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Brigid Bergin: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Brigid Bergin, WNYC and Gothamist reporter and host of WNYC's new Sunday Politics call-in show, The People's Guide To Power, filling in for Brian today.

Earlier this year, a 15-member Commission convened to take public input as they redrew the district lines for the entire city council. Similar to the process we saw for state and federal offices, this redistricting process is being done to account for how the city's population has changed over the last decade. The latest census numbers found the city grew by more than 630,000 people and different communities protected under the federal Voting Rights Act grew by different amounts.

This process is fundamentally about power and making sure all people are represented equally at the local level. The Commission released a draft set of maps in July, which were met with some strong feelings. They held another round of public hearings and then released a second set of draft maps last week, but then something unusual happened. The Commission charged with drawing the maps voted down its own maps, creating a new wrinkle in the process.

Joining us now to explain the work that's been done and the work that lies ahead is the chair of that Commission, Dennis Walcott, who is no stranger to the idiosyncrasies of city government. He is a former City Schools Chancellor, Deputy Mayor for Mayor Michael Bloomberg, and he's also the CEO of the Queen's Public Library. Dennis, welcome back to WNYC.

Dennis Walcott: Good morning to you, Brigid. It's always a pleasure to talk to you.

Brigid Bergin: Thank you. Listeners, do you have a question about this process or about how you'd like to see your own district change, or do you live in a neighborhood that is part of more than one council district, and what's that been like? Or are you one of the thousands of people who gave feedback on this process? How did you want to see your district change? Call us at 212-433-WNYC, that's 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer.

Dennis, so let's start with the news. Last week, the Commission met on Thursday to vote on this second set of draft maps and they voted them down. What happened there? Why did the Commission's own members reject the maps?

Dennis Walcott: I think that really goes to the heart of the process that we've undertaken as far as having the Commissioners weigh in in a variety of different ways. At the hearing on Thursday, several of the Commission members who we thought were yes votes decided to vote no, and each stated their own individual reason and we respect those reasons, and that's why we are now going back to have new hearings, and those new hearings will start this Thursday.

They gave varying opinions on why they voted no. Again, we will take those into consideration. Our staff, matter of fact, right now are reaching out to the Commissioners to go more in-depth as far as some of the rationale on why they voted no and then try to factor that in as far as addressing any of those concerns.

We thought we were there, we did a really comprehensive job in community outreach and having over 10,000 people participate both online, in-person, through mails, submitting their own maps. We factored in a lot of the public hearing testimony on the preliminary draft that had been released in July into this new version, and we made a lot of changes as a result of that.

Again we have to go by the vote and the vote was not moving it to the city council, which is part of our charge for their review and feedback. We'll start this Thursday at 5:00 PM on the 28th and this will be virtual.

The beauty is we're opening it up to the public and the public will be able to look virtually. They just need to go to our website to take a look at the information of the when, but it's September 28th, this Thursday, from 5:00 to 8:00 PM, and then on Friday, September 29th, from 10:00 to 1:00 PM, 10:00 AM to 1:00 PM. Then on October 6th, we'll have a public meeting, again, virtually, to go over the discussions around the map drawing and the feedback and interaction with the Commissioners, and then, hopefully, vote in the affirmative to move it forward to the city council for their review.

Brigid Bergin: You've got a busy couple of weeks ahead of you, not that you haven't had a busy few weeks leading up to this point. Let's talk for a moment about the Commission itself. Can you explain how it's structured and who appoints the 15 members?

Dennis Walcott: By all means. The mayor appoints and the speaker of the city council appoints and also the minority leader of the city council. The minority leader, he has three appointments, the speaker, she has five appointments, and the mayor has seven appointments. I'm one of the seven appointments by the mayor. Then we all have been meeting, as you indicated, since really March of this year, going through the step-by-step process that we'll be undertaking, and then holding community hearings out in the community.

