history and meaning of the war in Israel/Gaza. That came after a so-called doxxing truck was deployed at Columbia listing the names and faces of students who had signed an October 9th statement that called for advocacy for Palestinian students.

The newer letter in response, condemned the previous faculty letter's attempts to "recontextualize Hamas as a salvo as the exercise of a right to resist occupation, or as military action." This newer letter says, "We are astonished that anyone at Columbia would try to legitimize an organization that shares none of the university's core values of democracy, human rights, or the rule of law. We ask the entire university community to condemn the Hamas attack unambiguously." All of that from the Columbia Spectator, dueling faculty letters with feelings of grievances and threats and doxxing that various groups felt that they needed to respond to.

It's not just Ivy League or Northeast colleges as you might sometimes get the impression that it is from some of the media. POLITICO reports that at Atlantic University in Florida, a march supporting Palestinians resulted in three arrests after a clash broke out between counter-protesters. It reports on pro-Palestinian students saying they too are being targeted, such as a student at the University of South Florida who said someone on X, the platform formerly known as Twitter, had referred to a pro-Palestinian rally there as" target practice."

The Washington Post reports on a pro-Palestinian rally near the campus of Tulane University in New Orleans that turned violent after what the paper called a melee between competing groups. We could go on and on. All of this tension leads to competing policy questions as well. Do campuses that have instituted speech codes in recent years to protect various groups of vulnerable or historically marginalized students from harassment that could affect their safety or their ability to succeed at school apply the same standard when it comes to antisemitism? Is there a single standard?

Where's the actual line between antisemitism and policy and moral debates over Israel and acceptable ways to resist? What's the responsibility of university leaders to take positions on these things that might leave one group of students or another, faculty too feeling disrespected or in danger? How much should donor pressure matter and how much does it and more?

With us to help describe what's happening on campus and help take your calls is Madina Touré who covers K-12 and higher education for POLITICO New York. She's written four articles on campus tensions since October 7th. Madina, thanks for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Madina Touré: Thank you for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, if you are connected to any college campus right now, as a student, or faculty, or staff member, you will get first priority on the phones and screeners heads up on that too. First priority to anybody connected to any campus currently, as a student or faculty or staff member, we invite you to call in or text us and describe what you're seeing and experiencing, and feeling at your school right now, and what you think the campus leadership is or should be doing. 212-433-WNYC is our phone number, 212-433-9692. You can also text a story, an observation, a feeling to that number, 212-433-9692.

Like with so many conversations about this situation since October 7th, I don't expect we'll solve anything in this segment, but help us report this story with your own observations, experiences, and feelings. 212-433-9692. Madina, your latest article was called Anti-Israel Protests on College Campuses Drive Calls for Increased Safety. Can you describe who's asking for what kind of safety protections?

Madina Touré: Yes. As you've pointed out, there has been a rise in antisemitism on college campuses. Recently, Islamophobia as well. Jewish students, Muslim, students have been reporting feeling unsafe on campus in the wake of the attack. There's a feeling that colleges, universities, politicians, need to do more to keep students safe. I think politicians are starting to put pressure on colleges to do more to take more action.

We saw that with Governor Hochul, who met with the Cornell students earlier this week, who rolled out a series of steps that she's looking to take to address antisemitism on campus. She's ordering a review of policies and procedures at CUNY with respect to addressing antisemitism. She's trying to get more money for more protections for houses of worship. There is this pressure increasingly for universities to address the safety concerns that many Jewish students are saying is they're feeling more and more unsafe, and Muslim students are also reporting the same.

Brian Lehrer: Is it clear what steps Governor Hochul is considering, to take that New York example?

Madina Touré: Yes. Well, first of all, she's spoken about holding people accountable for hate crimes, hate speech. She's spoken about ordering a review of policies related to addressing antisemitism. She's spoken about giving more money to police departments to take on anti-hate crimes efforts. I think she's really trying to ramp up efforts around safety on this.

Brian Lehrer: You reported on an incident at Cooper Union last week. This has made some headlines, so people have heard it, but briefly, what happened there and what kinds of safety fears and new safety precautions, if any, did that school take that's not a state university or a city university, neither is Cornell, I guess, but it's not directly under the purview of the governor?

