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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now, our climate story of the week, how climate showed up in Governor Hochul's budget proposal. Last week, Governor Hochul released her $227 billion state budget proposal for the fiscal year that begins April 1st, and it's full of climate provisions to implement an important climate law. The 2019 Climate Leadership and Community Protection Act was one of the most ambitious climate plans in the country. It could become a model for other states in the future.

We know that much, at least on paper. After it was passed, 22 people were appointed to the Climate Action Council to come up with recommendations to meet the law's emissions and environmental goals. This is the first budget since the Climate Action Council finalized its recommendations. The budget does mark some of the first steps toward implementing the law and taking some concrete steps toward climate mitigation in New York State.

What climate provisions are actually in the budget? Liz Moran, a policy advocate for Earthjustice, the advocacy group, the environmental group, Earthjustice, their Northeast office, is here to discuss the climate provisions in the governor's new budget and where her group says it gets real in the budget and where it remains only on paper not to be implemented well enough. Liz, welcome to WNYC. Thank you for coming on today.

Liz Moran: Thanks so much for having me.

Brian Lehrer: To start off, could you remind everybody a little bit about the climate law itself that was passed in 2019 and why, at least on paper, it's such an important piece of legislation?

Liz Moran: Yes, so New York State's climate law, the Climate Leadership and Community Protection Act, sets into law. By statute, we have mandates to cut greenhouse gas emissions to net zero by 2050. There's a number of goals in between. We have to have a carbon-free grid. There's a number of other steps along the way leading up to 2050 that are really important for us to meet. They align critically with what global climate scientists recommend we need to do globally to address the climate crisis.

New York State is one of the largest global economies, so New York State is really viewed as a global climate and environmental champ. A lot of other states and other countries look to New York for this kind of leadership. We're setting the stage for other states and other countries to follow, which is why it's so important that we have a strong budget this year and we pass policies that make sure we're geared up to meet the mandates of this law.

Brian Lehrer: Let's get specific because the reason we invited you on is that Earthjustice released a statement with some early comments about some of the provisions in Hochul's actual budget proposal, so let's go down this list. We've discussed on this show, the proposal to make all new construction electric in terms of its utility, so no more gas stoves. That's a big topic of conversation nationally right now. Should gas stoves be eliminated in future construction? Theoretically, they would be. It's mentioned in the budget, but I see that Earthjustice has a couple of critiques. Do you want to go there?

Liz Moran: Yes, so we'll start with we're really pleased that the governor has put this forward in her budget. She had something similar in her budget last year. Buildings contribute a huge proportion of New York State's greenhouse gas emissions. The building sector is around 1/3 of the state's greenhouse gas emissions. There are some real consequences, particularly for indoor air quality.

Gas stoves, in particular, contribute to some pretty nasty indoor pollution and this has been attributed to 19% of childhood asthma cases in New York. There are some real consequences here, right? Very important for New York State to tackle this sector of emissions. The governor has proposed a mandate for all-electric new construction, starting 2026 for small buildings and 2028 for larger buildings with some exemptions carved out. We are strongly advocating for the state to actually mirror New York City's local law on this.

New York City has local law 154 of 2021, which mandates all-electric construction for buildings six stories and under starting in 2024. We're thrilled that New York City has this policy. In a lot of ways, New York City has set the stage for the rest of the state when it comes to climate policy. Since New York City do it, we feel pretty confident the rest of the state can do this too. We're hopeful that the final budget will adopt language on this policy that much more closely aligns with what New York City has.

Brian Lehrer: Your critique is timeline, right, that the state could do this faster? That, I think, is what I hear you saying. Tell me if that's wrong, but are you confident that the legislature this year will pass the "no new gas stoves in future construction" provision at all, even beginning in those years?

Liz Moran: We feel really confident this is going to happen this year. It's a very popular policy actually. There was some recent polling conducted this past fall that found that 66% of New Yorkers support policy banning fossil fuels in new construction. This is a popular policy. We actually had a rally in Albany that had over 200 attendees a couple of weeks ago to show the strong support for this policy.

There's standalone legislation carried by Assemblymember Gallagher and Senator Kavanagh known as the All-Electric Building Act. That legislation is continuing to get new co-sponsors every day. We don't see any reason why this wouldn't happen this year. I will note, gas stoves are really only a small piece of this component, right? The legislation is focused solely on new construction.

Sure, there wouldn't be gas stoves for new buildings, but very importantly, we also would be having heat pumps power people's homes and keep them warm. This is technology that is becoming much more common across the state. We know the technology is available and ready and very necessary to make sure our homes have less indoor pollution and are contributing less to the climate crisis.

Brian Lehrer: How much do you see heat pumps as applicable to apartment buildings and not just single-family homes?

