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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now our climate story of the week part two for this Earth Day, the leading edge of climate activism. The group that calls itself Extinction Rebellion has been staging direct action events using nonviolent civil disobedience in some cases. Locally, tomorrow is the last day of what they're calling their New York City spring rebellion. One of their press releases that I have says Extinction Rebellion believes it is a citizen's duty to rebel using nonviolent civil disobedience when faced with criminal inaction by their government.

They also ask what would a mass mobilization like during World War II look like in the fight against climate change? With me now is Christina See, political strategy coordinator and spokesperson for Extinction Rebellion. Christina, you must be very busy here on Earth Day, so thanks a lot for making this one of your stops. Welcome to WNYC.

Christina See: Thanks so much for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Anything from my intro first of all that you would want to add or correct about what Extinction Rebellion basically is?

Christina See: I would just add that it's global and that there's around 1,200 groups around the world at this point after about three and a half years of existence, and we focus both on non-violence civil disobedience. Also, a big part of that is addressing climate or eco-grief because when you talk about these issues, it's highly depressing and it's a tough thing to process so it's another core element of it.

Brian Lehrer: Well, since we're going to talk a lot about nonviolent civil disobedience, why don't you touch first on that other thing you just said that I guess should be self-explanatory but you could tell us how you deal with it, eco-grief.

Christina See: We're living both with climate change and also a mass extinction event and so hearing that we may lose up to a million species due to human behavior is pretty heavy. There's a saying that gets thrown around is that action is the antidote to despair so a lot of the time just like taking action with other people and pushing for change really helps to alleviate that element.

Brian Lehrer: Activism as an antidote to grief.

Christina See: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting, and of course, we could think of all kinds of stories from recent or even longer ago history where after a loss especially a loss that was related to some kind of crime or something like that, the grieving loved ones do get involved politically as a way to channel their grief and so their loved ones will not have died in vain. Can you give us an example of the nonviolence disobedience direct action that Extinction Rebellion has done recently, either here in New York or somewhere else?

Christina See: Sure. Actually last night and this morning, there was an action that took place at the printing plant of New York Times and Wall Street Journal, and it basically shut down the entrances and stopped the trucks from being able to deliver the newspapers. That was to call attention to the fact that the New York Times is still taking advertising money from fossil fuel companies, whereas their coverage of climate is a lot better than it used to be but they're still taking fossil fuel advertising money. The Wall Street Journal specifically is just not covering climate change anywhere close to where it needs to and throws in a lot of climate denial discourse and rhetoric.

Brian Lehrer: How did that go? What do you do? Do people physically block the exit ramps for the trucks from a depot or what was that action?

Christina See: There was, I believe it was four people up on tripods, so about 15 to 20 feet up in the air just hanging out there for, I think, it was between six and eight hours. There was also people who had chained themselves to concrete barrels and also glued themselves to a boat that got dropped in the entrance. There was a lot of different ways people used their body in that way. The police had to bring out the power tools and basically, they cut through the objects that they've chained themselves to.

Brian Lehrer: They did get the trucks out eventually but they had to work harder to do it?

Christina See: It was actually an email that just came out from the New York Times saying that the paper for today will not be delivered until tomorrow due to transportation issues.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, really?

Christina See: Yes, that went out to their subscribers today.

Brian Lehrer: That's called a successful disruption.

Christina See: People are talking about the issues now and that's really the core element of it. No one really wants to be doing this but the issue is that governments and media corporations really aren't addressing the climate crisis like they need to.

Brian Lehrer: Would you or do you engage in hacking or cyber disruptions of news organizations since more people get their news that way?

Christina See: No. We tend to stick with using our bodies to do actions, and they're anywhere from posturing to get the word out about Extinction Rebellion and the climate crisis and the issues related to that. There's also people who've gone on hunger strike.

These are all tactics that have been used for hundreds of years, the suffragists used direct action and civil disobedience to get women the right to vote. It was a core element of the Civil Rights Movement and the ACT UP Movement around the AIDS crisis, so it's a part of a long history in this country and it's part of democracy.

Brian Lehrer: Sure, and the story you just told of just for people physically involved in that disruption is interesting because if people are only casually aware of civil disobedience, nonviolent civil disobedience, they might think about a Martin Luther King or a Gandhi in the case of India, and it being large numbers of people, or you mentioned ACT UP, how many people were there in St. Patrick's Cathedral once upon a time who suddenly did a die-in or something like that, but there had to be critical mass of people. You're saying you can be effective with just a few people at a time.

Christina See: Yes, definitely. I think there's strategic elements to it and at this action this morning, I believe, there was 15 people arrested related to it. Throughout this last week, we've had marches and die-ins and a number of other protests. I think 41 people altogether, other than today, were arrested during those actions. That's not to say that arrest is the sole priority or reason for taking action but it can be used strategically both to gain awareness because the media likes to cover flashy things and not the mundane, so it tends to get coverage that way which raises the issue.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take your stories of your own pro-climate civil disobedience or your questions or anything related for Christina See from the group Extinction Rebellion on this Earth Day, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer.

