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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning everyone. Let's talk about two parks, maybe three, in Manhattan and what Mayor de Blasio is saying about them. He announced yesterday that Central Park will host a big concert in August with top name artists and tens of thousands of people welcome to crowd together in a reopening event to be called New York's Homecoming. Here's the mayor on that yesterday.

Mayor de Blasio: We have a big announcement about a city-wide celebration of New York City, a city-wide moment to declare that New York City is back, a homecoming for New York City, where New Yorkers come out together to celebrate and support our city, where folks from all over the metropolitan region come back to their roots in this city.

Brian Lehrer: That's about Central Park, and that will be one-afternoon event, but 50 blocks or so downtown, a 10:00 PM curfew is in effect in Washington Square Park and Tompkins Square Park on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday nights aimed at stemming late night parties that those people perceive as that same reopening celebration. Problem is there's also drug use and crime nearby.

This past Saturday night, according to multiple media reports, the NYPD arrested 23 people in Washington Square Park. The NYPD says eight police officers were injured. The Daily News says in one incident, a protestor is seen throwing a punch at a cop. The cop quickly responds by pulling out a can of pepper spray and macing the crowd. In another incident, the report says police can be seen dragging park goers in handcuffs. They quote an NYU grad student at the park an hour before the clash saying the assembly of police officers in riot gear was intense and the student tweeting that, "The intention to use excessive force was palpable."

The New York Times reports that videos taken at the park before the officers cleared it showed dozens of people milling around in what appeared to be a relatively calm scene. Here's the mayor though on what happened there, the mayor also speaking yesterday.

Mayor de Blasio: When you're talking about parks, for example, in residential communities, places where we've seen some consistent problems, getting ahead of those problems, having an earlier closing time, being smart about it, I think is the thing we do now at this moment in history to get through some of the challenges we're facing.

Brian Lehrer: Again, the mayor yesterday. Several mayoral candidates have criticized the police response in Washington Square Park. Gothamist Jake Offenhartz has a bigger picture take on all this. He reports it after a year in which some quality of life concerns took a back seat. The NYPD now appears to be cracking down on park activity, including impromptu gatherings with DJs and other music that served as a lifeline for many in the last year.

In the case of the Washington Square Park area, he reports that some nearby residents have blamed the rowdy parties and long-running drug market in the park for the uptake and assaults and robberies in the surrounding precinct. NY1 quotes people on both sides of the question, two, a neighbor saying the park is no longer a place for children, but another saying, "I feel like there's no need for a curfew here."

Here we are at another transitional moment in reopening the city, right? No one wants violent crime in their neighborhood, and no one wants violent police raids in their neighborhood. A listener to the show tweeted yesterday, "On Washington Square Park raid, I disagree with the riot gear raid, and I also don't want people smoking crack in the park. Are you going to have any guests this week to discuss suggestions on how to immediately help the situation without NYPD?" from a listener's tweet. Listeners, what is the solution?

In Greenwich Village and elsewhere, as rising crime and rising distrust of the police are both real as is the desire to reopen by going out to public space, which of course has been so important as outdoor space during the pandemic, Gothamist reporter Jake Offenhartz joins us now. His article is called As NYPD Sets Park Curfews, A Battle For Public Space Is Brewing In Manhattan. Hey, Jake. Welcome back to the show.

Jake Offenhartz: Hey, Brian. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, help us report this story. If you live near Washington Square or Tompkins Square Park, or any other park where there may be conflict between openness and rowdiness and perhaps involving police being seen as helpful or too intense or violent, call in and describe your experiences or what you see or what you know. 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280.

Who can propose something to heed the call of our listener who tweeted? Again, they wrote, "I disagree with the riot gear raid, and I also don't want people smoking crack in the park. Are you going to have any guests this week to discuss suggestions on how to immediately help the situation without NYPD?" Listeners, maybe you are one of those guests, 646-435-7280.

Jake, let me start on politics. You reported that the Saturday night police response drew criticism from multiple mayoral candidates. Who said what about that?

Jake Offenhartz: We saw Maya Wiley come out and speak about this pretty quickly, and this became a mayoral race issue pretty fast. We also saw, not a mayoral candidate but Ocasio-Cortez. This is coming in the context of a lot of talk in the mayoral race about crime and about policing and about the best way to handle this. This just reignited that discussion on policing and riot gear and how that makes New Yorkers feel versus what you're talking about, which is also some rising concerns about crime that we're seeing.

