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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer, on WNYC. By the way, I mentioned earlier that we might have senator Gillibrand on the show tomorrow, that is now confirmed. She'll be our first cast at ten o'clock. Now here's one way that the national debate over immigration and people seeking political asylum is moving from border states like Texas and Arizona to here in New York City. It seems to be a political strategy by some Southern Republican governors. According to Mayor Adams, the New York City homeless shelter system has seen a recent influx of thousands of asylum seekers who the mayor says have been sent here by the governors of Texas and Arizona.

The governors deny this and say, yes, they're doing that but they're only busing asylum detainees to Washington DC to make a point to the Biden administration. Mayor Adams on July 19th said this.

Mayor Adams: We are a right-to-shelter city, and we welcome people during difficult times and we have been in close communication with the White House. This administration has been a great partner with us on a number of issues. Let's not leave out Arkansas in Texas and other municipalities. They are sending people to New York. If New York is willing to show its humanitarian outreach and compassion, then we need to get the resources to go with it. We have close to 2,500 in the last probably six to seven weeks that are here.

We already had an overburdened shelter system, and so we need not only federal government, but we need some of those states that have been giving people one-way tickets. We need them to understand that this must be a partnership in this country to deal with those who are coming here seeking refuge or asylum. New York is going to do its share, but we have an overburdened shelter system now.

Brian Lehrer: Mayor Adams on July 19th. That of course is just one homelessness issue facing the city, the resumption of evictions this year after the pandemic moratorium expired is another. So is the rise in crime and the feeling that many non-homeless people have of increasingly prevalent encampments or unhoused individuals in their neighborhoods or on their subway rides and people getting more threatening in their behavior, or at least that's the perception. With some politicians and media outlets trying to center that perception, and of course, the new mayor himself promising to get more unhoused people into shelters or housing, both for their own sake and for the perceived quality of life of others.

Perhaps no reporter in the city has done more laser-focused coverage of homelessness then David Brand, senior reporter for City Limits. He joins us now to assess the state of homelessness in New York, seven months into the Adams administration, and to talk about this Texas and Arizona sending them here allegation. David, thanks for coming on. Welcome back to WNYC.

David Brand: Thanks for having me, Brian, glad to be here.

Brian Lehrer: Can we take this Texas Arizona issue first? In the clip, the mayor said Texas and Arkansas, he may have just misspoken because he said Arizona at other times, or maybe it's Arkansas too. [chuckles] They're down there also and have a Republican governor. Are the New York City homeless shelters seeing an influx of people who had recently arrived at the Texas and Arizona borders seeking political asylum from countries in Latin America?

David Brand: Yes. I think there's two different issues there. He did mean Arizona. He says Texas and Arizona's governors are deliberately busing people to New York City. That doesn't appear to be true. Both of those governors, Greg Abbott, Doug Ducey are quick to brag about this political stunt of busing asylum seekers and other recently arrived immigrants to DC. It doesn't appear that they are actually doing that to New York City. That's one facet of that, and yet there are a sizeable number of recently arrived immigrants, including asylum seekers who are entering shelters.

This is something I started hearing from shelter administrators, shelter staffers, back in, I guess, June. At the time, it wasn't yet on the city's radar, or at least they said they hadn't really noticed that. I guess it became clear and clear to them as the weeks went by and they have cited this figure 4,000 asylum seekers and other recently arrived immigrants entering the shelter system.

Brian Lehrer: Do you have real numbers? Did you just say 4,000? The mayor had said over 3000. Do you have real numbers? Is it knowable?

David Brand: He is now saying 4,000, and so they just requested or he just issued an emergency declaration to bypass some of the usual contracting and procurement processes so that they can begin to open more shelter space. They are saying to house more of the asylum seekers who are entering. In a letter to the city controller, the DSS, Department of Social Services Commissioner said that there were 4,000 and that was perhaps a conservative estimate based on the numbers they're seeing.

