Tiffany Hanssen: [MISSING 1:00]-splashy spending. Plus, remember the aftermath of Tropical Storm Ophelia that overwhelmed the city earlier this fall in September, waist-high waters, subways shut down, chaotic school drop-offs, and pickups? Well, turns out just across the river in Hoboken that Friday was a fairly normal rainy day. We'll talk about what Hoboken learned from Sandy and how the city's preparedness has helped it weather these types of storms. Lastly, the comedian Dean Obeidallah will talk about comedy's role, even when things are terrible, when terrible, painful things are happening in the world, are we still able to laugh? We'll talk with Dean about that.

First, yesterday Mayor Eric Adams announced cuts to the city's $110 billion budget that included reductions in the city's education budget and public library service. It will also bring the number of NYPD officers below 30,000 for the first time in decades. Adams said the reductions were needed because of the loss of pandemic-era aid, decreasing tax revenues, and because of the cost to the city due to the ongoing influx of migrants.

With us to talk about exactly where we'll see the cuts, what the mayor's rationale is behind them, and also maybe to look ahead at what further cuts we might expect is Laura Nahmias, a senior reporter covering New York City and state politics for Bloomberg News. Good morning, Laura. Welcome back to WNYC.

Laura Nahmias: Thank you for having me.

Tiffany Hanssen: Laura, why don't we just hear from the mayor to start? This is some of what he had to say yesterday.

Mayor Eric Adams: Every agency in the city is going to be impacted, but we're looking at the service providers and say, "How do we minimize those agencies like the delivery of food, the pantries, the other services that we know low, moderate, fixed income New Yorkers depend on it?"

Tiffany Hanssen: He said there, Laura, that every agency is going to be impacted. I'd like to just start by running down some of the headlines. There were some real attention-grabbing headlines from all of that announcement yesterday, one of them being about the NYPD. That the cuts would bring the number of NYPD officers below 30,000 from somewhere right around 33,000, down to 29,000 over two years for the first time since the '80s. Did we hear a dollar amount attached to that or was it strictly a personnel announcement?

Laura Nahmias: Well, they're saving on the NYPD budget by canceling the next five planned classes of NYPD recruits. That saves a certain amount of money per class, several hundred million dollars per class in this year, and I think even more in the next year. That's how they're achieving the targeted cuts for each agency. I think, actually the number of uniformed officers is going to go by July 2025 to its lowest level since 1993, according to data from the New York City Independent Budget Office, but that's-- [crosstalk]

Tiffany Hanssen: Sorry to interrupt. Was there a targeted dollar amount or percentage of cuts for the NYPD specifically?

Laura Nahmias: Mayor Adams had said earlier this year that he was seeking at least 5% from every city agency.

Tiffany Hanssen: That's right. You mentioned, these planned classes being skipped up five of them. Were there other areas that the mayor identified in the budget? I'm thinking we've seen new robots out, we've heard a lot of talk about drones, increased drone usage. Were those areas at all on the table, as far as you can tell?

Laura Nahmias: Not specifically. They are planning to get more savings from the NYPD budget by doing things like delaying the replacement of vehicles used by the NYPD and specifically not hiring for vacant positions in other parts of the department. They're not going to have new school safety officers, they'll not have-- [crosstalk]

Tiffany Hanssen: Yes, I want to talk about that.

Laura Nahmias: They say that they're going to get some significant savings from less than anticipated spending on salaries, and things like that.

Tiffany Hanssen: Talking about those school safety agents, eliminating a new class of 250 school safety agents is what I heard, read, and that Mayor Adams said specifically schools would be "leaning on parents." I have to imagine there's some cost associated with organizing volunteers, et cetera. I guess what we're hearing is that the cost differential there is probably where he, I don't know, saw the potential for cut, I guess. Not that we're trying to put words in the mayor's mouth, but we're really trying to understand his motivation here. I guess I'm just trying to get at the motivation for cutting those school safety agents.

Laura Nahmias: Well, I don't know that he had a specific plan in mind earlier this week when he was asked how he intended to keep the city school safe without this new class of school safety officers. He spoke about parents having to step up about some volunteerism. It didn't sound like it was a particularly very clearly articulated plan, but he tried to reiterate the fact that he would do everything in his power to keep New York City school children safe. Not that there's going to be patrols formed of parents and volunteers necessarily.

