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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Today on the show, if the world situation seems complicated right now, David Sanger from The New York Times has a way to explain it. His new book is called New Cold Wars, and it's his take on how he got from the end of the old Cold War around 1990 to where we are today. In 1990, if you've lived long you know, most Western leaders thought the future would be global democracy and global economic growth. They thought Russia was done with empire building when the Soviet Union collapsed, that China mostly wanted to integrate with the West through free trade that would lift all boats.

That the emerging new thing called the internet would democratize information and therefore make authoritarianism harder to maintain. That even the Israelis and Palestinians would realize that their forever war was benefiting neither of them and figure out a way to coexist. Where are we today? Information and disinformation chaos online. The resurgence of nationalism and authoritarianism on every continent. Global trade seen as a failure for the middle class, at least in this country, and the growing alliance between Putin, Xi Jinping, and the leaders of Iran.

The old Cold War is over, but the new world order that the West thought would emerge is instead giving way to what David Sanger calls new Cold Wars and the 21st century version of the question, how much will leaders everywhere have the wisdom and restraint to keep them from getting nuclear hot? David Sanger coming up with that big think analysis and to take your calls later in the show. Also, your calls on who you track on your phone and who tracks you. Parents and teenagers, spouses, and lovers, old college roommates, maybe even work colleagues. This is for you. Where's the line between safety and surveillance?

When does closeness become creepiness when you can always see exactly where the people in your life are or when they can see you? We'll start with a more local and granular and everyday turf war than the ones David Sanger is writing about. It's the turf war between delivery app companies, the delivery workers, and the restaurants that deliver through them in New York City. There was recently a wage increase law that took effect for the delivery workers. Some of you know, but if you're the customer in this equation, maybe you've noticed that on some of the apps, it's becoming harder to tip.

You have to look harder to find the tipping buttons or the suggested tipping percentages have gone down or you can only tip after delivery, not when you order, which makes tipping at all less likely. Delivery worker advocates say it's a form of retaliation for the higher wage law. The apps claim the law is causing restaurants to lose money and lay off employees. We'll get several views and take your calls. City Council Member Shaun Abreu is the sponsor of a bill to require the tipping to be clear and easily seen at the point of checkout. He's also proposing if I'm reading this right, a required minimum tip of 10%.

New York City Council Member Shaun Abreu joins us now. His Manhattan District runs from the Upper West Side to Washington Heights. Council member, welcome.

Council Member Shaun Abreu: Hey, Brian, thank you for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Always good to have you on. Also with us Ligia Guallpa, executive director of the Workers Justice Project, which represents delivery workers. Ms. Guallpa, welcome back to WNYC.

Ligia Guallpa: Thank you for having me as well.

Brian Lehrer: We will also hear in a few minutes folks from a restaurant owner who was referred to us by DoorDash who says his Queens-based business is being badly hurt by the new wage standards. Council member, would you remind us first about the recent wage hike law? I read that it brought the required wage to just under $20 an hour. Tell me if that's right and what exactly changed and when.

Council Member Shaun Abreu: When the minimum wage went into effect, the apps retaliated by removing the tipping option at checkout. Just to make very clear, deliveries does make $20 an hour for active time work. That's the moment during which the order is picked up from the restaurant and the moment that's delivered to someone's door, that's the only time a delivery is making minimum wage.

The time that they spent waiting for an order, which is referred to as call time, those resources get pulled among all deliveristas, but it's never to the amount, or I wouldn't want to say never, but it's almost never at the amount of a minimum wage. On balance delivers are actually not making a minimum wage an hour only when that delivery is being made.

Brian Lehrer: Can I jump in on that detail? Ms. Guallpa, how do the restaurants or the apps keep track of the exact minutes when a delivery worker is moving from the restaurant to somebody's home? Are they clocking in and out at that granular level in some way?

Ligia Guallpa: Yes, absolutely. What we have seen is the apps continue to be less transparent with workers, but also forcing workers to lose their flexibility by moving into a scheduling system, which is another tactic to limit the flexibility of workers who continue to be independent contractors and food delivery companies who continue to be less transparent about how workers are scheduling hours, but also how workers are being paid for the time that they're actively working.

