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BrianLehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC and today could be a big day for police reform in New York City. New York City Council is unveiling a package of 11 separate bills. Let me list some of them for you, removing the police commissioner's final disciplinary authority. Right now, no matter what the Civilian Complaint Review Board recommends in an accused officer's case, the commissioner can overrule them that would end. Ending qualified immunity for police officers, people could sue them personally for damages for certain things.

Future police commissioners would need confirmation by city council, the mayor couldn't just appoint them as a mayor can now. Data collection on traffic stops, investigating police officers with a history of bias, and reforming the role of school safety agents so they don't carry weapons, don't wear uniforms, and they get retrained in techniques such as restorative justice. There are others too, but those six are core and can start the conversation with our next guest, New York City Council Speaker, Corey Johnson. Mr. Speaker, great that you're here again, welcome back to WNYC.

Corey Johnson: Thanks, Brian. Good morning. Thanks for having me. I hope you're well and hope you're healthy.

Brian: You too. You want to start with the big picture on what you're doing today regarding police reform?

Speaker Johnson: Sure. We put forward these bills actually, a couple of weeks ago and you mentioned some of them. This really Brian is furthering the aim of reimagining public safety in our city and trying to repair a broken relationship that's existed for a long time between police and the communities that they are supposed to serve. You mentioned some of the bills. Ending qualified immunity for police officers, we can do that locally.

The bill that you mentioned that would remove the NYPD's exclusive authority over police discipline and would allow the CCRB, the Civilian Complaint Review Board to impose discipline in cases, that actually is a resolution all that it needs to help us make that happen. Subjecting the police commissioner to the advice and consent of the city council, just like we have for the head of city planning and for the DOI Commissioner, and for the corporation counsel, that would need to be done by referendum, but we can put that on the ballot as a council.

Then, one other bill that I want to highlight Brian that you didn't mention is a bill that would create a non-police emergency response for mental health emergencies. This bill would require the health department to develop a non-police response program based on successful existing models. Denver is doing this right now with very, very significant success that the police department there is actually hailing the program, the city of Denver, put in place that puts mental health professionals first and foremost when responding to people that are dealing with mental illness and who aren't violent.

That is a flavor of some of the bills. The governor has a April 1st deadline for municipalities across the state to enact some of these, and so the council is plowing ahead. We've had two hearings in the last week on two of these bills. We have additional hearings coming up. There are 11 bills and resolutions in total.

Brian: Listeners, we can take some phone calls for New York City Council Speaker, Corey Johnson. They can be on this package of proposed police reforms or anything else, 646-435-7280 or tweet @BrianLehrer. Let me go a little further with you into some of those reforms that you listed and I listed. On removing the police Commissioner's final disciplinary authority over officers accused of misconduct and that misconduct is substantiated by the Civilian Complaint Review Board, would it be the review board that decides whether to fire a police officer or suspend the police officer or whatever? Do you think commissioners today have incentive to let bad cops' bad behavior slide?

Speaker Johnson: Well, we have seen too often in the past, Brian, that there have been recommendations by the CCRB related to instances of violations of use of force, abuse of authority, discourtesy, offensive language, and not just in the current administration, but this has gone on for years, and years and decades since the CCRB was created by Mayor Dinkins that police commissioners don't abide by it. They go against what the recommendations are. Yes, what we're calling for is the state legislature to either do it themselves or give us the authority to have the CCRB have the final say on disciplining officers that have violated their duty.

Brian: On ended qualified immunity for police officers, people could sue them personally for damages for certain things, which things and why?

Speaker Johnson: This is a bill, Brian, that really seeks accountability of the amount that any officer could be fined is capped at $25,000. This is what other municipalities have done across the country that have ended qualified immunity. Again, I think the city of Denver has done this. There is broad [inaudible 00:05:39] is an impediment to holding bad cops accountable. The way it is right now, an officer can violate someone's civil rights and be immuned from almost any kind of civil lawsuit. We think this will help build trust with communities.

There is a long list of instances. I don't have them in front of me, Brian, but we have worked with advocates and also lawyers to ensure that the different instances that were talked about make sense, are plainly clear, and we would have the authority to do under this bill. I'll give you one instance that many New Yorkers may remember. If you remember that James Blake, the former tennis pro was standing outside of Grand Central Station a few years ago, and was racially profiled and tackled by a detective who was plain clothes.