Tiffany Hanssen: Just getting back to some of what we were talking about with the NYPD, I'm sure the PBA had something to say about this, the Police Benevolent Association, the union. What have we heard from them?

Laura Nahmias: They are not happy. They think that this is a dereliction of duty. They think it's irresponsible at a time when the force is being asked to help deal with overall crime numbers that had been rising during the pandemic, although some categories of crime have been going down over the past few months, and they think that they're being asked to do more with less.

It was really notable, actually, that on the briefing call that reporters who cover City Hall were listening to yesterday with budget officials, City Hall specifically pointed out that by July 2025, the number of officers would go below 30,000 and they specifically pointed out that the number of uniformed officers would be the lowest it had been since the mid-1990s, which is a pointed argument to make or a pointed fact to note from City Hall. It seems like they were intending to evoke the comparison to a time when New York City was actually less safe.

We could speculate on the reasons for that, but I would like to note that they drew our attention to the fact that the NYPD would shrink to its lowest level since a time when New York City had far fewer, or far more felony crimes.

Tiffany Hanssen: Well, and this is from a mayor who ran on crime. "I'm going to bring down violent crime numbers in the city. We're going to tackle crime in this city."

Laura Nahmias: Yes.

Tiffany Hanssen: Any cuts to fire or sanitation that we know of?

Laura Nahmias: Yes. Some of the cuts, we're still waiting for details on them. Another sort of point of order here that may or may not be interesting to the listeners is that city hall went ahead and briefed reporters on the budget cuts yesterday without actually providing us with any documents related to the budget cuts. We were asking questions about a document that we hadn't seen yet. They're still answering questions about the way that they've articulated some of the cuts in the documents they later released yesterday.

The fire department is making some interesting cuts. I don't know exactly how I would describe it. They're intending to reduce EMS overtime spending. They are planning to achieve significant savings from enforcing city provisions that would allow them to terminate uniform staff unable to fulfill job requirements who don't have an approved reasonable accommodation. That's still awaiting more details on one, what that exactly means. They plan to improve the efficiency of their training. They plan to reduce civilian overtime spending. They're going to have fewer firefighters on shifts at several different engine companies, renegotiate their leases, and things like that.

Another thing that I think New Yorkers will be particularly interested in is the Department of Sanitation cuts. They're planning to reduce some litter basket pickup, I think specifically in the outer boroughs and I know that that's something that people are really concerned with. They had argued and agitated for more trash pickup across the city, as we've seen like rats proliferate and debris everywhere. The city is pulling that back. The city is also temporarily delaying. They say planned composting programs in, I think, the Bronx and I think in Staten Island.

Tiffany Hanssen: I do want to get to that. I would like your perspective before-- I'm going to invite listeners in here in a minute. Listeners, if you're thinking about these cuts, if you've read the headlines, we want to hear from you, 212-433 WNYC 212-433-9692. Mayor Adams said it would be "Extremely painful for New Yorkers." Is that how you're viewing it? Do you have questions about what agencies are being cut? 212-433-9692. You can also text us at that number. We want to hear from you. Laura, I would love your perspective on, and I mentioned that mayor Adams, of course, ran on tough-on-crime when he was running for office. We have a rat czar.

Both of these cuts that you were just talking about first here with the NYPD and then here in sanitation, they are going against what the mayor had long promised for New Yorkers. I'm just curious about how you're weighing what his stated objectives have been versus what we're seeing in the numbers. I know people will always say the story is in the numbers. I'm just curious your perspective on that.

Laura Nahmias: Well, I think there are two dynamics at play here. One is the fact that, for I'd say the better part of a year now, the mayor has been begging publicly the state and federal government for more financial and logistical help to deal with the increase in the number of migrants who've arrived in New York City since the spring of 2022. So far, that assistance has been, particularly at the federal level, not so forthcoming. It seems possible, and people were speculating yesterday, that some of these cuts are designed to help draw attention to the lack of federal aid for funding for the migrant crisis that the city is enduring.

The other issue is that Adams is facing some pretty significant budgetary constraints here. I think, listeners, if you can remember all the way back to the de Blasio era, de Blasio enjoyed a really remarkable economy for the city in a lot of ways. Unemployment was at historic lows and city tax revenues and revenues were growing at a really extraordinary pace. They were coming in better than expected for personal income taxes and for property taxes year after year after year. That allowed de Blasio to expand the city government, expand programs, add new initiatives, help fund Marques programs and social services.

