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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Now we'll talk about one of the main drivers of inequality in our country in a detailed new report that shines a light on it. It's a report by the New York City Council Data Team that focused on what it calls job segregation. Council studied the city government's own workforce, that's hundreds of thousands of people, so it's a big sample, and found that for every dollar of pay that white male workers get, all other employees get just 82 cents. Break it down further, and you see that Black and Latino women got paid only 68 cents for every dollar a white male got paid.

Now, here's the job segregation part that is so defining. They found that these pay disparities are not because anybody is getting paid less to do the same job, pay was the same in the same job title regardless of the worker-- that in and of itself is some progress, but the report makes clear that women and employees of color tend to be concentrated in lower paying jobs and in certain city agencies that contain those jobs, that's job segregation. Another way to say it, as the share of women of color increases in any specific job title, the pay goes down.

Let's look at some of those numbers and what the report says might be done about it, and also talk about why it's like this in the first place. Why does a social worker with a master's degree, let's say, get paid less than a software engineer with a master's degree, let's say. Why does the marketplace, and not just in city government, but in the private sector, as we know, value different jobs differently the way it does? We'll invite your calls to help report this story in a minute and suggest solutions as we talk to City Council Member Carmen De La Rosa from Upper Manhattan, Washington Heights, Inwood, Marble Hill, who is the chair of the Council's Women's Caucus. City Council recently became majority female for the first time. Council Member De La Rosa, always good to have you. Welcome back to WNYC.

Carmen De La Rosa: Thank you for having me, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: The reason that Council's Data Team studied this at all I see is because of the city's Pay Equity Law passed in 2019. Would you tell everybody first basically what the Pay Equity Act says and what it requires?

Carmen De La Rosa: Absolutely. It basically expands the definition of equal pay for equal work, and it prohibits unequal pay on the basis of a protected class for similar work. Race, gender, all of the protected classes are under the Pay Equity Law, and there is a deep history here that involves organized labor. I'm also the chair of the Civil Service and Labor Committee when CWA Local 1180 actually sued the city of New York, and the codification of the Pay Equity Law comes from their victory in that law suit. There's a deep history in the city and organized labor in trying to fix the wrongs that have existed in our city for a very long time.

Brian Lehrer: At least some progress in getting people in the same job title to be paid pretty consistently the same thing, would you say?

Carmen De La Rosa: Absolutely. There has been some progress, and I need to shout out the 11 strong, the 11 women who served in the City Council before we got the majority. Those women from the City Council in 2019 passed Local Law 18, that requires the Department of Citywide Administrative Services to actually collect data from agencies to see the relevant pay of employees and municipal workforce every year, and make that data available to the Council so that we could have the report that we're talking about today each and every year.

We now have inherited this wealth of data, and this wealth of data is informing our policy decisions so that we can begin to see even more progress. We have made some progress, except for now we're seeing the term occupational segregation, which is the main problem.

Brian Lehrer: I'm going to give the listeners a few stats from the report and ask you to tell us what they mean. Listeners, these are some really interesting numbers here. Here we go. The median salary for a New York City municipal employee is $75,000; but in the Fire Department, it's $92,000; Police Department, $85,000; Sanitation Department, $83,000; all above that $75,000 median. Those departments; fire, police, sanitation, disproportionately white and male workers.

At the other end of the spectrum, the Human Resources Administration and Department of Social Services with much more of a concentration of women and women of color, the median salary was only $54,000 a year. In a similar range, Department of Homeless Services employees got $58,000 as a median, Administration for Children's Services $60,000, the job of caseworkers, so crucial for so many families, just $47,000 a year. Before we talk about why, Council Member, anything you'd like to add as other examples?

Carmen De La Rosa: We're seeing, again, and luckily, we have now two commissioners that are heading two uniform agencies, the FDNY, Commissioner Kavanagh, and the DSNY, which is Commissioner Tisch, but we are still seeing that those agencies-

Brian Lehrer: Two women, you're saying.

Carmen De La Rosa: Two women, exactly. Even though we're seeing that women are at the helm, we're seeing that disproportionately those uniform agencies still have most of their members be men and white, so they have the least amount of diversity. This is something that is at the root of this inequity. Then we see agencies that are social service agencies, like Department of Homeless Services, and Department of Social Services, and HRA, which are actually tasked with making sure that that social safety net is intact, disproportionately staffed by women of color and people of color, and those job titles are at the very bottom of that pay scale.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, help us report this story. Are you a New York City municipal employee of any kind? Do you think you experience lower or higher pay than other city workers based on job segregation? That is women and people of color being concentrated in lower paying jobs? If so, why do you think that is, and what can be done about it? 212-443-WNYC, 433-9692. I'll expand it a little bit because even if you're not a city worker, you might be able to help report this story.