There's a lot going on here. There's definitely a significant number of recently arrived immigrants entering the shelter system. That doesn't mean all of them just crossed the border a week ago and arrived in New York city with nowhere else to go. Some of the people we've talked to, my colleague, Daniel Parra Mahia over at City Limits and I have talked to people who came here as asylum seekers or crossed the border without legal status, found housing. Now because of economic reasons, or because of reasons of harassment, turned to the shelter system in recent weeks or months. There was a news report in the city recently with the same findings that a lot of the immigrants they talked to weren't just recent board crossers, but people who had housing and because of economic reasons, overcrowding reasons entered the shelter system.

4,000's a big number. I think some people are skeptical about if it's accurate.

Brian Lehrer: If it is a big number, any big number, do your sources tell you why this would be happening now? It's not like it's a new thing. The country has been talking for years and years and years about many asylum seekers coming across the border largely from some of the most troubled central American countries and other places south of the border. All of a sudden, a larger percentage of them or a larger number of them are coming to New York.

David Brand: Federal policy recently changed to open the border to more people seeking asylum and so there are definitely more people who are coming into the country. I think that is the main reason and that's the justification that those governors and those conservative governors in the border states are using for busing asylum seekers and other recently arrived immigrants to DC. They're saying, "Well, alright, Biden, you want to open the borders? Here's the consequence."

That's actually helpful to a lot of people who are coming into the country because their final destinations are closer to DC. There was a report on morning edition I heard this morning talking about that very thing. Political stunt, whatever, but in a way, it could be helpful for people.

Brian Lehrer: Before I've even given out the phone number to our listeners for this segment, somebody's calling in with a personal experience connected to this issue I think. Let's talk to Tiffany in Brooklyn. Tiffany, you're on WNYC. Thank you so much for calling in.

Tiffany: Hi. Can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: I can hear you.

Tiffany: Okay, fantastic. I'm a long-time listener, a first-time caller. I'm sitting in an emergency women's shelter in Brooklyn. I've been through the homeless institution for the last six or eight months. My experience is we've had at least here at this shelter, an increased, massively increased influx of immigrants and women that are in crisis. Regrettably, I can't speak to a lot of them, I don't speak their language, but I'm the only white girl in this place, and it's fantastic that we have this service. By and large, the staff is very good.

A lot of times we're treated like inmates. A lot of conflict with the security, they confiscate your belongings with no notice. I'm just voicing my opinion that it's a difficult situation. I called the mayor's office about 24 hours ago to complain about the homeless situation in New York City. There's just not many options, especially for women. There's very few shelters. This is one of the only ones. The other one is in the Bronx. We're full, the beds are full.

Brian Lehrer: What do you think the immigrant women in particular and, of course, you can talk about any women at that shelter, but the immigrant women in particular, what do they need from the city that they may not be getting if you call the Adams administration?

Tiffany: First of all, there's a language barrier. That's difficult and they're all in crisis. They're trying to get their passports or their immigration status passed. They have nowhere else to go. They arrive here in trauma. We all have our own PTSD, but it's difficult to navigate the system intelligently when you're going through a lot of trauma, even with the security staff just stripping the beds and confiscating your stuff unknowingly. You feel a lot like an inmate. It's very difficult.

Brian Lehrer: Are some of the asylum seekers actually inmates? Because I think the status for some of them in the south, and David, I'm going to ask you about this too, is detention while their asylum claims are being processed while the government decides whether they can stay in this country or not? Is that sheltered to some degree in Brooklyn, Tiffany being run like a detention center for the women? They don't have the right even to walk out if they want to?

Tiffany: It's not that they don't have the right to walk out. Anybody can walk out at any time. That's not the point. The point is--

Brian Lehrer: They don't have the means.

Tiffany: The lingo is called you have legals. If you're a victim of domestic violence, for instance, you've lost your children or they're here and they have no immigration status, then you're illegal. There's not the staff to deal with that, let alone your medical issues or any psychological issues. They're not staffed here to equip with that. I think there's almost, I don't know, 175 women in this shelter. My estimate. I've been here a long time, but it's a staffing issue. There's a lot of issues with the homeless that governor Adams has claimed he will deal with. I don't see it. I don't see anything coming.

Brian Lehrer: Tiffany, thank you very much for that report from the front. Please call us again. Listeners, anyone else connected to this issue? 212-433-WNYC. Help us report the story of homelessness in New York, seven months into Eric Adams' mayoralty. Are you an unhoused new Yorker being served in a new way by this mayor or feeling pressure on you from him in any way? 212-433-WNYC. Are you someone with housing seeing more or fewer homeless people sleeping in your neighborhood or on your subway commute or whatever? 212-433-9692.