Brian Lehrer: I'm curious, I'm sure listeners are curious just how that works. Does a delivery worker at the point when they leave the restaurant click a button on an app to say, "I'm on the clock now because I'm in transit," or something like that?

Ligia Guallpa: Yes. What we're seeing app delivery companies do is forcing workers to a scheduling system where workers are forced to schedule X number of hours without guarantee of actual work. What we're seeing is app delivery companies being less transparent, forcing workers into scheduling systems, tracking workers where they are but at the same time limiting workers' flexibility, which directly impacts the income of app delivery workers.

Brian Lehrer: Council Member Abreu, where does the tipping come in?

Council Member Shaun Abreu: The tipping comes in terms of a broader equity issue. We believe very strongly that consumers should be able to tip how much they want and as ever frequently as they want. That's why we have two bills. One bill would establish tipping at checkout and not tipping. Our goal is that tipping option will no longer be available after the delivery is ordered. No one is going to tip once their food has arrived, once their apps are closed, or once they're chowing down on their food. Anyone--

Brian Lehrer: I'm going to ask you a pushback question about that, that we're already getting a text message about from a listener, but we'll hold that for a second. Keep going with your answer.

Council Member Shaun Abreu: Anyone who has order on these apps can tell you that they'll reopen the apps weeks later to order again, only to see the tip menu from their order weeks ago. What apps like DoorDash and Uber has done is to disincentivize and discourage tipping altogether.

Brian Lehrer: How?

Council Member Shaun Abreu: By people are more inclined to tip at checkout than they are inclined to tip after you've [crosstalk].

Brian Lehrer: It's only after the wage increase took effect that they moved tipping from point of checkout to after delivery?

Council Member Shaun Abreu: That's correct. In fact, Grubhub still has it at checkout, but DoorDash and Uber removed it from checkout, and it's hurting deliveristas who depend on this for their livelihoods. With respect to the second bill, I would also like to say is a suggested minimum donation of 10%.

Brian Lehrer: Not required?

Council Member Shaun Abreu: It's not required.

Brian Lehrer: Noty required. I've seen it reported in the press as required, so I'm glad you're clearing that up.

Council Member Shaun Abreu: It's required that the option be presented, but consumers are not mandated to tip at all.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for clearing that up. Ms. Guallpa, why would the app companies like DoorDash and Uber benefit from the drivers getting fewer tips? Don't the company's profits only come from a percentage of the base order?

Ligia Guallpa: It is important to understand here, part of the norm before minimum wage and law implementation, the big delivery companies didn't have an issue about having the tipping option when you started to order the food. Removing the tipping really started right after minimum wage implementation as a way to continue to discourage consumers to tip but also as a tactic to intentionally hurt workers because now the companies have to pay the active time, which is meaning the time that most workers are actually working.

Brian Lehrer: Is there any financial benefit to the apps, to DoorDash and Uber in particular, I think those are the two you're singling out, by the delivery workers getting lower tips?

Ligia Guallpa: Of course. One of the things is adding a tipping option doesn't impact financially nor to the business, nor to the company, I think let's just start there. Then tipping really, as it was mentioned by the council member, it's a voluntary contribution of the consumer and it actually increases worker satisfaction and ability and recognition for the work that they do in the city of New York. It has been part of the norm in the industry for many years now. What we want to make sure is we continue with that tradition that has been part of New York City's fabric, tipping. We tip at the restaurants, we tip in many places.

Tipping to delivery workers should be part of the norm as the same in other industries. It should be a way to continue to recognize the labor of workers who do essential work for the city of New York.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, help us report this story, and you can share your opinions too. If you are in any role in the delivery economy, tell us your story. Are you a delivery worker listening right now? What's been happening since your official minimum wage went up? Have your tips gone down? Are you making more money or the same or less than before? How do you get paid for your time? 212-433-WNYC. If you're a customer who orders for delivery, is your ordering behavior or your tipping behavior changing since the minimum wage went up? Would you even know that happened if I didn't say it, that the minimum wage went up?