The New York City Council report this is based on is about city workers, but we know the same thing is true in the private sector. Women and people of color tend to wind up in lower paying jobs. Everyone saw it during the pandemic, with who the so-called essential workers tended to be, lower paid and disproportionately people of color, but essential because society couldn't function without them but they don't get paid like professional class workers in so many job titles. Tell us your story. Help us report this story, and let's discuss what a better, more equal system of valuing different jobs might look like. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 for the chair of the City Council Women's Caucus, Carmen De La Rosa from Upper Manhattan. 212-433-9692.

Council Member, I think this is one of the most important questions anyone could ask regarding inequality in America. Why are some jobs valued in the first place more than others? Nothing against firefighters who have vital jobs, dangerous jobs, but why does a firefighter get more than someone who works with human beings day to day as a caseworker, or in the administration for children's services, or in some other role? Do you know why?

Carmen De La Rosa: That is in the heart of this debate, why we are seeing some titles that are just seen in society as roles that should be paid at a certain level while others are sort of marginalized. In the city of New York, collective bargaining determines the pay ranges and salary bans for job titles. There are patterns that have to be adhered to when the unions come in and bargain for titles. That is a part of the conversation about how the collective bargaining process impacts salary ranges.

One of the things that we're doing in the City Council is looking at ways that we can actually help folks who are looking to be promoted, because this is about addressing the obstacles that keep people stuck in these titles that are the lowest paying titles. New Yorkers are talented. They should have the opportunities and the access to promoting up into other titles that will pay them a more competitive rate. The City Council is looking at a suite of legislation at this time through our Committee on Civil Services and Labor to focus on reforming things like the civil service exam for many public sector titles.

Brian Lehrer: Here's Blair in Manhattan who I think wants to argue that the wage disparities that we just laid out may be justified based on the risks of the job. Blair, you're on WNYC. Hello?

Blair: Good morning. Let me say, I have no relatives at all in the fire nor police department, so I'm just a tax paying citizen. I'm asking, are you suggesting that police and fire, who put their lives on the line every day [unintelligible 00:10:03] potentially should get no more pay than a clerk working in the municipal building? Those police and fire jobs are open to anyone. All you have to do is be physically able and otherwise qualified. You could be any race and any sex, and you can get those jobs instead of being safely in an air-conditioned office in the municipal building.

Brian Lehrer: How about a caseworker, Blair, who's going into troubled families trying to manage the welfare of the child, the welfare of the parents too, things like that? It's not life and death, like you say, like police and fire. It's one thing to talk about a clerk in an air-conditioned building [unintelligible 00:10:47], but other people are also on the job having major impacts on people's lives. What would you say to that? Does it all come down to the physical risk?

Blair: Well, largely, but if you want to raise the salary of all the clerical people who work for New York City, then our taxes will really be way out of line. They're already out of line. Everything has to be prioritized, and I think it's reasonable that police and fire who are at most risk should get the most money.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Blair, I appreciate your call. What would you say to Blair, Council Member?

Carmen De La Rosa: Well, I appreciate Blair's comments, and I understand that that is the notion that folks have that firefighters are rushing into the fire, police officers are rushing into danger. I think you made a great point, Brian, that so are social workers, so are frontline workers that are trying desperately to get people the help that they need. When we talk about public safety, public safety means that folks who are in poverty and are able to be uplifted through the programs that exist in our city, when people have stable housing, have stable food, have stable income, we see public safety trend for the better, so it's a collective effort.

Look, I am the chair of the Civil Service and Labor Committee. In that responsibility, I have a great relationship with our Fire Department and with our NYPD officers. In no way am I advocating for their salaries to go down. What we're advocating here and what we're looking at honestly, is that the salary of those titles that are the lowest paid should come up. Those titles should come up. Also, the diversity of our city must be reflected in those titles, both in titles of social service agencies, but also in the uniform because then we're keeping people of color in titles that are absolutely not paying a wage that is sustainable for one of the most expensive cities in the world.

Brian Lehrer: Here's an exception, by the way, that I was going to point out, but I'm going to let somebody who actually does this work point it out, an exception to the relatively high pay in the Fire Department. Steven on Staten Island, you're on WNYC. I'm so glad you called.