That era came to a pretty significant halt with the pandemic. We received a lot of federal aid to help prop us up for several years that aid has been allocated. It's being spent. The other thing that's happening is that the city's property tax collections, specifically from commercial property taxes, which make up 20% of the city's overall tax revenue, 10% of that is office tax revenue. They're not going up the way that they used to. I think we all know the reason why. The offices are not, they're not full yet. They may not be, not for the foreseeable future.

The revenue is not keeping pace with the growth of expenses. Adams is facing some pretty significant budgetary constraints, and he has to find cuts somewhere. He stopped short of laying people off, which is really the most extreme measure that you can take in city government. These are significant cuts and they have real deficits that they're facing

Tiffany Hanssen: I do want to get into the weeds on some of that, particularly as it relates to the influx of migrants into the city in just a minute. I want to get back before we get too far afield because we have a lot of questions coming in about these cuts specifically. If we turn to education next, the education department budget would be cut, according to Mayor Adams, by a billion dollars, 547 million this fiscal year, 600 million next year. Tell us what areas he specifically identified. We're getting some questions about universal pre-K and specifically-

Laura Nahmias: This is another area where we're waiting for more specific details. What budget officials would say to us yesterday is that there are underutilized seats in both the three K program and the Universal pre-K program. I believe the number they used specifically was 37,000 unused seats. They're trying to-

Tiffany Hanssen: Really?

Laura Nahmias: -realign-- That's what they said. They're trying to realign the program and eliminate seats where they aren't being used. I guess is what they said, but more details are forthcoming, hopefully.

Tiffany Hanssen: Well, I'm scratching my head a little bit because Adams also said there's increased enrollment by about 1% in schools. I guess the headline there is, it's not for pre-K kids. I guess we're left to assume that.

Laura Nahmias: There's a lot of internal contradictions there in both of those, I think a lot of the increase in enrollment that was celebrated earlier this week came from the influx of some children in families of migrants who came here. That was a celebrated increase in enrollment the first time that enrollment in New York City public schools had gone up in eight years, and yet, in the same breath, in the same week, the mayor is decrying the migrant crisis. We're cutting universal pre-kindergarten and three K seats potentially, and making huge cuts to the Department of Education budget.

They haven't really reconciled those internal contradictions yet. We haven't had a chance to ask the mayor specifically about those internal contradictions. I think all the reporters in the city are looking forward to getting the opportunity to ask him about that.

Tiffany Hanssen: I want to take a question here in a minute about composting and food recycling, et cetera, et cetera. Two things first, I want to invite listeners to call us, because we know you have questions about these headlines that have been flashing around since yesterday, since Mayor Adams made this announcement about cuts to the city's budget. He said, "They would be extremely painful for New Yorkers." What questions do you have about these cuts? Are you viewing them as extremely painful for New Yorkers? Call us, 212-433 WNYC, 212-433-9692. You can also text us at that number.

Laura, one of the other pillars of the Adams campaign, or, well, maybe not the campaign, but particularly I'm thinking about last summer when he was out really touting Summer rising. That's now on the chopping block, correct?

Laura Nahmias: I think that, that in particular is one of the things that he's thinking about when he is talking about how painful the cuts are for his administration. That was something that he prioritized in his first budget, adding more seats to Summer rising, helping children stay busy and stay occupied, helping their parents in the summer months and with after school.

There are going to be some pretty significant cuts to that program. I think the number of seats is being cut, the program hours and days are being cut. Some specifics, they're scaling, scaling back the program on Fridays. The pickup times are going from 6:00 PM to 4:00 PM, things like that. It is a step backwards for what, I think, the mayor saw as a real success and something he was really proud to have announced earlier in his tenure.

Laura Nahmias: If you're just joining us, I'm talking with Laura Nahmias, senior reporter, covering New York City and state politics for Bloomberg News about the announced budget cuts yesterday. Laura, I want to bring our listeners in here. Martin in Woodside, Queens. Good morning, Martin. Welcome to The Brian Lehrer Show.

Martin: Hi. Thank you. Good morning to everybody. I'm involved with the legal system. The one issue that never gets discussed when we discuss police budgets is the tens of millions of dollars that the city pays out in connection with police misconduct, police excessive force claims, police false arrest claims. If an analysis of these numbers indicate that there's a small cadre of police officers that causes an inordinate amount of legal action, and the city traditionally has done nothing to correct their behavior or to make sure that the behavior that led to the big settlements does not happen again. Comments?