James Blake couldn't sue that officer, that officer was protected by qualified immunity. An instance like that someone like James Blake could actually sue that police officer. It's not just about the officer, it's also about people being able to go after the police department, as well, but in this instance, it would allow some accountability with individual officers that violate people's civil rights.

Brian: Did you say capped at $25,000 in damages?

Speaker Johnson: Yes. Capped with the individual officer, but no caps related to what they could get from the city or from the NYPD.

Brian: Right. I realized $25,000 is a lot for any normal person to have to pay out of pocket, but it's very little in terms of damage suits that people file in the world if there's significant harm, right?

Speaker Johnson: Most of these lawsuits, Brian, that would come forward, it would be a suit against the city and against the individual officer. The person who had been harmed would likely get a lot of money from the city if there was a finding of violating the civil rights. This also adds another layer of accountability that doesn't exist right now.

Brian: Daniel in Bay Ridge, you're on WNYC. Hi, Daniel.

Daniel: Hi, I have a question. There is no affirmative duty required under the NYPD contract of NYPD officers, they don't have an affirmative duty to protect or to serve New Yorkers. Do any of the bills that are being brought forth today have an affirmative requirement for law enforcement officers to protect and serve the citizens that pay their taxes, which in turn pay their wages?

Speaker Johnson: Daniel, thank you for that question. I don't think that's explicit in any of these bills. I think that is something I have to go back and look. I don't know exactly what happens, what the language that is used when police officers are sworn in after they graduate from the academy annually. I believe they're sworn in to serve and protect. I don't know if there is legal language in their employment contracts that exist between them and the city.

It's a good question, I'm happy to look at it. We want to make sure that is the case, and that is why we're passing, and hearing a series of bills which we think would create more accountability and goes into that vein of serving, and protecting, and having accountability in this way.

Brian: My guest is New York City Council Speaker, Corey Johnson. Speaker, I had mentioned in the intro when I was listing some of the police reforms in this package that one of them has to do with reforming the role of school safety agents, so they don't carry weapons, wear uniforms, and they would get retrained in techniques such as restorative justice. A listener tweeted that they do not currently carry weapons, so to imply that they do would be false. Did I get that wrong?

Speaker Johnson: Yes, they do not currently carry weapons, that's right. As you said, Brian, they are currently uniformed and there are divisions of the NYPD. We want to move forward and we started this last year but it is a multi-year process, especially given COVID of moving school safety out of the NYPD into the department of education and having it be centered on restorative justice models so that you can actually work with these young people and not put them in handcuffs, arrest them, criminalize them.

We think there's a better way. That's what this bill seeks to do. As part of the budget last year, there was an agreement to start the process in moving this division out of the NYPD and into the department of education.

Brian: I stand corrected on that point. If I left the impression that school safety officers currently carry weapons, correction, they do not. Listener, thank you for that correction. Do you think on your proposal that police commissioners would need confirmation by city council, do you think that people have gotten into that job who wouldn't have, or is it more about spotlighting issues as the commissioner takes office?

Speaker Johnson: I think that there have been plenty of police commissioners that did not meet the moment for the city of New York. There are many, many instances of that. Brian, it's crazy that for one of the most important, if not the most important job that a mayor hires in the city of New York, the two most important jobs are probably schools chancellor, and police commissioner given the amount of authority that both of those positions have that the department of city planning has to go through a confirmation process of the council.

The commissioner for the department of investigations has to go through a confirmation process. The corporation council and this was done by the Charter Revision Commission last year or year and a half ago, has to in the future go through a confirmation process but the police commissioner does not have to. I think it's about accountability, making sure that you can ask questions. Brian, the last two and a half weeks of the niece and Biden administration, we've seen hearing after hearing with now secretaries yelling, blinking.

Buttigieg, Austin, all of these people that run federal agencies and in New York, I think there does need to be a level of accountability to make sure that you are asking questions and getting the right person to be the police commissioner in the future. If we get it on the ballot and the voters approve it this November, for the next mayor which won't be me, but the next mayor would have to go through this confirmation process if voters approve it.