We've done two rounds of five borough tours in the community, getting feedback, both on the preliminary plan, as well as leading up to the preliminary plan. Then we've had an active website, we've had staff go out to the communities and meeting with the communities themselves. We've had a very comprehensive process of community input and outreach through local media as well as community-based papers, as well as through social media itself.

The Commission members we've had really a great dialogue with each other, laying a solid foundation, and it's been very collegial. People share their views and represent their respective communities and then coming up with the process with the staff as well as the consultants who are map makers, building rights experts on what's legally permissible and how we achieve the goal of having new maps in place that will determine the election for the city council for next year, and then moving forward.

Brigid Bergin: Dennis, Politico is reporting that an aid to Mayor Adams reached out to the seven members he appointed and told them he opposed the maps and to vote them down. As you mentioned, you were one of his appointees, did City Hall tell you to reject the latest drafts?

Dennis Walcott: The conversations I've had with a variety of people I just keep to myself, I think my vote speaks for itself. I thought that we did a comprehensive job. We took into consideration a lot of the feedback, both from the public as well as the commissioners themselves, as well as staying within the tight guidelines of the charter, voting rights issues, and all the complexities that we have.

Based on all that, I felt very certain about what I felt were the maps that reflected all those conversations thus I voted yes. I think you would have to really talk to the other commissioners as far as what their feelings were, but I think we did a very good job in laying a solid foundation for the vote that took place. Unfortunately, the vote didn't go the way that I thought it would and we expected it to.

Brigid Bergin: Backing up, this is a process that, as you mentioned, you've been leading since last spring, with public hearings leading up to the first release of a draft map in July, then you held another round of public hearings this summer in each of the five boroughs, getting even more input on this second set of draft maps, and you made some really significant adjustments to the lines compared to round one. Before we get into those specifics, can you just talk about some of the criteria the Commission needed to consider as it drew these lines?

Dennis Walcott: By all means. One, we have to follow the charter and what the charter indicates, so step-by-step procedures and timelines that we have to adhere to. Obviously, we have to follow the constitution, and one person one vote, and one of our commissioners, federal judge, is very clear and keen on reinforcing that message as well. We also, as you indicated in the lead-up to the segment talking about voting rights and what the voting rights implications are, and then there's another piece that's really in the weeds, but it's an important part of the weeds, is that we have a 5% deviation of lowest to highest population per district, and you can't go above or below that 5% range, whereas in prior Commissions and redistricting, it was a 10% deviation.

I know several people say we should have pushed it harder as far as trying to get to that 10% deviation, which gives us a little more-- they have given us a little more flexibility. In reality, we did work through the law department, we talked to the law department, but the governor signed the law back in October around the 5% deviation, and the law department interpreted that implied to the City of New York as well.

We pushed that as far as we could, and we had to stay within that 5% deviation. Those are some of the variables we had to work with, and those were important variables because each one implied something that we need to do. The other piece that I think is extremely important that you also refer to is the 630,000 new residents and those residents of who they are in the city and the population grew by 630,000 people, that's a lot of people. I've said before, this is the size of the City of Memphis.

I read a comment from someone, I forget who, that said, "Oh, we should have more councilmanic districts and the Commission to take that up." That's not part of our charge. I think that our charge is to work within the 51 council districts that we have in place now.

I think to spare the future Districting Commission some of the challenges that we have right now maybe they want to take a look at having a charter revision committee and taking a look at the number of council districts, especially based on the increase of the population. We had to stay also within the 51 districts and it was an engaging process, it was an informative process, it was a very detailed process. It was a very legal process as far as following the law and following voting rights issues.

We had to factor all that in, and the maps that we came up with last week I thought reflected that. Others felt that there needed to be more time or particular issues needed to be addressed, and so we're getting to that right now and responding to those individuals as far as those type of concerns, but I think we as a Commission really laid a solid foundation to take that next step to submit to the city council the draft plans because one other piece for doing that I think is important as well that what we ever submit to the city council, the city council has the responsibility, if it desires to use it, to submit it back to us saying that they're not happy with it, and these are the issues that they need to have addressed.