Tiffany Hanssen: Thanks for the call, Martin. Laura, I think what might be interesting here is to just think about how the Adams administration viewed the NYPD budget and where to cut it. I'm assuming, of course, he didn't mention any of what Martin was talking about. Martin's point is taken, but when you're looking at budget numbers, I just am curious if Mayor Adams gave any indication about what areas within the NYPD specifically and what areas he focused in on, aside just from the hiring freeze that you talked about. I know we--

Laura Nahmias: I think Martin's point is one that has come up repeatedly over the past, at least, decade. It's something that I think the controller's office routinely highlights and outside legal advocacy groups, legal aid, it is a huge expense for the city police misconduct lawsuits. He's right that there is a small percentage of the very large police force that is often responsible for some of these huge payouts.

Actually, I was just looking at a legal aid press release from a few months ago that the city paid out more than $50 million just between January and July of this year in lawsuits that were related to police misconduct. It is a huge expense. That's not something that I think the mayor could preemptively slash from the police budget, the funding for paying those lawsuits out. It doesn't come from the NYPD. You're right, I think referring back to what you said earlier, initiatives like robot dogs and some of the technology expenses, none of that appears to be in what the mayor is targeting for cuts.

I would also add that things like that make up a very small portion of the budget compared to the largest drivers of expenses, which are personnel-related. Cutting the future police cadet classes is potentially the simplest way to get to a large dollar figure cut.

Tiffany Hanssen: We have another question here, I think about the NYPD. Kate in Brooklyn. Good morning, Kate.

Kate: Hi, this is Kate. Glad to speak with you. In light of the recent protests in New York, I feel that every time I'm by Prospect Park West, I see hundreds of cops outside blocking Senator Schumer's place. I know it's probably a drop in the bucket in terms of the use of police in New York City. I know there are at least several on each subway platform at this time. Given that the federal government is paying for Israelis to settle and colonize land in Palestine, it does feel like New York City's position to spend money on police to protect Schumer's residents is a waste of money. I wish that that funding would instead go to the Universal pre-K programs and the education programs that he's cutting instead.

Tiffany Hanssen: Thanks for the call, Kate. Laura, I'm curious, what I think Kate is getting at here is a strategy question about how the NYPD is using its resources and whether some realignment in strategy could be taken into account when we're talking about cutting real dollars. I heard you say, at least in the FDNY, some of that is happening. We don't really understand fully what is going on because we didn't get a lot of insight into that yesterday. It does sound like there's a little bit of strategic thinking there. I'm wondering, to Kate's point, if we saw that within discussions around the NYPD and funding.

Laura Nahmias: Well, I think what Kate is specifically referring to, and I don't know what budget line the officers detailed outside of Senator Schumer's home are allocated to, but I think the issue that you might be referring to is overtime spending, which is a perennial problem for the uniform services and for anyone who's responding to emergencies in New York City. The problem is that for years, there have been promises to curb overtime spending. However, as situations crop up, there are requests from various police officers and departments and precincts to engage in overtime work, to be out on the streets at hours that they're not assigned to.

It's hard in the moment for them to say no to that. The alternative could be like potentially an emergency where no police officers respond. They have this problem every single year. Every budget cycle there's a pledge from the mayor to cut overtime spending. I've never in my time, covering city government, seen them meet their target for cutting overtime spending. Emergencies always have a way of intervening and the overtime ends up happening anyway.

Tiffany Hanssen: Laura, I want to get to another area that caused a bit of hand-wringing for some New Yorkers yesterday, and that is cuts to libraries. We'll do that in a minute as well as maybe circle back to some of what you were saying about the reasons Mayor Adams gave for making these cuts. We'll do that in a minute. Listeners, we have been talking with Laura Nahmias, senior reporter covering New York City and state politics at Bloomberg News about the budget cuts announced yesterday. We will get to more of your calls in just a minute right after we take a break. Stay with us.

It's The Brian Lehrer Show. I'm Tiffany Hanssen filling in for Brian, who is off today. We are talking budget cuts announced yesterday by Mayor Eric Adams and talking with Laura Nahmias, senior reporter covering New York City and state politics at Bloomberg News about all of the cuts that we heard discussed yesterday. Laura, I promised we would talk next about libraries. Libraries are cutting Sunday service at some locations.