Brian: Thank you. Just buttoning up the school safety officer weapons thing. I got that from your press release on this package. I just looked at it again. The reform includes "that agents no longer make arrests, carry weapons, or mechanical restraints, or wear law enforcement uniforms". Just to be clear, that's in there, but I guess that needs a correction too.

Speaker Johnson: We'll look at it, Brian. Thank you for pointing that out.

Brian: Anthony and the East village you're on WNYC with New York City Council Speaker, Corey Johnson.

Anthony: Thank you very much, Brian forever. Corey, thank you so much for your leadership, especially this past year. We deeply appreciate it. Corey, I had a question. Danny Dromm, close friend of yours, our finance chair for the city council has a very important bill. Over a year ago, we had a public hearing in city council concerning supporting the treaty on the prohibition of nuclear weapons, which basically takes trillions of dollars, our tax dollars for this industry.

That we desperately need for things like COVID or health hcare or housing and our education et cetera. This bill has been waiting for a vote and we'd really love it if you could give us a date. Bayard Rustin, who you know very well, his birthday's coming up March 17th. This treaty just became international law on January 22nd. The world is looking to New York City, the town of wall street for this leadership. I know you can do it. I know you believe in it. We just love to hear that you are going to bring it to a vote before we come into a new council soon, and we know President Biden needs this kind of pressure.

Speaker Johnson: Thank you, Anthony, for your kind words and for bringing this up. I do support it 100%. I think one of the issues is, it becomes a little strange when the New York city council is weighing in on international issues. It could create this issue where all the time we could be asked to pass-- This is not a bill, it's a resolution. It is more symbolic and symbolic in an important way to show that we support it, but where does it end?

I personally support it, but does that mean that council members will be coming back all the time, asking the council to weigh in on different treaties, different international policies, different things that are happening around the world. In this moment of COVID, we have really been focused on what's happening here in New York City locally. I think this is no way, I totally support this and I'm glad that there is movement internationally to get it done.

I just think the question is some council members are concerned, does this set a precedent for us to keep moving on resolutions that are outside of the jurisdiction of a local legislative body? I will look at it. I'll talk to Danny Dromm.I know he feels passionately about this. I support it, but that is the reason why I think it hasn't been voted on yet. It's not because I don't support it. It's just more of a presidential issue related to the council weighing in on international matters.

Brian: Robinson in Richmond Hill. You're on WNYC with City Council Speaker, Corey Johnson. Hi, Robinson.

Robinson: Hi, Brian. Hi, Speaker Johnson. Thank you very much for taking my call today. Just as an aside before I speak. I wanted to thank you, Brian, for giving this series on West Farms and 10460. I grew up right across the river from there and to hear my neighborhood and the issues that we've struggled with for so long, now more than 30 years in a lot of cases, to hear getting coverage on the news and people getting [unintelligible 00:16:47].

Brian: Awesome. Thank you. Our latest episode in that series will be in about 10 minutes but go ahead.

Robinson: I'm excited for it. My question for Speaker Johnson. As someone who has been involved in the marches and in the process over the past year, particularly with the Stonewall protests. I have just seen a lot of violence, a lot of sexual harassment from officers against my fellow trans people and our allies. I want to hear more about how the bills currently going through the council and even the ones that we need support from Albanyfor, how they will go towards helping those who have been harassed and have cases against the police, help them actually get into the courts and get some justice.

Speaker Johnson: Thank you for that question, Robinson. Yes. The instances that we've seen over the last year, starting after the protests that were spreading all over the city and across the country after George Floyd was murdered in broad daylight was unacceptable where you had officers that were in some instances, brutalizing protestors, peaceful protestors.

There was a DOI report that came out about that. There was a law department report that came out about that, but I don't think we even needed those reports to see what we saw on social media and what reporters were reporting at these marches.

What these bills would do is it would create a greater level of accountability. It would say that instead of a police commissioner having the final say on if an officer violated someone's civil rights, it would go to an independent body that would make that determination on firing them, on other disciplinary measures that could be in place depending on the severity of the violation. That doesn't exist right now. I think one of the things that is incredibly frustrating is that many people that file cases with the CCRB who have complaints, legitimate complaints against officers, it takes a long time first to investigate the complaints.