Brian Lehrer: Here's that AOC tweet. I have it. "It will always be wild to me that even members of my own party denounce us as extreme for saying this does not make anyone feel safer or be safer, and contributes to precipitating violence." That was AOC's tweet. Is it clear who she was referring to there, members of her own party?

Jake Offenhartz: I don't know specifically who she was referring to there, but I have some guesses that it's more centrist members of Congress and people who for the last year have been talking about this defund the police debate and whether that is a good or bad thing for the Democratic Party.

Brian Lehrer: Maybe the mayor. You heard the clip that we played, which you also quoted in your piece, where he's basically backing up. It sounded like 100% what the police did.

Jake Offenhartz: I think that that's also a possibility. I wonder what the mayor would say about that. You should probably ask him.

Brian Lehrer: [chuckles] I may get the opportunity on Friday.

Jake Offenhartz: Yes. [laughs]

Brian Lehrer: You also report that on Sunday night, the next night, a small contingent of activists gathered to confront the NYPD at curfew, but the cops never showed up. After they were that intense on Saturday night, why didn't they try to enforce the curfew at all on Sunday night?

Jake Offenhartz: I asked the NYPD about this a few times, and I got a response last night. They said the response reflected a marked improvement to the disruptive conduct in the park, and highlights the department's flexibility to dynamic circumstances as they unfold. I also spoke to a lot of people who think that they may have overstepped on Saturday, and there was a lot of press there on Sunday waiting to see what would happen, and they were worried about how they were going to come off looking.

We heard the mayor defend the police yesterday. I've also spoken to people in the mayor's office who were shocked by this and said that having riot cops clear out the park on Saturday night is not the best way to go here. I will say though just because there were no cops in the park on Sunday night does not mean that there were not any cops around. I saw several lines of police cruisers and I spoke to some of the officers late Sunday night. They said that they were assuming that they would go in again and they never got the call, and they weren't exactly sure what was going on there.

Another interesting thing hearing from the police about what is actually causing this, what is leading to this, I've heard some different answers. I haven't heard much about drug use. I know there are neighbors who are fed up with people using drugs in the park. The response I've heard from police is that they're worried about "riots" similar to what happened last summer, and they're trying to nip it in the bud. I guess they are seeing people congregating and it is maybe bringing up fears of last summer. I don't know if that makes total sense or that's what we're hearing from the mayor but, on the ground, I've heard that now from more than one police officer.

Brian Lehrer: Well, if that's true, that would be quite early-stage preemption, because none of the reporting from any of these news organizations seems to indicate that a riot was anywhere near close to happening. Along those lines, the mayor's quote also struck me as having a ring of preemption to it, right? That clip we played with the mayor yesterday getting ahead of constituent's problems that they've had by having an earlier curfew or a consistent problem, sorry. Getting ahead of consistent problems they've had by having an earlier curfew is the thing to do.

Though the problem's pre-existed, there's also a bit of a preemption there, rather than just responding to problems when they do break out, preempt the problems by just shutting down the park earlier.

Jake Offenhartz: Exactly, so this is pre-emptive. Also what I thought was pretty interesting yesterday is the mayor didn't seem to have a problem with the NYPD deciding to do this of their own volition, without talking to City Hall or the Local Council Member first, and so we did see some announcements with Washington Square Park. Over at Tompkins, they shut the park hours early this weekend. They had multiple police officers at all nine entrance to the park, and there was no public notice beforehand. This was just a decision the police made.

I can't think of a recent time that that's happened. The mayor's response to that was that he'd supported them in doing that. They have his blessing to make that decision when they feel it's necessary.

Brian Lehrer: The complaint of West Village residents that you cite, the assaults and robberies rising in the area that they blame on the increasing rowdiness and long-running drug market in the park, is there evidence for or against the connection?

Jake Offenhartz: I would say that there is no evidence that crime is rising in city parks. We looked at some of that data and major felonies in city parks city-wide are at a low for the last six years. I don't know that there's any connection. This is something that the precinct would know, and I haven't really heard it from them, that there's a connection to an increase in [inaudible 00:12:05] is within the larger precinct because of what's happening in the park.

As you guys have talked about on the show, we are seeing an uptake in some crimes across the city since the start of the pandemic. I think that people who live near the park would probably point out that, yes, like the tenor of the park in some ways has changed over the last year. It's become more of a gathering point for young people. In a corner of the park, I think there may be more drug use than there was before, but also that corner has seen a lot of drug use for quite a while to begin with. I think preemption is the right word here. It's not at their control right now, but they're trying to get ahead of it, and this was the mayor's concern.