Let's talk more about arrest which you just brought up. New York Magazine did an article that I saw on Extinction Rebellion that included a description of how you determine if it's safe for different members to get arrested and how you train people, basically, on how to get arrested. Can you talk a little about who among the group you see as better candidates for that kind of action and who you recommend avoid it?

Christina See: Everything that anyone does in XR is based on their choice, so it's up to the person to decide what's best for them. Typically, people who are not citizens or green card holders or here on a visa tend to not be people who want to get arrested or should get arrested. There's also people who are in marginalized communities who don't want to be in that position, but there is a wide range of people that take part.

I should add to this that about 95% of what XR's activities are is not related to getting arrested. We say that like for every one person who does get arrested, there's about 10 people behind the scenes doing a lot of work between jail support or media work or outreach and that type of stuff.

Brian Lehrer: So not to obsess on the arrest aspect, getting arrested aspect. I'll just ask one more question about that, which is how does arrest training go? Like the New York Mag article started with, "If you're planning to be arrested, do not bring your wallet, only your ID, credit card, and some cash as part of the training." Can you elaborate on that?

Christina See: Yes. We basically just teach people the elements of what an action typically looks like, starting with what it's like to sit down and possibly block a doorway, or block a street and get them like physically doing that with other people so it becomes somewhat comfortable, and then just talking through the process of what it's like to be arrested. Just some tips about that if you do get arrested. It's more just going through what will happen so that people can make that choice for themselves.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Tom in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with Christina See from the group Extinction Rebellion? Hi, Tom.

Tom: Well, Brian, I'm thrilled to be on the air with you for the first time. Thank you for taking my call. I'm struck by the cognitive dissonance of The New York Times, on the one hand, taking fossil fuel money for advertising, and on the other hand, doing some really serious and good reporting on the issues that we're facing. I appreciate that action today.

I'm struck also by the cognitive dissonance of a small group of people putting their bodies on the line as your guest is talking about at 5:00 AM this morning or something. Get to 5:00 PM this afternoon, millions of New Yorkers will just go about their daily business as if we're not living through mass extinction events. I'd like you or perhaps your guest to reflect on that cognitive dissonance, and thanks for taking my call. Really appreciate it.

Brian Lehrer: Tom, thank you very much. Call us again. Christina.

Christina See: Yes, that is a huge part of why people are joining XR around the world because they see this cognitive dissonance, where I believe the LA Times in covering the last IPCC report from the United Nations. It said, on the front page, the world is becoming uninhabitable, page three. This massive issue, and it's like, "You have to go to page three to find out what's going to happen."

Just this element of what is happening? Why isn't the government acting like this yet? There was a thousand scientists, part of scientists' rebellion about two weeks ago that took nonviolent direct action around the world and they got very little coverage, but some of these people are the people who are writing these IPCC reports. They're the ones telling us how bad it is and how bad it's going to be and they are getting to the point where they're willing to risk arrest because they're realizing no one's paying attention.

Brian Lehrer: World at risk of ending, page three. Robbery on 23rd Street, page one. George on the Upper West Side, you're on WNYC with Christina See from Extinction Rebellion. Hi, George. George, are you there? George once, George twice. How about Chuck in Queens? Chuck, you're on WNYC. Can you hear me?

Chuck: Yes, thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Chuck, go ahead.

Chuck: I posted a link, was from the New York Post describing how an activist group is advocating flattening the tires. They give actual details on how to do it. Wedge a piece of gravel in the tire valve. Post a sign saying why you did it. I want to know if things like this is nonviolent, blocking traffic if someone has to get to a hospital, be specific about what you consider nonviolent tactics.

Brian Lehrer: Fair question. Christina.

Christina See: Sure. When blocking a road, if there was ambulance or emergency vehicles that needed to get through, there's always a plan to make that happen. A lot of the time, especially in New York City, the people routing the ambulances and emergency vehicles are aware of traffic, because we have gridlock traffic all the time in the city. As far as what nonviolence is, the definition of it, it is a lengthy discussion, because everyone has their specific idea on whether property destruction is nonviolent, and these are topics, like I mentioned before, that have come up through history.

In New York City, Extinction Rebellion does not engage in property destruction but there's also people who have used property destruction as a way to get their case into court to use it through the legal system as well. What we're seeing with XR in the UK is that when these people do go to trial, the activists are facing time in jail, the juries are actually saying that they let them off because they realize what they're doing is justified because they're actually pushing the message and getting the government to react.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting, and you hear the caller's skepticism about property destruction and so let me generalize that to a larger question, which is, how do you find the line between effective pressure through direct action and more of a political backlash against the cause, a net negative, if people see your group's plan disruptions as unsympathetic or a bigger threat to them than climate change itself, even though that would be irrational?

Christina See: Yes, it's definitely something like it's thought about before every action and people try to think through everything, and I think part of it is just really thinking about is it worth taking this action, and at the end of a day, a lot of the time, sometimes there is backlash but a lot of the time, the people who say are stopped in traffic, they actually have applauded XR and other groups who are doing civil disobedience, because they realize, just like a lot of other people, how bad climate change is going to affect us.