Then in many instances, the NYPD doesn't go along with what the recommendation is that the CCRB has given after investigating the complaint. After hearing from the victim, after interviewing the police officer, after looking at video footage and other evidence, it could just be totally ignored by the NYPD and this bill would seek to get rid of that and say there would be an independent body that would have final say over these disciplinary measures.

Brian: Thank you for your call Robinson, please call us again. I know you've got to go in about five minutes. Big picture. This is a package of what might be called liberal reforms for the NYPD at a time when some of the debate among advocates is whether liberal reforms are enough, or if you need to define and shrink their footprint because dozens of liberal reforms in hundreds of cities over decades of time haven't stopped enough police violence, your reaction to that?

Speaker Johnson: I think it's an iterative process, Brian. Some of the demands that came up last spring and early summer was around getting the police out of schools, getting police out of responding to people that are mentally ill, demilitarizing the NYPD, really shrinking the footprint in that way. These bills seek to do some of those things. Now, last year we were able to cut the police overtime a number. We were able to say that we weren't going to add additional headcount for two classes that were coming up.

There was a combination of these things that were done. I think it's an ongoing process in us rethinking what public safety looks like, where we can take police response out of things that they deal with right now in society and move towards a more holistic model. I do think that there are instances of a violent crime, or you could use an instance of, I don't know, organized crime, where you would need, some level of police presence and investigation involved.

Right now we're asking, and we have for too long ask police officers to respond to homeless people. They shouldn't have to do that. It's not good to do that. To respond to people that are dealing with mental illness, to be in our schools. This is really about re-imagining what public safety looks like. These bills create a level of accountability but also seeks to shrink what police are actually working on in our city.

Brian: Finally, before you go, Mr. Speaker, can I ask, how are you are? You were going to run for mayor and then after the defund debate in council last summer, maybe the timing was coincidence. You decided not to run, announcing mental health issues that you needed to address. Were the two things related at all? Just because people care, how are you? I think people also want to know if you're going to endorse in this mayoral race.

Speaker Johnson: That's very kind of you, Brian. Asked, I really appreciate it. I am always honored to come on your show. You give the news to New Yorkers in a really thoughtful way, so thank you for asking the question. Brian, I've always been very open about my life, I'm the only openly HIV positive elected official in New York. I'm openly gay. I've talked about my struggles when I was single. I thought it was important to be honest and forthright and acknowledging that I was dealing with depression that predated the conversation around the NYPD last June.

It started before that. It's been a difficult year for New Yorkers with COVID, with our way of lives changing in so many ways. I'm feeling a lot better. I'm in talk therapy, many New Yorkers are. I'm getting the help that I need. I still miss going to city hall. I miss the normal way of life that we were used to before COVID. I'm taking care of myself. I'm going to school part-time. I'm at Columbia, part-time going at night. I never went to college. I'm a freshmen at almost 39 years old studying at Columbia.

This year has been a year of changes and first. I'm grateful to be able to have access to good health care. I'm grateful that I have a roof over my head. I'm grateful that I have a loving boyfriend and family, and I'm grateful to be able to talk about it in an open way. Hopefully de-stigmatize the issues of mental health, which so many New Yorkers have struggled with. I think current elected officials even struggle with, not just myself, but people are afraid to talk about because of a stigma attached to it.

Brian: Thank you for your passion and openness about all of that. You're going to endorse?

Speaker Johnson: Brian, I'm enjoying being solicited and wined and dined. I say dined, I mean outdoor dined by all the candidates that are running for mayor. I think there's a good field of people that are running. It's a really important election. I continue to hear from candidates and talk to them and give my advice and feedback. I really care deeply about the future of New York City. I love this city with all my heart, so I'll continue to talk to folks.

I don't know what's going to happen, but it's probably the most important mayoral election in modern times in New York City. It's really important that we hear big, bold forward-thinking proposals about what the candidates plan on doing to reinvigorate and rebuild New York City coming out of the worst crisis we've seen in over a hundred years.

Brian: You're always welcome here. Keep coming on with us until your speakership ends at the end of the year. Thank you so much.

Speaker Johnson: Brian, you're a mensch. Thanks for having me as always.

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