Are you someone who works with asylum seekers or in the shelter system generally? Does it look to you like Republicans from border states are trying to overwhelm New York shelter system by sending people here to make a political point? Who is coming and what else do they need besides what we just heard from Tiffany or anything else relevant for David Brand who covers homelessness for City Limits? 212-433-WNYC 212-433-9692 or tweet @Brian Lehrer. David, that was some call we just got from Tiffany. What were you thinking?

David Brand: There was a lot of insight in that call and a lot of information, and I hope that Tiffany if you're still listening, send me an email. I'm at david@citylimits.org and would love to get in touch. She said a couple of things there though that stuck out like that criticism of all of the rules in the shelter system and how long she has been in the shelter system. That is really something that I think this administration has acknowledged and that they are trying to move people out as fast as possible.

Yet there's a lot of obstacles for people who are in a shelter to move into permanent housing with, city-issued housing vouchers, that is probably the best tool. There are so many hurdles. The process is so long that it forces people to stay in the shelter for longer than they should. There's also landlords who are not willing to accept the vouchers in the first place, so another obstacle there. I think that I would definitely be interested in learning more about where Tiffany's staying, and I hope that she does get in touch and some other people who are having this experience get in touch. One thing though, I want to mention about the-

Brian Lehrer: By the way, she's interested. We were able to get her contact information. We'll set you up.

David Brand: Thank you. I think when you talk about asylum seekers entering the shelter system, that's no doubt true, but it gets to, I think something that's a little dangerous, and that's thinking that this is something that has always affected New York City shelter system. There's this concept of the magnet theory, I think made most famous when Mike Bloomberg, when he was mayor said, "Anyone can land at JFK, get in their limousine, and go to a shelter intake and we'd have to accept them into a shelter." That's extremely bad faith argument. The numbers don't bear that out historically.

It's just a small fraction of people who enter the New York City Department of Homeless Services Shelter System from outside of New York City. I've got these records through foil requests before, and it's like 3%, 6%. This is an anomaly. It also shows the power of New York City's social safety net, but also the need for more resources. Tiffany mentioned translation services for immigrants. People coming to the US don't have access to benefits or entitlements in most cases. They're not going to have food stamps.

They're not going to be able to get food, the most basic need. It's going to be harder to move out into permanent housing because they won't have access to housing vouchers, housing subsidies. These are definitely needed and not necessarily needs that the city homeless shelter system is equipped for and why there's going to be more organizations that have to be involved that focus on serving immigrants and also support from the federal government.

Brian Lehrer: Krista in lower Manhattan. You're on WNYC with David brand from City Limits. Hi Krista.

Krista: Hi, thank you for having me. I really want to echo what's been said so far on the call that New York City, really, this is an opportune time again, to reiterate how New York City is a welcoming community. It always has been. This issue that's come up that really indicates the complete dysfunction of the immigration system as it stands right now. A longstanding need for services has been brought up. These are not new issues. It's being presented as some crisis, but this has been a longstanding need for complete infrastructure for newcomers in this city.

I really would hope that we disengage from this political rhetoric and really look at what the issues are and start investing in those services as the caller mentioned from the shelter system. Again it's been brought up, there are critical needs for this community that have been longstanding that really need to be brought to the fore.

Brian Lehrer: Krista, the clip that we played of the mayor included him asking Washington for more resources, since this is a federal issue, at least as it pertains to the immigrants or the asylum seekers coming here. I see you work in the immigrant justice sector if I have that right. Do you know if there's been a response from the Biden administration, or what do you think the federal role is here?

Krista: I think immigration and especially integration has always been a partnership between the federal government, as well as the welcoming communities. The best cities and New York City has always been at the top of that list, really do try to create these partnerships. Again, the laws are federal, so that does create a bit of an issue, but in terms of the welcome and how we can push it through, New York City has an incredible role to play.