Have you noticed that it's become more inconvenient to tip on any of the apps in particular, or that it's only available after delivery, whereas as it used to be at the point of checkout as well. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or if you're a restaurant owner, and we're going to hear from one in a minute, or an employee, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Council Member Abreu, here's a pushback question, and I'm expanding on a comment from a listener via text message. "One could argue that tipping really only belongs at the point after service is delivered. Ligia just mentioned restaurants.

"You don't tip your server in a restaurant when they take your order at your table only after the meal when the customer decides how much of a tip they deserve or want to give. When you take an Uber after the ride is completed, not before, the app asks you to rate the driver one to five and determine your tip. Why shouldn't tipping delivery workers be done in the traditional way after the service is performed and with the variation is still there, depending on the quality of the service, but after the service is performed?"

Council Member Shaun Abreu: I have no reason to believe that a deliverista will not do its job. I can count on my hand after hundreds of deliveries how many times an order has never been delivered to my house. Maybe twice or three times. I know deliveristas are going to make the orders to my apartment. In many times, the deliveristas would even drive 3 miles to bring someone a French toast. Personally, I don't need to have it after the service has been delivered. We know delivery baristas are going to take their food to your door under the most severe conditions. For me, it doesn't really make a difference, and I think for a lot of consumers, it really doesn't make a difference.

Brian Lehrer: Ms. Guallpa, do you want to get in on that? Do you want to expand on that answer at all, add to it?

Ligia Guallpa: I think the unique difference between other workers is that delivery baristas are not workers. They're considered independent contractors. Let's start there. What that means for deliverista is that the current minimum pay, for the most part, most only covers from the time that they're actively working. That means that if a worker is not guaranteed and is not doing orders, especially now that this low season is coming, which is the summer, most workers depend on tipping to being able to compliment and make a living wage. Then the second I would say, tipping also allows deliveristas to make a financial decision whether it is worth to travel 3-4 miles to make that delivery.

The second thing is when a deliverista accepts your order, for most of the time, it's guaranteed and by the company's rule, it's like deliveristas are mandated to make that delivery. The other one is part of the tradition to guarantee and ensure that workers are recognized, and the best way to recognize workers is by tipping. It's part of New York City's tradition.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take one phone call before we bring in a restaurant owner from Queens who's going to give us a whole other story than we've been hearing from you or a whole other argument. Chris, in Westchester, you're on WNYC. Hi, Chris.

Chris: Hey. Good morning, Brian. It's Chris [unintelligible 00:15:16] from Armonk. I've been thinking about this tipping model for quite a bit. I go into my local coffee shop in the morning, for example, and there's a tip option. The problem with tipping is that it's discretionary. Some people are tipping, some people aren't. The wage rate fluctuates for the barista or for the delivery guy. I don't understand why the model isn't different. You implement a service fee, essentially, this is a service rendered. There is a contractual agreement to pay for that service, and that money then is used to pay a livable wage.

Brian Lehrer: That's a really interesting question, Chris. Ms. Guallpa, for you representing delivery workers I realize this would take an even bigger change than the council member's bill is proposing, but would you prefer in theory to go to a no-tipping but a delivery fee that gets paid to the delivery worker system? I know they debate this in restaurants too. Is it better to move-- Some restaurants are experimenting with no tipping, but a service charge that's transparent. Would you like that?

Ligia Guallpa: We all want more transparency. Let's have a bigger conversation about what we're dealing with. We are dealing with multi-billion dollar corporations who charges a fee to the restaurant, who charges a fee to the consumer. Who gets to keep that fee? For the most part, the companies. What we're asking here and what we have in fighting is with the minimum pay transparencies, ensuring workers get the ability to earn a living wage. We did that by guaranteeing this year $19.56.

The conversation about tipping is that $19.56 is not enough in the city of New York, not enough for independent contractors who have a high operating cost, and not enough workers were not guaranteed enough hours, and workers would not entirely guarantee all connected time. We have workers who might be connected five, six hours, but necessarily, that doesn't mean that that worker will be paid for those five, six hours.