Laura Nahmias: Actually, it's all of the locations that currently offer Sunday hours except for one. If you live in Q Gardens Hills, you're very lucky. That's the only branch that will retain Sunday hours. The rest of them, the hours are going away by the middle of December this year.

Tiffany Hanssen: These are hours specifically, we've talked about hiring freezes at the NYPD, the FDNY. Are there hiring freezes happening within the New York Public Library, Brooklyn Public Library, Queens public Library? What are we seeing there?

Laura Nahmias: I think the way that the cut is described in the city budget documents is as a cut to the operating subsidy. It seems that the public library systems have decided to effect that cut by cutting hours instead of cutting personnel or not filling positions. That's their plan for how to meet that target.

Tiffany Hanssen: I know I wasn't the only one who got the emails from the libraries earlier this year saying, "We're facing budget cuts." It just wasn't enough, apparently, the money that was--

Laura Nahmias: Yes, the city council was able to restore that cut in their negotiations over the budget earlier this year, and I think a lot of people were relieved about that. I know a lot of people-- the library is a real refuge for people of all ages. It's one of the loveliest parts of the city, our library system, but they were not able to survive this round of budget cuts. To be clear, the mayor is also intending to announce budget cuts in January and in April next year, so this is just the first step for all of these city agencies. It's not clear what else they're going to cut or what's left to cut and what will happen in the next few months.

Tiffany Hanssen: I want to talk about the city council role here. What role does the council play in ratifying these cuts? I know they must prove increases in any reallocation of budgetary funds, but what about cuts?

Laura Nahmias: It's a little bit technical and complicated. They don't have the ability to stop the mayor's office or the Office of Management and Budget from simply not spending money on something. Things like the vacancy reductions or not filling vacant positions, that's not something that the City Council can do anything about, but to the extent that there are changes in the city's revenue, which there have been, they've some revenues have come in better than expected.

The City Council will have to sign off on that in a vote, some time to come but they don't have as much leeway or control as they do during the regular budget finalization that happens in June of every year.

Tiffany Hanssen: I think we have a question here about this involvement from the City Council Gerard in Greenpoint. Good morning, Gerard. Welcome to The Brian Lehrer Show.

Gerard: Hi. Thanks very much. I was just reading in The Times this morning that the council speaker as well as the public advocate are suggesting that the mayor should also consider, I think, what they call common sense revenue enhancements. Just one example, I noticed that the independent budget office reported that the city has a very small tax on wine.

I'm sorry, on beer and liquor, but curiously not on wine, but it has not been adjusted for inflation in 40 years. Just by adjusting that for inflation, I think it's one or two cents per serving, and extending that to include wine, the city could raise tens of millions of dollars annually, which probably would be more than enough to keep all the libraries open on Sunday. Revenue enhancements, are those on the table?

Tiffany Hanssen: I read something from Adrian Adams yesterday. What is the line here on this?

Laura Nahmias: The interesting thing is, and I think a lot of people don't know this, New York City is so powerful and so central and important to the State of New York, and yet it has very little control over changing its own revenue sources except for the property tax. That's basically the one thing that the city can change at will.

The rest of it, and I'm pretty sure that a change in the amount of tax on consumer goods like wine and beer, and liquor is something that would have to happen at the state level. Sales tax changes, income tax changes, things like that, are things that have to be done legislatively. That is something that would have to be negotiated up in Albany when the legislative session starts again in January.

Tiffany Hanssen: I said we were going to talk about some of the reasons that Mayor Adams gave for all of these cuts, so let's do that, Laura. You mentioned a little bit about the impact that the influx of migrants into the city has had on the city's budget as relayed to us by Mayor Eric Adams. Just set up what the mayor is saying in terms of what is this influx of migrants costing the city, and how is he seeing that as a reason for all of these cuts? How is he drawing the line there?

Laura Nahmias: He actually gave two reasons for the cuts, and they're both a little bit incomplete as far as explanation [inaudible 00:33:33] migrants. The city has said that it anticipates it will have spent $12 billion to provide shelter and care for the migrants who've come to the city by July of 2025. That's an extraordinary unplanned expense, and it looks like they are on track to actually meet that number.