Madina Touré: Basically, what happened at Cooper Union was that there was this pro-Palestine rally, and there was a situation where Jewish students were in a library and feeling unsafe and feeling uncomfortable with respect to some of the things that were being chanted. I think the NYPD reported after that the library room wasn't actually locked, but there was a feeling amongst those students that their safety was at risk. I think The Cooper Union president was facing some backlash in terms of her response. I think there was a rally with the Councilmember Inna Vernikov, and a bunch of students there, were saying that they wanted to press charges. There was a feeling of unsafety.

Brian Lehrer: Inna Vernikov is not the model of decorum herself, if I'm thinking of the right person. Didn't she get called out for bringing a gun to a pro-Palestinian rally?

Madina Touré: Yes, I was going to mention that.

Brian Lehrer: You reported on an anti-Israel protest at Binghamton University, part of SUNY, after a student declared that Israel is worse than Nazi Germany, after which Jewish students and faculty signed a letter condemning the institution's response to the rise in antisemitism. Do you know what kind of response they were either reacting to as too little or that they want from the SUNY leadership or the Binghamton University leadership per se?

Madina Touré: I think it's the same across the board. I think they're looking for institutions to hold people accountable for whatever hate speech is being stated on campuses. I think that there's also been some more demands to withhold funding from institutions that receive public funds if they're not doing enough to tackle antisemitism.

Brian Lehrer: You reported on CUNY, the City University of New York, deploying public safety officers to spaces where Jewish, Muslim, and Arab students gather. Do you know if that's just preventative, or if it's in response to something on a CUNY campus?

Madina Touré: I think it's a little bit of both. I think that a lot of CUNY schools have been seeing pro-Palestine rallies, have been seeing issues around antisemitism and Islamophobia. I think the university, like others, has been talking about the importance of protecting free speech, but also when that delves into hate speech, boosting security and things like that.

Brian Lehrer: You quote the CUNY chancellor, Félix Matos Rodríguez saying, "The university is committed to free speech, but students are prohibited from using university property to promote political activities or agendas." Is that a new crackdown? I don't know if you know necessarily if it's a new crackdown because, of course, this is only in the news now because of what's going on, but is he getting blowback for that since free speech is centrally about political speech?

Madina Touré: Yes. We have been seeing some criticism of that, not just at CUNY but other institutions. I think more and more colleges are finding themselves in a tough spot because, on the one hand, there's a sense that they want people to be able to express their opinions, their political views freely, but now that this war has broken out and we've had these issues around antisemitism and Islamophobia, there's a sense now that universities need to do more to crack down on that.

At the same time, there are some growing concerns. For example, on the pro-Palestine side, where they're feeling concerned about being targeted by universities. We're seeing that in Florida, we're seeing that with De Santis as well who's banned pro-Palestine groups as well. There's a mixed perception around that.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a text from a listener that raises, I guess, what we might call one of the policy questions. It says, "Can you please define antisemitism first before you begin discussing it? A lot of us are unclear whether what's being described is criticism or actual bias." That's something that, I guess, university presidents, among others, are having to decide for themselves. Some people are deciding that they're falling wrongly on one side of that line or another, right?

Madina Touré: Yes. That's definitely been a big concern too. I think in the wake of these attacks, there has been a sentiment that any pro-Palestine rallies, at least from the pro-Israel side, are being seen as targeting Jewish people. Universities are in this tough spot where they're saying, "Okay, well-- Some institutions have put out statements saying, "Oh, these groups do not represent the views of the university." There is a tough line to walk there.

Brian Lehrer: I guess when there's something like that Cornell University student, who, at least according to the charges against him by the US attorney, was literally threatening to bring an assault rifle to a cafeteria where many Jewish students eat and calling on others to throw Jewish women off cliffs and other horrible things that he posted, that's so obviously antisemitism. One of the things I think that people are reacting to is that no matter where the line is, in those areas where it might be gray, between criticizing Israeli government actions and being antisemitism, there's a new threat environment that's real against Jews just for being Jews.

Madina Touré: Right. I think we saw such a swift condemnation from the governor, who, as I mentioned earlier, had met with the Cornell students earlier this week. I think there was an urgency around that, and then the following day, we saw her issue this address where she rolled out all these steps that the state is taking to address the issue. The Biden Administration is doing the same.