Brian Lehrer: If you're just joining us, my guest is Christina See, political strategy coordinator with the activist group Extinction Rebellion, which does nonviolent civil disobedience, among other things, in pursuit of policies to protect the climate, and Fred in Brownsville, you're on WNYC. Hi, Fred.

Fred: Hi, I understand that citizen's assembly is one of the demands of Extinction Rebellion, could you really explain what that means? It's a term which needs further explanation. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Citizens assemblies. Is that part of what your group does? I know you're interested in the topic of how democracy can be used to protect the climate but where would you enter Fred's question?

Christina See: Sure. Citizens' Assembly on Climate and Ecological Justice is actually our third demand and these are-- Citizen's assemblies are also referred to as civic lotteries, or policy juries because they use a lottery that is a representative sample group of the citizens of the area whether it's municipal, statewide, nationwide, and they then learn from experts and stakeholders and then deliberate with trained mediators, and then make policy recommendations.

This process has actually been used in Texas, which led to policy breakthroughs surrounding transitioning to renewable energy in a state that is known for oil production, and it was also used in Ireland to address abortion in Ireland, which is heavily Catholic. The politicians didn't want to go on record as saying that they were approving of legalized abortion and so they put it to a citizen's assembly and that group, which was representative of the people decided that they wanted it, and then that's the way that legalized abortion got passed in Ireland.

We've actually been having climate assemblies around the world. There's just actually a global assembly I think last year, and Paris at this point now has a permanent citizen's assembly to address issues. This is something that could be used very well in this country because there is political gridlock in Washington specifically and it also takes the money out of politics in many ways. There's no lobbyists donating to people within the citizen's assembly, whereas they are to our elected officials. It's a much more direct way of having people's voices heard.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting.

Christina See: Making sure voters' interests are heard.

Brian Lehrer: You or someone from your group told our producer that you'd like to talk about the notion of a mass mobilization World War II-style against climate change. Is that something you can talk about?

Christina See: Sure. I think what we saw with COVID is we changed things overnight, and that's exactly what happened during World War II. Factories went from producing cars to producing military vehicles and that type of stuff. There was a specific goal that needed to happen and the government made it happen. What we're facing with climate is we actually need systemic changes.

We are basically addicted to fossil fuels in this country, if not also globally, through both oil and gas and plastics. How do we address that in a way that is a just transition off of those products? I think that's part of what the government needs to be addressing within something like a mass mobilization, but from an XR standpoint, we're saying a citizen's assembly should have a huge part in that because you can't just force mass changes on people because as we also saw on COVID, people don't like that. Citizen's assembly is a way to help that happen.

Brian Lehrer: Nicole in San Jose is going to draw a connection between in this conversation and our reference in the previous segment to the spotted owl and the old-growth forests in the Northwest. I think, Nicole, you're on WNYC. Hello from New York.

Nicole: Hi, Brian, and also thank you so much to your guest for her clear and passionate work. I am just really appreciative, and I was just struck with how your discussion of nonviolence civil disobedience having an impact. We just saw it in the last hour when you were talking to your guest in the Associated Press that you brought up the spotted owl. I will argue you brought up the spotted owl because of the nonviolent civil disobedient protests that happened in the old-growth forest that helped to let raise that to your shared consciousness.

Brian Lehrer: That 20 years ago, and fairness, he brought it up but I said I remembered it, so yes, I definitely take your point.

Nicole: Yes, but I bet you remember it because of the-- Thank you so much for having this, and thank you to your guest for all of their work.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. Few people are calling to defend the New York Times. Chuck in Hoboken, you're on WNYC. Hi, Chuck.

Chuck: Hey. Brian, thanks for the call, taking the call, and to your guest, thank you for all of your service to our saving our humanity. Let me just say that I push back on the New York Times issue because I think it's okay to take money from fossil fuels and then use it against them. It's kind of like a carbon offset. If you're going to do good coverage and pay of quarters, then it's okay.

Brian Lehrer: All right. What do you think? I'm going to cut you short, Chuck, as we're running out of time. What do you think of that equation? It's like a carbon offset. Take their money for your advertising as long as you're doing the legitimate reporting, which you said they're doing.

Christina See: My question would be, can you legitimately report on people who are giving you money? Can you truthfully and honestly look at it and call them out when it's needed if you need their money to survive?

Brian Lehrer: One more. I'm going to get Anastasia in Norwalk in here because even though we have 30 seconds, I think she has a question you can answer and would probably like to answer. Anastasia, you're on WNYC. Real quick.

Anastasia: Hi, just wondering if you have programs or outreach specifically for children to teach them how to protest and about their rights?

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. Christina See, does Extinction Rebellion, XR, work with kids?

Christina See: Yes, there's actually a youth group specifically, but also there are children who are part of XR. I think the youngest person is seven at this point and she partakes in marches and protests, does not get arrested as far as I am aware. Yes, we do have a number of kids who straddle between XR and the youth climate strikers who strike on Fridays.

Brian Lehrer: Christina See, political strategy coordinator for Extinction Rebellion. Thanks for coming on today. I'm sure you're going a million different ways on this Earth Day and happy Earth Day to you.

Christina See: Thanks for having me.

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