Liz Moran: The technology is rapidly advancing here. In New York City, the legislation mandates all-electric new construction for buildings six stories and under. This is to account for some of the engineering considerations when it comes to larger buildings like apartment buildings, but heat pump technology is totally there. I think it's important to note that right now, especially with cold air heat pumps, so there are heat pumps designed specifically for much colder weather, that technology is getting better and better and would work for every climate region of New York State. Pretty much every region of New York State already has buildings that are being constructed that are all-electric and rely upon air-source heat pumps or geothermal.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, if you're just joining us, we're getting an environmentalist critique of the climate provisions in the new budget proposal for the next New York State fiscal year revealed by Governor Hochul just recently. The fiscal year begins April 1st. Her budget proposal is out there now. The state legislature is beginning to debate it. This would really all come to a head next month as it does every March. We are looking specifically at the climate spending proposals and getting a critique of them from Liz Moran from the environmental group, Earthjustice, their Northeast office, in particular.

We've talked about the electrification of buildings provision. Another interesting thing in the budget is a cap-and-invest program. People have heard of cap-and-trade maybe as it relates to climate change. Cap the total amount of emissions that are allowable, and then let businesses trade emission credits. Buy and sell them for who has the right to pollute the climate up to the allowable total limit. Could you explain cap-and-invest in comparison to that and how this is supposed to work in New York State?

Liz Moran: Sure, so I'll kick things off by talking about how important it really is to invest in climate measures and invest in the development of renewables, provide people with funding so they can retrofit their homes and other buildings to get off of fossil fuels and to ramp up electric vehicle adoption. Part of the reason this is so important is really to save New Yorkers money. We're going to backtrack a little bit regarding all-electric buildings as one example.

All-electric new construction would actually save New Yorkers a lot of money on their energy bills. A study came out this past fall that found New Yorkers can save up to $900 every year on their energy bills in all-electric new building. That's why it's important to invest in our climate. We'll ultimately be saving New Yorkers money. All-electric new construction is one policy that will help with that, but cap-and-invest has a lot of potential too. To go back to that, New York State is actually part of a cap-and-trade program already known as RGGI.

Criticisms of RGGI have been about making sure that funding actually goes towards the communities that have been the most harmed by the climate crisis, communities of color, and communities of low income, and also making sure that the polluters in those areas are properly kept so they don't continue disproportionately polluting those communities. The governor has started to keep things off of cap-and-invest, but there's still a lot of details that remain to be sussed out. We don't know exactly how much money this program would generate yet and we don't know exactly how the program would prioritize low-income and disadvantaged communities.

Brian Lehrer: When they say "cap-and-invest," is that what a Republican might look at and say, "Oh, that's really cap-and-spend. That's government spending. That's not just cap the amount of emissions and then let the private sector figure out who's going to have what pollution rights like cap-and-trade. Cap-and-invest means you're going to say no more emissions than this in total, and then the government is going to spend a lot"?

Liz Moran: The way the program would work is, yes, it would put caps on-- Ideally, it would be economy-wide. That means all the different polluting sectors would have a cap on their emissions and then the money collected from that cap would go towards programs to address the climate crisis. This makes a ton of sense, particularly--

Brian Lehrer: It's a tax then. It's like a carbon tax because those polluting industries will exceed the target caps, is that right?

Liz Moran: It's not quite like a carbon tax, but there's something in common in that it's making the polluters pay. New York State actually has a long legacy as a state that makes polluters pay for their pollution. New York State was one of the first to have a Superfund program. State Superfund program basically looks at polluters in different communities and says, "The cleanup costs go to you because you're the one who made this mess, so you should clean it up."

That's part of the crux of what could be part of a cap-and-invest program here. There's obviously other policies the state could also consider that would adhere to that principle, but that's what's important about cap-and-invest. It's really important that we get the details right to make sure that that funding is going towards the communities that need it most, that goes to programs that transition us off of fossil fuels as rapidly as possible, but categorizing it as like a carbon tax is probably too simple.

Brian Lehrer: Right, so do you like the version in the Hochul plan? I'll note that your group is not called Save the Earth simply or something like that. It's Earthjustice. We hear you that you're emphasizing these environmental justice aspects. Does the Hochul plan get there? It looks like you like a lot about it, but there are some things you don't like.

Liz Moran: Well, really, it's lacking in details still. A lot of what's been outlined has potential, but we aren't really seeing the details yet. A lot would get kicked to regulations. When we're a little concerned about that, we think that some of these things really should be delineated in the law to make sure that the communities that need the most protections get them and funding towards disadvantaged communities is prioritized. We also have a better idea of how much money this could really generate. Those are details that we would want to see finessed as the budget is negotiated.

Brian Lehrer: This is WNYC FM HD and AM New York, WNJT-FM 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Netcong, and WNJO 90.3 Toms River. We are New York and New Jersey Public Radio and live streaming at wnyc.org. Few more minutes with Liz Moran from the environmental group, Earthjustice, as we break down Governor Hochul's fiscal year 2024 budget proposals, just recently released as they would affect the climate in our climate story of the week. Kate in Chelsea, you're on WNYC. Hi, Kate.