They rolled out some new actions around monitoring hate-related rhetoric online. The Education Department's updating their discrimination complaint form to more clearly state that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 does include certain forms of Islamophobia and antisemitism. I do think that in this particular place, with this particular incident, there was a sense of urgency to call it out and take some steps to address it.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Here's Josh, who is a Stony Brook professor. Josh, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

Josh: Hi. Can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: Yes.

Josh: Hi. I'm a professor at Stony Brook University. I'm Jewish, and I'm calling because I have a lot of concern about what I view as a new McCarthyism. We are watching what I believe to be a genocide happening now against Palestinian people conducted by the Israeli government. I'm not alone in using that loaded term, a lot of experts in human rights, human rights organizations, academics who study the history of genocide have used that word. Despite watching the deaths of, I'm sorry I'm going to get emotional, but thousands of children, it's just horrible.

Despite that, we are told that we can't criticize that because somehow that is antisemitic. I'm sorry, as a Jewish person who has descended from Holocaust survivors, I do not agree that Israel gets to commit genocide and escape any criticism. It's not antisemitic to criticize the Israeli government for what they're doing. It doesn't excuse the antisemitism that really is happening on campuses as well, but there is a lot of legitimate critique of this Israeli government atrocity. That is not antisemitic.

Brian Lehrer: Do you feel that you can't say publicly what your critique of the Israeli government activities are that you're characterizing as genocide and that that will be mistaken for antisemitism when you are clearly stating your opposition to a policy, which is the current war the way it's being waged?

Josh: Yes. I speak my mind. As a person who has deep family history with genocide, I will not be silent. I'm also a tenured professor, and I'm Jewish. Although I have received a lot of pushback on social media, for example, my job is not on the line, but I can't tell you how many times people who are untenured and students, have messaged me to thank me for speaking out because they're afraid to do so. Many of them say that they can't because either they're Palestinian or because they're Muslim or because they're Arabic from another part of the Middle East and because of what their name sounds like, they are afraid to criticize Israeli government policies.

I know of many cases now that we read about in the news of people who have lost their jobs. I was involved in an open letter to push back against the journal eLife, which fired its executive editor or editor-in-chief, who is Jewish, who criticized on social media the attacks by Israel. He lost his job because of explicit calls for his resignation or firing from scientists who disagreed with him.

Brian Lehrer: Are you feeling it from the other side as well? I think one of the things that horrifies people maybe on either side is when there are horrific acts coming from both sides, or ones that could be characterized as horrific acts, and the outrage seems to only come in one direction. You are highlighting what you are highlighting, some people might say, but October 7th, look at all the horrible things that they did and took videos of themselves doing and displayed and shared proudly and all of that stuff.

Josh: Absolutely, yes.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Josh: The hostages have to be released. The attack by Hamas against innocent Israeli civilians was repugnant. I feel the same way about the Israeli attacks against innocent civilians, but I will say I think that a Jewish baby and a Palestinian baby has equal value to us. They should have equal value to us, but I don't think we can make an equivalency between the violence that we saw of Hamas and the violence we see by the Israeli government because the Israeli is so disproportionate, not because they're worse, but because they have more power.

It is a modern army, a modern military with high-tech weapons, and they are unleashing the full force of high-tech military against a defenseless, unarmed population of civilians who are trapped in a land area and under siege, not even receiving food, water, or medicine. What Hamas--

Brian Lehrer: One more question for you then. What's your response since we've gotten to this policy point, to the Israeli government when they say they are not purposely targeting civilians, but they know they're killing civilians in the course of demilitarizing Hamas after what happened on October 7th, because they have a responsibility to their people not to let that kind of thing happen again, and they've given people opportunities to flee to the south of Gaza, et cetera, that there's really a moral difference there that falls to the Israelis advantage. What's your argument against that, if you have one?

Josh: My response to that is that every genocide in the history of humanity has begun with the dehumanization of the targets of that genocide. The Palestinian people have been dehumanized by rhetoric that has repeatedly and consistently come from the Israeli government leading to the devaluation of the lives of those civilians. One atrocity does not justify another atrocity, and it's not helping the hostages either to be bombed with carpet bombing from the air. My response is, they are destroying the culture and the fabric of the Jewish diaspora by behaving in a way that is morally bankrupt. It's not helping us as Jews either to have our culture torn apart by this type of behavior.