Tipping allows to compliment the workers' income where they don't have enough work or when they're not being paid for all the connected time as well. What we are asking here for the city of New York is let's bring more pay transparency, for the companies to disclose the tipping to make it available and optional to consumers. It is at the end of the day, consumer's choice to tip or not. Let's make that option available to consumers and let's make them decide whether they want to tip.

Brian Lehrer: Also with us now is a restaurant owner from Queens who DoorDash arranged for us to speak to, to represent restaurant owners and by extension, the apps. Shuai Zhang owns POPRICE, a modern Chinese takeout restaurant that started with one location in Kew Gardens in 2020, has since expanded to three spots across Brooklyn and Queens, and was also selected this year as a vendor for the Citi Field's Taste of Queens lineup as it's called for the Mets 2024 season. Shuai, thanks very much for joining us. I'll be going to a game in a few weeks, and I'll look for your food at Citi Field. Welcome to WNYC.

Shuai Zhang: Thank you. Thank you for having us.

Brian Lehrer: Are you seeing an impact on your business from the new minimum wage for delivery workers?

Shuai Zhang: Oh, yes. We had three restaurants last year, and then since September our delivery revenue is down more than 50%. Then we had to shut down two other locations. We were having a team of 25 including our own delivery drivers, a team of 25 employees. Then now we have only four left.

Brian Lehrer: We have a number of people calling or texting to ask this question. Since you've just brought up that topic, I'm going to go right there first. Listener writes, "What is the advantage of restaurants joining a delivery app? We order only from restaurants that hire their own delivery personnel so that we know that the delivery person actually receives the tip." I think, Shuai, I heard you just say that you used to hire your own delivery people. Why don't you do that? Why don't a lot of restaurants do that rather than use the apps?

Shuai Zhang: Actually, we had our own delivery drivers using the app.

Brian Lehrer: I see.

Shuai Zhang: The third-party delivery apps provide that option that we could use our own delivery drivers. I see this service, this technology, the third-party delivery app, as a great way to manage the entire delivery process. Also, it's a great tool for us to reach out to our customers.

Brian Lehrer: Explain from your perspective why this increase to $20 an hour for delivery workers would've had such a deleterious effect on your business. A lot of listeners might say, well, $20 an hour isn't that much, and it's not that much more than they were making before. How could it be that it's cost you 50% of your delivery business or to close some of your locations?

Shuai Zhang: I think it's a one-two punch. This is a really bad timing to implement such change because the overall economy is also bad at this time. If they implement this change during 2022 or maybe 2021 when the delivery service was hottest it wouldn't be this bad. This is just one part of the problem. Another big part of problem is this new bill the city presented. It's not really built for the delivery business model because I give you an example of my own delivery workers, they were making more than $20 an hour on average, including tips on a daily basis.

It's because they know how to deliver efficiently and they treat this business as their own business so they grab the food, they make sure their customer is happy so they can get more tips in return. They never think about counting their time when they do delivery. They always try their best to deliver as fast as possible. Right now, since they are paid hourly, they're paid on clock. That means the speed of the delivery is not their first priority anymore because they come here, they want to make money. Obviously, they work for money.

Brian Lehrer: Would you explain that one? The DoorDash publicist who referred us to you said something similar. "Because Of the changes to how workers are compensated, you're having trouble getting delivery workers to take orders due to a lack of incentive," the publicist said. I don't understand that one. Wouldn't a higher wage for the time that they're actually in transit give them more incentive to work to take more orders?

Shuai Zhang: Only when they start the process, they have the incentive, but now they are trying to get more others down in a short period of time.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Shuai Zhang: Because now customers pay more fees so most of the customers they cut down their tips anymore. They don't pay tips anymore, or they cut down their tips to maybe a dollar back. We have seen that.

Brian Lehrer: Maybe in your interest too for the tips to be maximized under the bill that the council member is proposing or the availability of tipping to be maximized. Do you agree or disagree?