There is a lot that this administration needs to do. There's quite honestly, quite a lot of clean-up from the past administration that created incredible backlogs in the courts, incredible difficulties, and hurdles for people pursuing their right to legal status and asylum. It is a very complicated and complex issue and the need for legal services. As you mentioned, I'm with the Immigrant Justice Corps. We train new lawyers and community advocates to provide those services in the community. We see this on the ground day to day. People are in desperate need, they are fleeing for their lives. I think New York City needs to step up and really be there for them.

Brian Lehrer: Krista, thank you so much for your call. We really appreciate it. David, I want to touch on some of the other issues that you report on, other issues around unhoused people in New York, seven months into the Adams administration. You recently reported in City Limits that since June 1st, the department of homeless services shelter population has written by about 2000 people as evictions increase, rents sour, and people receiving rental assistance vouchers struggle to use them to secure a permanent housing. I know some landlords don't take the vouchers, even though they're as good as cash, but all those categories.

In addition to the asylum seekers, are we seeing the rising rents in the city forcing more people into shelters this year?

David Brand: Yes, definitely. People are entering the shelter system mostly for economic reasons. The rent is too high. Right now it's higher than it's ever been. That's affecting people I think down the economic chain and people who are already unstably housed who are facing rent increases or were barely hanging on before, now eviction protections have ended, are at risk of homelessness. Some are being evicted, others are leaving voluntarily. Others all have been sharing space with family or friends or other associates. That's not working anymore so they are turning to the shelter system.

Brian Lehrer: You have a homelessness tracker at City Limits that recently got some love in The New Yorker. Some of our listeners may have seen that, including mentioning you by name. What would your homeless tracker headline for the first seven months of the Adams administration be?

David Brand: Family homelessness is on the rise after decreasing pretty significantly during the eviction protection era of COVID. Total homelessness is on the rise, and we're going to need I think stronger interventions to ensure people are getting into housing and staying in housing.

Brian Lehrer: Does the Adams administration have policies or seem to be developing policies to meet the moment?

David Brand: Yes. I think the first step is acknowledging there's a major problem. One of those major problems has been the interventions that exists aren't strong enough. Continuing to prioritize housing vouchers, and also acknowledging where those vouchers could be made more efficient, and some of the bureaucratic obstacles that take a long time for the city to process these housing vouchers and applications, even after a landlord says, "Yes, I'll accept this tenant." Then it can take months until they actually move in. That could be lost income for the property owner, can make people less inclined to take them in the future.

Addressing some of that stuff has been a priority and a priority in the city's housing plan that was released a couple of months ago. Same thing when it comes to supportive housing. There's about 25,000 units of supportive housing in New York City. 10% were vacant at the beginning of Adam's term in January, and there's really no reason for that. That is just apartments specifically for people who have experienced homelessness with other special needs, like mental illness that were just vacant. Streamlining moves into supportive housing has been a priority.

I think some advocates and people serving homeless New Yorkers and homeless New Yorkers stuck in shelters themselves would say it's not going fast enough, but they have made progress there.

Brian Lehrer: Amanda in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Amanda. Thank you for calling in.

Amanda: Hi, Brian. Thank you for taking my call. Again, it's nice to speak with you, and it's nice to speak with your guest. I was calling because I have a very specific homelessness situation. I was actually made homeless by the city. They vacated me from an apartment that I was in. I called in a violation for black mold, and for lack of heat. When they came and did an inspection, the city found a host of other violations, both in the apartment and the building that I was unaware of that they--

Brian Lehrer: Oops, did we lose you? The line dropped off. Amanda, call us back. We'll put you right back on if you can get through. Let's in this case, though, go to Eric on the Lower East Side, who I think also has a personal story. Eric, you're on WNYC. Hi there.

Eric: Good morning. Hello. Eric Corbetts Black on YouTube. I just wanted to say that I was homeless my whole life, my whole life. I'm 60 years old this September 3rd. I got nine years ago [unintelligible 00:24:15] Riverside met me and they said they were going to give me my own place with my own key, and I had a dog. I ended up getting off the street. I made a promise to myself, if I'm actually going to have my own place with a key when I've been homeless my whole life sleeping on the Upper West Side, I'm going to quit the drugs.