We need then to respond to that and then hold another round of public hearings to then go out to get the feedback and then come back with a new plan. All this is in the very now, especially a very compressed timeline as far as making sure we have it done in time so that way it can be submitted to the city clerk. Then whatever the new district lines are that way the city council members or those who want to be city council members have enough time for petitioning before the election in 2023.

Brigid Bergin: Right, that is an extremely compressed timeline. If you're just joining us, I'm Brigid Bergin from the WNYC in Gothamist newsroom, filling in for Brian today. We're speaking with Dennis Walcott, Chair of the New York City Districting Commission which hit a little snag last week when the Commission itself rejected its own draft maps, but they have a process to take more public input and move forward, and we have a question about that. Chris from Hell's Kitchen, welcome to WNYC. I think you have a question about public input going forward.

Chris: That's right. Thank you so much for having me. Chairman Walcott, myself and my-- [crosstalk]

Dennis Walcott: Just call me Dennis Walcott, I'm not a title person.

Chris: Yes, sir. You have to apologize, I'm also a former staff of the council so I already go that title. My caucus members in Hell's Kitchen participated in the Manhattan meeting, there was a number of written testimony placed in, there was participation in the digital form in the morning as well as in person.

My concerns and that of my neighbors now is how are we moving forward receiving public input to ensure all the work that we did as community organizers to go into that Manhattan meeting is not ignored as deliberations take place Thursday and Friday?

Dennis Walcott: That's a fantastic question and thank you for the question. One of the things we took very seriously was the input from the communities from across the city. I was going to say to Brigid earlier that I have I think permanently embedded in my brain just about every hearing that we had and some of the important points that came up. Those include feedback from the residents of Manhattan, but all five boroughs and trying to balance that also within the restrictions that we have with certain guidelines, we have to follow with voting rights, with the deviation that I referred to earlier.

For example, say Hell's Kitchen or the east side of Manhattan and other parts in Harlem, all those things were factored into our decision making and I think you'll have strong advocates of the various commissioners around what had been put in place.

Again, the responses that we heard from some of the commissioners on Thursday, some were very specific and some were just more general response on more time. We got to blend all that together and then come out with a product that we're going to reflect on in October.

I think it's important for us to really take a look at the map that we put in place on Thursday even though it wasn't approved because I think it really incorporated a lot of that feedback and it really reunited communities. I know that people in Staten Island were unhappy, but we try to minimize that because of the deviation, but at the same time everything that we do to make a change will have a domino effect on another district. We have to be very conscious of that as far as the voting right implications, the deviation implication, making sure we follow one person one vote.

I heard people talk about not picking on one borough, we're not picking on one borough. There's going to be, in a city this large with 8.8 million people feeding in 630,000 people into that 8.8 million in the existing number of 51 council districts, there's going to be some issues with people that they may not be totally satisfied with, but the reality is I thought we did a fairly balanced job in incorporating the feedback and trying to minimize the impact on any one particular borough, but we will continue to factor that in.

Brigid Bergin: Chris, thanks so much for calling, and please call us again. Let's go to Divine in the Bronx. Divine, did I pronounce your name correctly?

Divine: Yes, you did.

Brigid Bergin: Wonderful. Welcome to WNYC.

Divine: Okay, my question is, could you help us break it down? You said 360,000?

Brigid Bergin: 630,000.

Dennis Walcott: 630,000. 630.

Divine: Wait. Say it again.

Dennis Walcott: I missed one important point, then, obviously, to your question, but the 630,000 is based on the census and we didn't really say it that directly. Since the last census to this census, New York City grew by 630,000 people. We as the Commission have to reflect that type of growth and where the growth took place, and then trying to have a balance as far as what I talked about earlier with the deviation of a particular district and comparing it to the smallest and the largest, and that's part of the challenge and then where people settled, as well as where people moved.

The Asian, Hispanic communities grew, the Black and white communities got smaller, and we have to factor that in as well, but at the same time hold true to the voting rights of a particular district. Those are all the decision points that are part of the discussion with the commissioners and the mappers and drawing maps to try to fit those particular needs. I'm sorry I didn't mention census early and that's where the 630,000 people came from.