Shuai Zhang: Actually, I don't want to comment on that because I'm not a policymaker. I agree with the city, what they're trying to do. They want to provide a better life for the delivery drivers. There are many other ways, but I'm speaking the fact that the delivery, we're seeing live delivery orders. Customers are paying more money for delivery food, and we're seeing live delivery drivers coming here to pick up the food. Some of the food stays in restaurant with delivery driver for 20, 30 minutes, and the food will be called once it's delivered to the customer, and the customer obviously not going to be happy and they'll pay even less tips. A lot of [crosstalk]--

Brian Lehrer: Because the price went up. How much do you say you've had to raise prices for the dishes at your restaurant that are being delivered? That you'd say is because of the delivery workers now making $20 an hour. How much have you had to raise prices?

Shuai Zhang: Oh, we lowered our price to combat this. If we increase our price, we are pushing even more customer away from us, from ordering from us. The fact is, two of my workers right now working in my restaurant as a cook, they work our delivery drivers and they all say that they're making less money per day than before.

Brian Lehrer: Council Member Abreu, would you like to ask our guest, the restaurant owner from Queens, Shuai Zhang, any question?

Council Member Shaun Abreu: Sure. I'm curious to know whether or not he thinks that apps are squeezing out restaurants. Because it seems as though that apps can get up to 20% per order. Is there a room here for the apps to get less of a share here in order to make it easier on their business?

Shuai Zhang: That would be great, but we have filled the system for this 20%. I think there's a gap right now in the city since COVID, and it works for us because we especially have this delivery system built for that 20%, and we can still make around 10% of profit after all. I believe not only they take a 20% cut, but they save us a lot of management labor and also they help us with marketing. For my first location, we are in a [unintelligible 00:26:45] that during COVID there's no office anymore in the building. Even right now, only 30% of office operational in the building.

We don't have any food traffic in that location anymore. Without using delivery platform, without attracting customers further away from the location, we wouldn't have this business at all.

Council Member Shaun Abreu: Brian, can I ask another question?

Brian Lehrer: Yes, please.

Council Member Shaun Abreu: My other question is, my understanding is that there has been a decline in orders because we have been coming out of the pandemic. Have you seen a downward trend of orders coming your way before minimum wage came into effect?

Shuai Zhang: No. I think last year summertime was slow because the summer. Every summer is slow for us. September, since everybody come back to work, the students come back to school, we see a big increase during September. October is where we hit the increase. Compared to the year before, we lost more than 50% of the delivery sales.

Brian Lehrer: Ms. Guallpa, do you want to engage at all with Shuai? We have two presumably sympathetic populations here, the delivery workers and small restaurant owners like him.

Ligia Guallpa: Yes. I think I just wanted to, first of all, appreciate his own experience sharing because at the end of the day, deliveristas and restaurants are actually in the business to support each other. Something that I want to ask him is about if they feel that the delivery fees charged by the companies have increased because of the minimum pay? Has he seen that?

Brian Lehrer: Shuai, you get the question?

Shuai Zhang: I'm sorry, I lost a little bit. What was the question? Can you please--

Ligia Guallpa: If you feel that the delivery companies are charging you more fees for the service they provide you because of the minimum pay increase.

Brian Lehrer: I do have a text from a listener here too that says, "As someone who orders maybe once a week, I've noticed a continual increase in fees. That's separate from the tipping." Shuai, go ahead.

Shuai Zhang: I don't think the delivery platform charge us more money, more fees. They pass the fees to customers. They charge more fees from the customer. We lost customer because they don't have extra money to spend on delivery. Delivery has become a luxury for them.

Brian Lehrer: Would you rather see the apps disappear as a restaurant owner?

Shuai Zhang: Before I opened my restaurant, early in my career, in my restaurant career, I actually managed my own delivery team for a local Chinese restaurant. We were doing everything on our own. I can tell you that management for that aspect is really, really difficult. There are a lot of liabilities involved. I don't want to go back to that age. I think there has to be a way that we can utilize technology to make the process smoother and brighter.

Brian Lehrer: They are performing a service for your restaurant. Shuai Zhang owns, tell me if I say it right, POPRICE.

Shuai Zhang: Yes. POPRICE one word.

Brian Lehrer: A modern Chinese takeout restaurant that started in Kew Gardens. You still in Kew Gardens?

Shuai Zhang: Yes. This is our first location and our main location.