Brian Lehrer: Josh, thank you very much for calling from Stony Brook University. We have other people connected to other campuses waiting on the line as we talk about the Mideast war and college campuses, and we continue with our guest as well in this context. Madina Touré from POLITICO, who is covering college campuses and the war stay with us.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC as we continue to discuss the Mideast War and the tensions on college campuses with Madina Touré who covers higher ed, as well as K-12 for POLITICO New York. She's written four articles on the college campus scene since the October 7th attack by Hamas. We're going to go to more of your calls in just a minute and texts from people connected to college campuses. That's our specific invitation right now.

More college professors like the last caller, college students, staff members, anyone, what would you like to tell us as a story or an observation or feeling that you have about the mood on campus right now, safety on campus right now, free speech on campus right now, bias on campus right now? Any of this, 888-212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text. Madina, I'm curious what you were thinking. Probably a lot of things as you were listening to that last caller from Stony Brook. Is it typical of some of the exchanges, and I guess, he mentioned that he's got tenure, so he feels a little safer than some other faculty members might but still feels a little bit chilled to say what he was saying.

Madina Touré: Yes, no, I think it's definitely reminiscent of some of what I've been seeing on the reporting front. I did speak to someone at a Jewish organization at Queensboro College who spoke about students feeling unsafe more than unusual, but I have also heard from-- I did also speak with someone from Columbia University's Muslim Student Association who spoke about how students in that organization were facing doxxing attacks and how they felt like Columbia wasn't doing enough to protect them from Islamophobia.

There is sort of a tension there where Jewish students are feeling unsafe, Muslim students are feeling unsafe, and not just in terms of safety but even in terms of free speech. I think that same person that I spoke to was speaking about people are pro-Palestine rallies feeling like they're being treated differently, and so there is sort of a tension there for universities where-- You're starting to see that also in some of their statements. They have spoken about antisemitism. They're talking about Islamophobia as well. I think there's this consciousness of balancing the variant groups and their needs.

Brian Lehrer: Here's another professor from another university, Michael, who says he is a CUNY professor in Brooklyn, who I think has a different take than the Stony Brook professor we just had on calling in. Michael, you're on WNYC. Hello?

Michael: Actually, I have a very similar view to Josh.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, sorry about that.

Michael: I'm not sure if you want to take someone else.

Brian Lehrer: Well go ahead.

Michael: Well, yes, I think Josh is totally right. I teach at CUNY. I really find it pretty disturbing. I see it as McCarthyism as well. The criticism-- antisemitism must be condemned. What I heard about in Cornell sounds disgusting, but what's going on at CUNY and a lot of campuses is that people are equating antisemitism with criticism of Israel, and that's I think just absurd. One thing I would say also is, as Josh is Jewish, I'm not, but the Jewish community is not monolithic. There are massive demonstrations of Jewish students. The big protests at the Grand Central was organized by Jewish Voice for Peace.

The idea that everyone in the Jewish community feels like we must defend Israel, I think it's just inaccurate. I think it's a complicated situation. I think you have to see this in the context of what Josh was saying too. There's been a long attempt at universities to silence progressives who speak out about Israel, but other issues. This is being used as a sledgehammer to say any professor or any student who criticizes Israel is antisemitic. They must be either fired or silenced in some way. It's a really scary moment in American history. He talked about people who are being fired. I have tenure as well, but even people who have tenure feel threatened.

People are getting sued for speaking out, so it's a very dangerous situation. Yes, we must condemn antisemitism. We must have a safe space. We must allow people to voice their political views, and criticizing Israel is-- Majority of Americans support a cease-fire right now. It's not a bizarre argument to be making to saying that we support a cease-fire to argue that somehow that is supporting a cease-fire is somehow the same as defending Hamas. Saying a majority of Americans support Hamas, that's absurd. I understand why they're making that argument, but it's not an ethical argument for us and I'm concerned.

Brian Lehrer: Let me read two texts that have come in and get your reaction. Listener writes, "The caller is distinguishing between the Israeli government and Israel. Most of the rhetoric we see doesn't do that. It implies that Israel has no right to exist and that any Jew who doesn't agree is complicit. That's the antisemitism." Another listener writes, "Please speak to lack of equivalence. Jews are afraid of violence. Pro-Palestinians are afraid of being silenced and speaking out."