Steven: Hi, Brian. Longtime listener. I'm glad you guys are tackling this topic. Yes, the Councilwoman mentioned NYPD and FDNY. However, she didn't mention the third service of the 911 system, which is EMS. Pertaining to this subject, in EMS, 55% of the first responders in EMS are non-white and 24% are female. What EMS does is if you go into cardiac arrest in your home, we administer epinephrine, we intubate you, we analyze your cardiac rhythm, and we shock you. Drop for drop, the same medications, intervention per intervention, the same thing in the hospital, life or death. The first people police call when they get shot is EMS. When firefighters inhale a deadly amount of cyanide or carbon monoxide, the first people they call for is EMS. Every single man and woman in New York City needs EMS at a life-or-death scenario.

Brian Lehrer: Drum roll, the average, the median income, median salary for an EMS worker is-- I have it in front of me from the report, but Steven, do you want to say it yourself?

Steven: Starting pay for an EMT is $1,891 an hour, which is under what the new minimum wage for delivery workers is.

Brian Lehrer: I've got it at $49,000 a year. EMS is under the FDNY. Do I have that right?

Steven: Correct.

Brian Lehrer: Steven, thank you very much. This is one of the two exceptions as you know, and we've talked about it before on this show. I'm glad Steven called in. We've done a segment in the past why those jobs take precise training and they literally have life and death in their hands. As Steven was, I think, fairly describing with every stroke, every heart attack. Why do EMS workers get paid so much less than anybody else in the fire department or so much less than so many other job titles?

Carmen De La Rosa: Absolutely. To be honest, Local 2507 actually stood with us, which is the EMT's local union, stood with us on the day where we released the report. You're right, Steven, it was an oversight on my part, not to mention the EMTs and the EMS. This is one of the sections in the FDNY where we are seeing, again, occupational segregation. We are seeing that this is a workforce that is predominantly women, predominantly people of color, and is also being severely underpaid.

Brian Lehrer: It's not though but I think one of the reasons it's such a weird exception is because I believe paramedics 75% male from your report. No?

Carmen De La Rosa: Yes, but they're not as segregated as the regular brass of the FDNY. They have significant larger number of women and people of color working in the EMS and EMT. They did testify at our hearing that we held on the report, and they did give us some suggestions. It seems to me that one of the things that is at issue at heart here for the EMTs is the collective bargaining and that the pattern follows after the bargaining has happened for the regular FDNY members, then their pattern has to follow that percentage increase. Because the salaries have historically been so low, they're continuously playing catch up on salaries that will be way underpaid in this sector.

We're committed, we're actually meeting with them, and have been talking to them since the hearing to try and see what we can do to advocate for this workforce that is specially trained and that has put their lives in danger as well, and still is seeing this disparity in their pay.

Brian Lehrer: The other exception to the pattern of job categories that are more female and more women of color being paid lower than job categories in the city workforce that are more male and more white, the other, at least, partial exception that we should acknowledge is what the report calls the number of well-paid female employees in the Department of Education. That's because of teacher pay and teaching is still a predominantly female profession. Your stat on that is a median salary of $97,000 a year, which would be perhaps the highest of any city job. Why is that? Because the UFT is a strong union or for that and a mix of other reasons.

Carmen De La Rosa: Precisely because the bargaining that happens with the teachers union is one that is important that this workforce is a large workforce. If you look at the city budget, education probably is the second largest issue area of funding in our city budget. Because of the strong negotiating leverage that the UFT has, we have seen that these workers are being compensated in a way that is meaningful. If we were to extrapolate the DOE workers and from this report, we would see the disparities be a lot wider for women in our city especially.

Brian Lehrer: I see that even within the education department, there is massive pay disparity, job segregation if you want to call it that. A school aide makes only $30,000 a year. A school lunch aide, same thing. Those are not college education required or as many skills required positions, I assume, as teachers but what a disparity.

Carmen De La Rosa: Yes, the disparity is huge there as well.

Brian Lehrer: Why do-

Carmen De La Rosa: The paraprofessional-

Brian Lehrer: Yes, go ahead.

Carmen De La Rosa: -support staff.

Brian Lehrer: Why do people with-

Carmen De La Rosa: Paraprofessionals--

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead. I apologize. Go ahead, paraprofessional.

Carmen De La Rosa: No, I was just saying paraprofessionals and support staff, and again, it has to do with this pattern bargaining where they start with the largest titles and then work their way into the other titles. The lesser-paid titles, it sets the pattern for the way that the unions are negotiating the wages.

Brian Lehrer: Dominica in Manhattan, you're on WNYC with Council Member De La Rosa. Hi Dominica?