Brigid Bergin: Absolutely. Thanks so much for making that point clear. Divine, I think your question was related to understanding where some of this new population is within the city, is that correct? Do you want to ask Dennis your question?

Divine: Right. He cleared it for me. It's New York City and we got all these people, but I want to know where-- do we have a sense of where the demographics are, or are they lower-class, middle-class, upper-class people?

Dennis Walcott: Oh, it's not attached to income, it's attached to where people have settled. In various districts, and we can get some information up on our website as well, but you can see where the populations grew significantly in different areas and where it got smaller as well. We have to factor that in because you have to have that balance of deviation within each council district.

Then as indicated, say, for example-- I'm making this number up so I want to be very clear and I won't use a specific council district. Say a particular council district grew by 20,000 people and now it's over a particular threshold level that's within the deviation, so then we're going to have to move 10,000 of those individuals out of that particular council district and move them into another one. It's a constant domino until you have that leveling or that balancing within the deviation level for the particular district so they're all in alignment, and that's how it plays itself out. There are parts of Manhattan that grew tremendously, there are sections in Manhattan that didn't grow as much, and so just using Manhattan as a proxy.

Those are the types of things that we have to factor in and mappers have to consider as they work with us to develop the map lines that make those particular needs. I'll give you one in the Bronx that when we were up in the Bronx for the Bronx hearing after the preliminary draft was released, a number of people, a number of community organizers came out around District 14 and Kingsbridge Armory and they were taking us to task as far as the Kingsbridge Armory removed out of the district where it currently is located and moved into another district.

We heard that, and we got a lot of testimony from individuals about that. We really tried to factor that in as far as the maps that were released this past Thursday. Those are the types of things that we heard either directly at the public hearings or through the almost 10,000 submissions that we had in a variety of mechanisms.

Brigid Bergin: Devine, thank you so much for calling and for your question. You set me up to dive into some of the differences in these new draft maps that we saw released. Dennis, getting back to some of the specific ways the district lines were adjusted for in this draft map that is going back to the drawing board, I want to give a shout-out to my editor and colleague David Cruz on the People & Power Desk, who has been covering this.

We looked at some of those drafts, too. We noticed there are lots of changes, but some of the biggies, a proposal to fold a portion of the upper east side into a Queens District, the 26th Council District was reversed keeping it all in Queens. The second draft united Brooklyn's Latino communities and Sunset Park and Red Hook, and they were split in your first version.

There is a new Asian majority district in Brooklyn that falls mostly within the existing-- it appears the 43rd Council District. Then in the South Asian communities in Richmond Hill and South Ozone Park that are currently split into four council districts, they have been consolidated and now only split into two council districts, which, as I said, consolidates some power for the community there.

Then finally, and perhaps as you already touched on, most controversially, Staten Island's 50th Council District was drawn to include Bay Ridge in Brooklyn, the first time in 20 years that a Staten Island district has crossed the bridge into another borough. I want to talk for a moment about that. Has the borough's population increased enough to justify three seats completely in that borough?

Dennis Walcott: Well, I'll respond this way in that if we, which we had in our preliminary plan, kept it at the three, all being in Staten Island, then that would have an impact on the other boroughs as far as deviation is concerned. That was a major challenge for us. I think we felt very strongly and empathized what the residents were saying in Staten Island. I understand the implications and these are very difficult choices, but at the same time, we're looking at all five boroughs and how we work on all five boroughs.

It's not dumping on one versus another, and I understand again how people can say that, but the reality is it's not part of what we factored in, at least some of us factored in to the decision making. We took that very seriously because we heard the folks, we were at the Staten Island. They were very, very passionate about keeping all three. At the same time, we try to minimize that and we know that impacts individuals.

Again, it's a very, very, I think, challenging domino that we're putting in place as far as the pieces making sure they all fit the puzzle that they all fit. We are trying to be very conscious of that. Again, I really do want to move away from the rhetoric that we're blaming one versus the other. It's not the reality. The reality is that we're just trying to factor in the five boroughs of New York City and meet our mandate itself.