There have been more than 140,000 people who have come to the city since April of 2022. I think they have more than 60,000 people currently in their care. There has to be some way to pay for it, especially since, as the mayor has repeatedly pointed out, the city has gotten a little in the way of aid from the federal government and some aid from the state, although not as much as they would like.

The other reason that the mayor provided for the need to make these cuts is the expiration of extraordinary aid the city received from the federal government during COVID, which is an interesting argument, in part, because we always knew that that was one time-- It was a ton of money, but it was one-time aid that had to be expended on certain things. It was not, by any means, a permanent source of funding. They always knew that and the city budgets four years at a time, so they have known that the aid would expire and be used up all along.

Tiffany Hanssen: When we talk about, just circling back to the migrant argument that the mayor made, that the influx of migrants is costing the city, he did try to address some critics yesterday during this announcement. Let's hear a little bit of that tape.

Mayor Eric Adams: Well, you're giving asylum seekers and migrants more than what you're giving everyday New Yorkers. Untrue. They're living in hurts humanitarian relief centers on cots, getting basic services. No one is getting anything more than what New Yorkers are getting here. They're getting the minimum care that we could afford to do.

Tiffany Hanssen: Did we hear advocacy groups respond to the mayor on this yesterday?

Laura Nahmias: Yes. I think the thing that the mayor left unsaid there is that while the migrants themselves may not be getting extraordinary help or wonderfully comfortable accommodations or aid or services, in certain cases, the providers who are providing the shelter for some of the people who have arrived are receiving a significant amount of money far and above what shelter providers for other homeless populations would typically receive.

For many months, the City Council has been asking questions about the fact that the average cost per day that the city is spending on a single migrant household has risen to $394 a day. This is in part driven by some of the daily rates that the city is paying to hotels to house people. That is significantly higher than what the city spends to house and care for a homeless family in a regular shelter on a daily basis. Some of that extra money seems to be going to the providers, not the families in question.

Tiffany Hanssen: Well, to that point, Adrian Adams said, "The administration's response in providing services for asylum seekers has relied far too much on expensive emergency contracts with for-profit companies that cost the city billions of dollars." That's to your point. What I'm wondering is, and I don't know, again, if we can speculate on this, but I can hear people saying the mayor is making an unstated political move here. Is that accurate, and how much are we hearing that from folks?

Laura Nahmias: Well, I don't know specifically what you're referring to, but I think there is a question from some council members and from some advocacy groups about whether or not this budget cuts, the items that we're targeted, the specific line items and the way that the mayor has been talking about it, are intended to provoke a response from the federal government.

Tiffany Hanssen: Right, exactly my point.

Laura Nahmias: If they reduce the police budget, if there are fewer police officers, if there's less libraries, if there's more trash on the streets ahead of a reelection year for President Biden, perhaps would he be more inclined to help the city with some funding to help deal with the migrant crisis? We don't know if that's motivating these cuts in any way. As I said before, there is a real budgetary concern here. City is facing a $7 billion deficit for the fiscal year that they are going to negotiate in the coming months but there are questions about whether or not there is some politicking happening here intended to solicit more aid than what the city has gotten so far.

Tiffany Hanssen: Well, and you also mentioned we are going to hear about some more cuts coming up in January and maybe even in the spring of next year as well.

Laura Nahmias: Yes. The mayor said in September-- This was also an extraordinary thing that happened. The mayor announced two months ahead of when they typically announced the November budget modification that he was going to seek 15% of cuts over the time period from November to April of 2024, 5% this month, 5% when he rolls out an executive budget for the next fiscal year in January and an additional 5% for the budget that he will announce in April. That's an extraordinary amount to have to cut.

The city also said yesterday, budget officials told us that the anticipated deficit for the next fiscal year has increased actually. From the budget they negotiated in June, it was $5 billion in June. It's now $7 billion and there are similarly large budget deficits projected for every year after that in the financial plan. As I said previously, they don't have an extraordinary revenue source coming in far and above projections the way that they did in the past. Those are real holes that they'll have to fill and the mayor is anticipating seeking more cuts from all of the city agencies to help cover that cost.

Tiffany Hanssen: More to talk about after the first of the year for sure. Laura, I think we're going to leave it there. Laura Nahmias is a senior reporter at Bloomberg News. Thanks so much for your time today. We really appreciate it.

Laura Nahmias: Thank you for having me.

 

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