Brian Lehrer: If I go to a Mets game, where can I find you at Citi Field?

Shuai Zhang: We are next to the Shake Shack where you can see Taste of a Queen's POPRICE.

Brian Lehrer: Everybody knows where the Shake Shack is. Thank you for joining us.

Shuai Zhang: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Before we flip topics here, any, I don't know, Councilman, any new common ground that might emerge out of that that's in everybody's interest?

Council Member Shaun Abreu: Not really. I don't think we should be scapegoating deliveristas to begin with. If consumers are seeing this as an increased cost of ordering food, consumers have the option to not tip at all. If it's within your means to tip, even after realizing what the cost of food is, then by any means you can still tip. I also want to make clear again, that the apps have the power here, and restaurants as well. The apps are squeezing our restaurants, and they have it within their powers to make sure that that cap, they're not charging restaurants up to the 20% cap to make it easier on our restaurants.

Also, when the minimum wage went into effect, there were fees that were passed on to customers. The customers are paying for the minimum wage. How is it that the minimum wage is impacting restaurants? It just doesn't make any sense. Customers are the ones bearing the cost of that. If customers and consumers want to bear the costs for tipping, we want to make that option available to them. I also want to make clear that deliveristas aren't making the minimum wage for every time that they're working. If it's active time worked, yes.

They get minimum wage from the moment they pick up the delivery to the moment drop it off, but the time that they spend waiting to get orders, that's not getting minimum wage. Those are resources that are being pulled among all deliveristas for call time, and we want transparency. Why is it that some deliveristas are making more and others making less? That goes back to our transparency issues that we also are working on at the City Council.

Brian Lehrer: Ligia Guallpa, I want to thank you, executive director of the Workers Justice Project, which represents delivery workers. Thank you very much for joining us. Good to have you on again.

Ligia Guallpa: Thank you for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we're going to continue with Council Member Abreu briefly on another topic when we come back after a break. This one's going to be more universally popular, I think. Birth control for rats, which he's also proposing in a new bill in City Council. Stay with us.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. A few more minutes with New York City Council Member Shaun Abreu, from Upper Manhattan from Washington Heights down to the Upper West Side. On another bill, you're working on about the rat population in the city. Is this your idea about feeding the rats tasty forms of birth control that work on both male and female rats?

Council Member Shaun Abreu: It's certainly not my idea to invent birth control for rats, but it's certainly our idea to make sure that we establish a pilot program through legislation. We're really excited about the prospects. We know that two rats in a given year can reproduce 15,000 descendants. We can't get our way out of this by just killing rats. We got to get to it at the source, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Why does this need to be a city council bill? Can't Mayor Adams' Rat Czar just decide to do it?

Council Member Shaun Abreu: The council's job is to legislate the mayor's job is to execute. There's nothing stopping the mayor from establishing a birth control program for rodents, but we're taking the initiative at the Council through legislation.

Brian Lehrer: Here is, I think, a constituent in your district who has a reaction to this. Leslie in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hello, Leslie.

Leslie: Thank you. Councilman Abreu, I applaud what you're doing about the rats. I think it's absolutely fabulous. I have been in touch with people in your office who have been most attentive about a major problem on the Upper West Side at West 100th Street, between Amsterdam and Columbus Avenues, where there is a 24th police precinct and a fire company 76 ladder 22--

Brian Lehrer: Leslie, I know you've been a caller on this issue before, and you know I used to live around there, and we've talked but I thought you were calling about the rats today.

Leslie: I am calling about the rats. It's rats-infested because you can't clean the garbage. It's very important that he be able to feed the rats birth control. In addition, if you leave the garbage all over the street because you can't clean the street, you're just welcoming the rats to have food to eat.

Brian Lehrer: You're saying all the parking and double parking by the police and fire stations are impeding sanitation? Is that what you're saying?

Leslie: Without a question. You cannot ever get this street cleaned. It is impossible. I have patience. I have worked with the community relations people at both the police and the fire. In addition, now on Columbus Avenue from 97th to 100th Street, we have several big box stores, where although their garbage is picked up, their platforms where they receive the garbage are never swept out, so [sound cut] big garbage, but they never clean the floor.