Dominica: Hi there. Thank you so much for taking my call. I was with the first caller in your discussion since I wanted to raise a distinction, at least in the private sector that seems relevant, which is between jobs that are considered a cost center versus a core job, like HR, finance versus production. In this case, it seems like social work and care, and all human side things are being valued more as a cost center and thus not really compensated for the core service of looking after people. I wondered, beyond just title increases, maybe what the Council is looking into to increase the regular wage of people who are in more of a human services sector, like those caseworkers, which [unintelligible 00:20:34] so core, and reduces the work of police and firefighters and others.

Also, maybe what is being done to work with colleges in the city and other programs to increase the supply of people in those professions since nationwide I know it's a huge shortage, I'm sure [unintelligible 00:20:51].

Brian Lehrer: Yes. That's at the core, right, Council Member? The pipeline?

Carmen De La Rosa: Absolutely. The JustPay Campaign, I want to shout them out. They are the human service workers. They actually have had a victory this year in getting a cost of living adjustment, but this is another industry that is predominantly women of color. Some of the lowest paid even while working outside of city agencies, 90% of human services workers are underpaid, some of them even qualify for food stamps, that's how low their pay is. There is definitely a need to do that. As a committee, we are looking at ways in which we can eliminate some of the obstacles.

I spoke earlier, Brian, about some of the bills that we've introduced through the committee. One of them requires DRCAS to offer career and counseling for municipal employees to advise them of their professional development and promotional opportunities. There's another one that creates a pathway towards civil service, if you are someone who is looking to move up in the civil service by taking the exams. There's going to be career counseling. We're looking at the way that promotional points are given in the exam, for example, for executives who complete certain degrees and certifications from CUNY, or a similarly accredited institution to have certain points be added to their promotional exams in the civil service system. The Council is looking at this, absolutely.

Brian Lehrer: We have a text that responds to the first caller saying, "Look, the firefighters, the police officers put their lives on the line." A listener writes, "Some risk is invisible. Working-class people living in poverty bear a lot of risk; health risks, security risk, homelessness risk, in order to make sure society runs smoothly, as seen during the pandemic. These are borne silently by them, and the social service workers who administer their needs."

To solve this, Council Member, do we have to basically solve the cycle of poverty? I heard what you were just saying about working with CUNY and other places like that, but find more ways to get more kids from low-income households tracked for better-paying adult careers, so the zip code you're born into isn't such a determinant of your future. Then we'll see this concentration of women and women of color in the lower-paying professions ease up.

Carmen De La Rosa: Absolutely. I like to say that our jobs as elected officials is putting together this invisible puzzle that connects the lives of our constituents in so many different sectors. When we look right now, we're in the budget process. We're negotiating a budget. We look at our education budget, and we looked that there are real gaps in things like early childhood education. Those are the building blocks for the educational attainment of our children.

Investing in education, making sure that we're partnering and deeply investing in things like CUNY, and certification programs, and skills training, making sure that we're working with organized labor to come into our communities and train people up, that's how you lift people up. Then once they're in agency, then finding the pathways so that the next step is clear, and is accessible. There are fees attached to certain exams. Can we eliminate some of these fees? Because if you're already making so little wages, how can you honestly set money aside to take another test to keep your career going forward?

There are so many things that we can do, and we're excited to look at the ways in which these interconnected points intersect in order to lift up New Yorkers that are living in these communities. Brian, you make such an important point. I represent our community in Inwood and Washington Heights, and we think if you overlay the COVID map and where the deaths happened in our city, and you overlay the poverty to that, and then you overlay unemployment and other data points, you see that it's concentrated in communities where poverty continues to be the number one issue.

We can't expect for families who cannot provide a basic meal for their own families to be able to navigate systems that are unclear and systematically segregate them into positions where they will not be able to provide and so it's all interconnected.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. The texts continue to come in regarding various other jobs. A teacher writes, "The last teacher contract left the paras behind the paraprofessionals, no raise. There's a movement to fix para pay." Someone else wrote, "What about traffic enforcement agents? Very underpaid, and almost exclusively people of color?" Another one continues the debate about cops and firefighters being around the top of the municipal pay ladder. A listener writes, "Their jobs are the most crucial, most dangerous, and have the most demanding physical requirements," so that debate goes on.

I see and I want you to promise to come back when you have the results of this because I see one of the recommendations in your report is for Council to do what's called a comparable worth analysis. When you get that done, I hope you'll come back and talk about what you've determined. We heard some of the contentiousness about what does have comparable worth to what between some of the colors and some of the texters. Obviously, this crucial conversation about who gets paid what goes on. Council Member Carmen De La Rosa, who represents Upper Manhattan and chairs the Council's Women's Caucus, thank you for sharing this report on, as you call it, job segregation with us.

Carmen De La Rosa: Thank you so much for having me and I'll absolutely come back. Thank you.

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