Michael: Well, criticizing specific policies of Israel, criticizing the right of Israel to exist, there are, actually, a lot of people who would argue there are many Jewish people who don't think that, who are critical to the idea of a Jewish state. I think I support a two-state solution myself, but I don't think you could say believing that Israel is a Jewish State is not a good idea, is antisemitic. I think, again, radical criticism of Israel, which I don't necessarily share, I don't see as antisemitic.

The other point about people feeling unsafe, I don't really know. I'd love to see some polling on how many Jewish students feel unsafe on campus. I think there's been a lot of studies that show that's not really accurate. I think people who are going around saying criticism of Israel, criticizing what they're doing in Gaza, is making Jewish students feel unsafe. I'd like to see some data on that. We need to make sure that Jewish students feel safe on campus. Actually, I wonder about the legitimacy of that [crosstalk].

Brian Lehrer: You think that's getting too much press compared to how much widespread fears for their safety are actually out there? Is that what you're saying?

Michael: Obviously, what happened in Cornell sounds absolutely disturbing. That's something that must be investigated and condemned. Whoever did that should be arrested. Having people protest on campus about stopping killing the people in Gaza, does that make Jewish students feel unsafe? I don't really know. I actually questioned that. Maybe it does. Obviously, a lot of Jewish people feel connected to Israel. I respect that, and I tried to have civil discussions with them about that, but the idea that everyone feels unsafe on campus, I really wonder about that.

Brian Lehrer: Michael, thank you for your call. Madina, do you see a pattern in the kinds of schools where this is happening most intensely more elite schools, like the Ivys, get tagged in the press a lot, but I cited some other kinds of examples from other parts of the country. In your articles, do you see patterns?

Madina Touré: The sense I'm getting is really happening all over. It's happened at schools in New York. We've seen it at Cornell, at Columbia, I think NYU, just all over the country. I think Cooper Union. I think the antisemitism, the Islamophobia, has been happening everywhere.

Brian Lehrer: Do you see any Jewish and Muslim or pro-Palestinian groups coming together to call for civility or to work together, to join hands, to really fight both antisemitism and Islamophobia, or both occupation and resistance that brutally target civilians that can rightly be called terrorism, as they debate any of the underlying issues or the immediate war?

Madina Touré: I've seen it a little bit, but there's mostly been a lot of opposing rallies at least from what I've seen in my reporting.

Brian Lehrer: Right. Let's see. Here's another text. This says, "Calling in," though they're writing in, "as a recent alum of Columbia, there's actually nothing wrong with critiquing the Israeli government. Israelis themselves have been protesting in the streets in protest of Israeli government policies for the past seven months, but let's not confuse this with anti-Zionism, which fundamentally denies Israel's very right to exist as a country. Critiquing Israel as not antisemitism, but denying its right to exist under any circumstance is denying the Jewish people the right to safety, security, and self-determination. Please make this distinction." There's that text.

Madina, I wonder if you see people from the rallies who are chanting things like "from the river to the sea" making that distinction. I was reading one article that was saying that from their perspective, this is being misinterpreted as kill all the Jews or run them into the sea, or Jews in what is Israel don't have rights to be there or express their politics. Is that what they mean by Palestine will be free from the river to the sea, really means they want a Western-style democracy there where Palestinians have the same right to vote for the national government as Jewish Israelis do, or all Israelis do, that they don't have now and that that's really what they mean and it's more benign than kill all the Jews or drive them out.

That's obviously a contentious point, a source of debate, but I'm curious if you've seen that come up when Jewish students feel that that slogan is basically denying their right to exist.

Madina Touré: Yes. I think that a lot of the students who have been participating in these pro-Palestine rallies have been speaking about how they feel like their chants are being misinterpreted, and as you said that's what they're looking to communicate. I do think that there are a lot of Jewish students who have expressed concerns about some antisemitism and antisemitic chants that have been a part of those rallies. I think there was an issue at Emory University around that as well. I do think there is a tension there in terms of what is meant by those comments.

Brian Lehrer: Well, as I said, we're not going to solve it in this conversation, but we've been hearing some of the expressions. Interestingly, the callers tended to be on one side. The texters tended to be on the other side. It just shook out that way by the randomness of the jaw, I guess. There you go, folks. Some of what's happening on college campuses right now, as reported by Madina Touré, who covers K-12 and higher education for POLITICO New York, and according to some of you on the phones and text messages. Madina, thank you for joining us.

Madina Touré: Thank you for having me.

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