Brian Lehrer: Leslie, I'm going to leave it there. Thank you for joining the council member's attention to that block. Lorraine in Westchester has a different take on birth control for rats may be a side effect. Is that right, Lorraine?

Lorraine: That's correct. Thank you, Brian. I'm a licensed wildlife rehabilitator with the Center for Wildlife. I handle birds of prey amongst other wildlife. At least two times a year, I receive birds of prey, hawks, owls, et cetera, that have secondary poisoning from the rat, because rats are slowed down or not killed immediately because that protects other people. It takes a couple of days. During that time when they're slowed down, they're easy prey for the birds of prey and poisoning is not the answer. I think birth control certainly is. Oh, you had a gentleman on few months ago that talked about CO2.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, so you're for the birth control because that means less rat poison. Am I understanding you correctly?

Lorraine: That's right. We need a smaller population and they wouldn't have to use as much poison.

Brian Lehrer: Right. Very good. Thank you.

Council Member Shaun Abreu: I can respond to that, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Councilman, go ahead.

Council Member Shaun Abreu: First of all, I'm excited that folks are excited about birth control for rats. One of the main reasons we're also doing it too is that we realize that rodenticide just doesn't work. The anticoagulants that are within rodenticide, rats have grown resistant towards it. We know as well the impact that rodenticide can have on not only on birds of prey but also domestic animals like dogs. There was a case in Washington Heights where a dog died from rodenticide. It's an overall win at getting at the source of the problem but also when you think about wildlife and domestic animals.

Brian Lehrer: We are getting texts about what I thought the caller in Westchester was going to say. This text says, "All I want to know is just like the rat poison pass through that killed Flaco, what's to stop birth control from passing through to birds of prey?"

Council Member Shaun Abreu: Sorry, what's the question?

Brian Lehrer: The question is, what's to stop the birth control from passing through to owls and other birds of prey if they eat the rats that have taken birth control?

Council Member Shaun Abreu: Yes. This has non-toxic substances. This will have no problem at all in terms of the impact it would have on passing it on. That's my answer to that.

Brian Lehrer: Non-toxic but also wouldn't cause the birds to beimpaired from reproducing, you're saying.

Council Member Shaun Abreu: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: On the effectiveness, a New York Times article notes that several generations of rat birth control dating all the way back to Governor Nelson Rockefeller's day have been tried and have failed. Why would this be any better?

Council Member Shaun Abreu: Let me tell you how we have been changing our practices in terms of waste management and it has a lot to do with why I think this will be effective. There have been failed experiments from a very long time on birth control because rats have had extreme access to piles of trash that have been sitting out on the street. Remember, rats only need one ounce of food to survive any given day. Now that we're containerizing our trash, rats are more likely to eat the actual contraceptive. It's basically a sweet salty peanut-buttery substance in a solid pellet form that rats will be attracted to.

That's why we will be introducing this rat birth control within the rat mitigation zone and within the areas where trash is containerized. In my district, we have containerization pilot and there's no bags of trash out on the street. It increases the likelihood that rats will be eating the contraceptive and that's going to make a big difference.

Brian Lehrer: I was going to ask you about that too, real quick, because we're almost out of time. Can you see a measurable difference in the rat population from your district having the containerization experiment rather than plastic bags?

Council Member Shaun Abreu: Off the bat, Brian, there has been a 68% reduction in the first 3 months in rat sightings. [unintelligible 00:41:46] complaints have gone down by 68%. If you walk through West Harlem, it feels different. Everybody is taking pride in their neighborhood. Everybody is dropping off their trash on their way to work or after they get back from work. It's become a norm and a way of life even.

Brian Lehrer: Last question on the birth control. Can you trust the male rats to actually take the birth control when they say they are? No, I'm just kidding.

Council Member Shaun Abreu: [laughs]

Brian Lehrer: We will leave it there with New York City Council Member Shaun Abreu. We've talked about his bill on tipping. We've talked about his bill on birth control for rats. Thanks a lot for joining us.

Council Member Shaun Abreu: Thank you, Brian.

 

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