Kate: Hi, how is the electric grid going to handle this and what happens in a blackout?

Brian Lehrer: Great question. If we go all-electric for heat and everything else, what happens in a blackout compared to what we have today?

Liz Moran: Yes, this is a really good question, a common one that comes up. I'll start with, in a blackout, current boilers that rely upon fossil fuels also go out. There wouldn't be any difference there. We do need to make sure we update the grid and make sure that it's up to snuff for all the electrification needs we have. That said, for all-electric new construction, the grid has capacity. NYSERDA has conducted a study and found that, over the next 10 years, the grid has capacity to handle all-electric new construction.

Part of the reason for that is heat pumps and geothermal would transition our grid demand. Right now, we are a summer peaking system, so we use most of our energy during the summer. Having heat pumps would transition us towards a winter peaking system, so we wouldn't be peaking as much in the summer. We'd peak more in the winter and we have capacity for that. It's also really important to note, all-electric new buildings would be much more energy efficient. They're going to be consuming less energy than a traditional new home would anyway.

Brian Lehrer: Jane in the Bronx has a question about the cap-and-invest program as you were describing a couple of minutes ago. Jane, you're on WNYC. Hi.

Jane: Great, good morning. Thanks for continuing on this super-important legislation. Cap-and-invest. My understanding and I could have it wrong, so I want to get this clarified because it's complicated, businesses will have a cap and they can't go above that pollution cap. The more they don't pollute, the less they pollute, the lower they'll be fined or taxed or whatever word you want to put on there, so there's an absolute cap. Then if I can run my business at zero net emissions, then I don't have to pay anything extra. The cap is going to move down over time because we got to get to net zero in just a few years. Is that the right way to think of it?

Liz Moran: Yes, that's been summarized really well. What the governor has outlined is there would be a gradually declining cap on greenhouse gas emissions. It would set an annual cap on greenhouse gas pollution and that cap would decrease every year. Emitters would be required to purchase allowances via state-held auctions for emissions that are associated with their activities.

Over time, as the caps decrease, allowances would become scarcer and basically cost more. That is pretty much how it would function. If your business would fall under a cap-and-invest program and you're not emitting anything, no, you wouldn't have to pay anything because you're adhering to the climate law and modelling what businesses should be doing. Yes, that's the beauty of the cap-and-invest proposal.

Brian Lehrer: We have so many phone calls. I want to apologize in advance to many of you who are not going to get to on this, and so many different calls and questions. Not everybody's asking the same thing, which is great. I'll just say that I'm very glad we renewed our climate story of the week for another year. We're going to be doing it at the same time every week, starting with this segment actually.

In the second part of the ten o'clock hour on Tuesdays, we'll be doing our climate story of the week on The Brian Lehrer Show throughout 2023, so you can mark that down. Obviously, just looking at our caller board week after week, so much interest in covering the climate. I'm glad this is landing out there. We'll take one more call for today's segment. Muk in Carrboro, North Carolina, but yes, talking about New York State. Hi, Muk, you're on WNYC.

Muk: Hi, Brian. You're very popular in the South. I just have a quick policy question for Liz. I know there was a $4 billion environmental bond that was passed a couple of months ago on the ballot. I was curious how that fits into Governor Hochul's budget proposals. Is it additional money or is it part of the proposal? I'm just curious about that interaction. Thank you so much.

Brian Lehrer: Great question. The voters of New York State did just pass that $4 billion Environmental Bond Act, and then nobody's talked about it since, so how does that intersect with a new budget?

Liz Moran: I got to say, I love that this question came from a caller in North Carolina. This really shows how New York is such an influential state. An interesting one, in my opinion. The $4 billion Bond Act, really important stuff. We're so thrilled that voters approved this plan. It's not really reflected in the budget yet, so we have that money. It'll be bonded. It'll be slowly going out the door.

I will highlight that the budget does include historic increases in staffing to the Department of Environmental Conservation and some other agencies that will be tasked with implementing the Bond Act. That's one way we're starting to see the Bond Act reflected in the budget, but still, so far, this is early. We'll probably see more about the Bond Act in future budgets.

Brian Lehrer: That's going to be the last word for today. We will continue to cover not just the climate in general in many different aspects but, in particular, as the New York State budget negotiations peak in the month of March, what these climate provisions do, how they get changed, and how they get debated by the legislature, and what become not only the talking points but the controversial points, what gets actually implemented, and what doesn't. Stay tuned for that and future climate segments of the week here on the show. For today, we thank Liz Moran, policy advocate for the environmental group, Earthjustice, with their critique of parts of Governor Hochul's climate budget. Thank you so much, Liz. We really appreciate it.

Liz Moran: Thank you.

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