I quit the drugs, I got cleaned up 10 years ago. I've been sober ever since 10 years ago. I just want to say I want everybody to know the truth that Breaking Ground who took me off the street and opened up their doors to give me my own room with my dog who is dead now. I recorded that song black after my dog died. Let me just say one thing. They have places to put a homeless person, but the thing is, they do nothing of the in between to help you keep the place, and it's like a revolving door. Do you know the building I live on on the Lower East Side, which is run by Breaking Ground is drug infested?

They block the way to get into the building, and they block it to get out. They bring motorcycles in the foyer where they're not supposed to be. It's running crazy. The people that work here, they're just as guilty. I asked for an air conditioner two weeks ago, and I still haven't got one.

Brian Lehrer: It's a specific charge of being drug infested against a specific provider that of course, we can't verify. We could send a reporter out to verify it, but we can't take it as fact from a caller serious charge. Interesting that you put it out there, Eric. An example certainly, David of the complexity of people situations and the core issue that he raises there of the thing that people need not just being a roof over their heads always, but ways to maintain stability in those places.

It goes to what you were saying a minute ago about some of the supportive housing programs where people get services as well as a roof, if they have drug problems, if they have mental illness problems, all of that in the Adams administration. Trying to expand that, I know a lot of people say, not enough, but he points to a very core issue there. Amanda in Manhattan is back on the line. I want to let her finish her story. Amanda, you're back on WNYC. Sorry, for whatever happened there.

Amanda: Oh, I'm sorry too. It might have dropped on my end. I'm not sure where I dropped out. I don't want to repeat for the sake of time.

Brian Lehrer: You had a vacate order, you had to vacate your apartment, apparently after the city found a lot of violations there by your landlord, and this made you homeless rather than to rent somewhere else?

Amanda: Yes. I must have dropped off on the biggest. The biggest violation that they found was that unbeknownst to me, my apartment was completely illegal. My landlord had lied to me about it being registered with the city and it being on the up and up and up to code, et cetera. I had unknowingly put my life in danger the entire time that I was there because there were so many hazardous conditions on top of the black mold that I'm now seeing six different doctors for and in court over. I was vacated. I didn't have access to my belongings for over two months.

I was in emergency housing through the Red Cross and then transferred to a city caseworker who one evening when I was in the courthouse filing paperwork, called me and told me that I was now going to go into the shelter system and my cat would have to go to the ASPCA, which was very traumatic for me.

Brian Lehrer: Are you in a shelter now?

Amanda: I'm not. That's part of the thing that I wanted to call about. I have been able to keep myself out of the shelter system and give someone who is already on the street, though, I'm in danger of being on the street that room and able to keep my cat by going from pet sitting opportunities and surfing on people's couches. When you have not completely entered the shelter system, a lot of the nonprofits won't help you because you haven't technically spent a night in the shelter even though you're in danger of being homeless.

It's really problematic that under the current systems, there are so many governmental agencies that don't talk to each other and so many nonprofits that can only do so much because they have all the governmental red tape.

Brian Lehrer: Amanda, I'm going to leave it there because we're running out of time in the segment, but thank you for your story. I think her central point, David, and tell me if your reporting on homelessness backs this up, that unless you're already in a shelter, as opposed to being right at the line of that risk at being forced into a shelter, there aren't the agencies to serve you.

David Brand: That's definitely an issue and I think in recent years has been even worse. I think there's been more efforts, especially during COVID to try to reach people who are on the street or who are at risk of becoming homeless, and making it easier to access services and access interventions, but that is definitely a problem.

Brian Lehrer: As we run out of time, we've spent all our time on some of these issues that pertain to the shelters with the asylum seekers coming and things that some of our callers have raised. Just give me one quick word on street homelessness. One reporter I know told us there seemed to their eye, noticeably fewer apparently homeless people on the subways recently, but that's anecdotal. Do you have any reporting to back up that observation or as it pertains to the streets?

David Brand: I don't have any hard data on that. I think I've also noticed that, but we also see traditionally fewer people underground during the summertime when it is warmer. It could be a combination of some of these outreach efforts, but also, maybe even more likely, it's just warmer and so people don't need to take refuge in the subways if they're staying in public spaces.

Brian Lehrer: David Brand reports on homelessness for City Limits. Thanks a lot, David. Keep coming on with us.

David Brand: Thanks for having me, Brian.

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