People had input into the back-and-forth discussion that went into the sliver that came out of Staten Island and crossing over into Brooklyn as far as that districting process is concerned. People had direct input as far as how we try to minimize that and not impact Staten Island.

I am very respectful of all five boroughs. At the same time, I think as you laid out in the intro to this particular discussion point, that we've made a lot of changes trying to balance out the varying needs that we had as a city and our responsibilities. The last thing we need is for something to happen where it's taken away from the Districting Commission, and then no one will be happy.

You don't need a special mass to be put in place, and our goal is to make sure we factor in the public testimony, the input from the commissioners, and then meeting the requirements from all the legal pieces that we have to follow. Then having the mappers draw the lines with our input to reflect those changes, and we'll be taking a stab at that again. That's part of our due responsibility. That's where I think we're going as a Commission.

Brigid Bergin: Dennis, I think you said words there that probably sent chills through the map making people who've been doing this work for months, special master, and that certainly is something that anyone following redistricting in New York is familiar with because that is how we ended up with our current State Senate and congressional lines, could potentially be what happens to our state assembly lines.

I hear you in saying that you don't want our city council lines to end up in a similar situation. I know you talked a little bit, in the beginning, about your next steps, but let's make it really clear for our listeners what's happening going forward. You're set to hold public hearings or public meetings talking about the mapping on Thursday and Friday of this week, and those will be virtual meetings. I assume you're doing that so the most people can participate regardless of geography, but what are you looking for on Thursday and Friday, and then what are the next steps after that?

Dennis Walcott: One of the things I think we take great pride in is the community input and the community process that we've undertaken. While the public will not be able to weigh in, they'll be able to listen in to the discussion that will take place with the commissioners and the staff, and the mappers. That will be those sessions that'll be held on the 28th of September from 5:00 PM to 8:00 PM and also on the 29th, which is Friday from 10:00 AM to 1:00 PM.

Then the public meeting for us to actually vote, we're scheduling for October 6th because we're also being respectful, obviously, of the Jewish holidays that are with us now and the Yom Kippur in October. We're trying to make sure we do that, factor in the respect for the Jewish holidays, but also meet the timeline for submission to the city council because the city council then will have up to three weeks to respond back to us as far as any concerns or they could adopt the maps as we submit to them.

That's the timeline that we have to be very conscious of, and we have to be very strict about. Again, we want to give people the opportunity to hear the dynamic of what's taking place. Then if the city council, again, as a reminder to the public, rejects it, then we have to go back for at least one public hearing. Again, depending on the time restrictions that we have because we have a mandate we have to meet as far as giving it back and certified.

I'm very serious about that, and we're very serious about that. We have to stay above the fray as far as not getting into the political dynamics because our charge is to really factor in what has taken place, the input from the public, and listening.

One of the key piece that I want to make this point very clear because, again, people may not be aware of this in that not as individual council members, but council delegations have met with staff and we've gotten feedback. Council members individually have testified at public hearings as well which is their right, they're citizens. We want their input. That's a good, important dynamic to take into consideration.

Some but not all council members took advantage and testified at the hearings or had staff who testified at the hearings, and we want that type of interaction. As chair, now using that title, it is my charge to make sure we stay above the political fray and try to make sure we go through the process.

Then someone said there wasn't substance part of this process. There was tons of substance that was part of this process. I think the commissioner should take great pride in both the substance that's been a part of this discussion, but also being very strict in adhering to a process that has allowed us to go through the various dynamics and the type of challenges we have as far as adhering to all the legal requirements to make sure we do our job properly.

Brigid Bergin: Well, thank you again so much for joining us to explain this process and the work you have ahead. We're going to leave it there for today. My guest has been New York City Districting Chair, Dennis Walcott, who has a very busy few weeks ahead of him. Thank you for joining us, Dennis.

Dennis Walcott: Thank you for having me, and have a great day.

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