Brian Lehrer: Lourdes in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Lourdes. Thanks a lot for calling in.

Lourdes: Hi, Brian. Thank you so much for taking my call. I'm a very big fan of yours.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you.

Lourdes: I live a block south of Washington Square Park, and I walk through there multiple times a day. What I'll say about the NYPD arrest is that they feel incredibly punitive given that their reasoning is that it's because of crime or drug abuse. I will agree that the tenor of the park has changed obviously in the past year, but those are circumstances that have a lot to do with both the pandemic and, frankly, the government's lack of response to both the drug and homelessness issues in the city.

If the NYPD's intent was actually to help with safety, these issues would be addressed all day and night. The flagrant crime and drug abuse is happening at 10:00 AM, so it's not just a nighttime problem. In fact, it makes me much more nervous to know that the NYPD is in riot gear and doing random arrests down the street from my house at 10:00 PM, which for New York is a very early hour.

I could be coming home from the subway or dinner and get caught up in these pathetic shows of measure or force, if you ask me, which I know is something that the NYPD loves to do. There's obviously no rioting happening in the park at 10:00 PM. It's just a complete exaggeration. This kind of response in no way helps the people in the park who actually need assistance, and it does not make the residents of the neighborhood feel safe. In fact, closing the park or areas of the park has only served to push the individuals who are doing or selling drugs into areas where there are more people.

Brian Lehrer: Lourdes, if we assume local residents do not want assaults and robberies and also do not want violent police raids as you've been expressing as a Twitter from yesterday expressed, is anyone who you know of proposing a theory of everything solution?

Lourdes: No, I have not heard anything that actually makes sense and would help anyone in any regard. I would love to hear it.

Brian Lehrer: Lourdes, thank you very much. Jake, let me ask you as a reporter. Is anyone proposing a theory of everything solution?

Jake Offenhartz: I don't know if it's a theory of everything, but I know one thing that harm reduction and homeless advocates have talked a lot about is safe injection sites, and that's something that Governor Cuomo has not really given the green light to although he has claimed he would in the last few years. According to these advocates, these sites, they would cut down on visible drug use in public parks by giving people a safe place to use drugs. This model has worked in other cities, but it's not something that we've really explored on a widespread basis here in New York City. That's one thing I've heard.

I think there's really two issues here. I think there's that drug issue, and then I think that there is just people using the parks more. In the case of Washington Square Park, it is a lot of young people of color who are using these parks in a way that they really weren't a year ago. The makeup of the park has changed. What you're seeing is a lot of people having fun and listening to music and using this public space in a way that I think a lot of people would agree it's meant to be used.

For the last year, this wasn't really something that was an issue. It wasn't a flashpoint that we saw the NYPD clear at the park like once in November. For the most part, it's been this really joyous place. Now we're seeing some neighbors pushed back. It's a question of who should be able to use the park, how long should they be able to use it? Are you allowed to have music in the park, which is actually a confusing question. To me, that is actually a separate matter than the issue of how do we solve homelessness and drug use in New York City- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a sound call-

Jake Offenhartz: - which is pretty tricky.

Brian Lehrer: - and then we'll come back to the music part of the issue. Alex in Nolita, you're on WNYC. Hi, Alex. Thanks for calling in.

Alex: Hi, Brian. A long-time listener and a first-time caller. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you.

Alex: The reason I called in is just because I've been, for the past months, going to Washington Square Park every weekend. I've gone because it just seemed like such a positive realignment in our neighborhood where there are so many kids, and so many people of color, and so many LGBTQ, and they're all in one place having fun. When I was once younger in New York, I used to go out with not much money and be able to make a night out of it in public spaces, and it felt like a reclamation of that.

As far as the partying goes, there's plenty of partying in the neighborhood that's ramped up everywhere. The East Village is full of partying. Partiers are even down the block from me. It's full of partiers, but those partiers are all white and moneyed and pouring out of bars where they spend money. It felt like this move by the police was just the status quo being brought down on what had felt like a positive realignment where, before the pandemic, the city had really taken on a particular flavor downtown that was moneyed and white. This felt like a reclamation of that space, and now it feels like it's being- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Taken back?

Alex: - shut down. Yes.

Brian Lehrer: I imagine, Alex. I imagine that the mayor would say something like he doesn't care about parties, and certainly doesn't care about color. He cares about danger from the assaults and robberies, and maybe a seediness that makes the park kid-unfriendly, as some people have said. Does it not feel like that to you?

Alex: No. Look, on the one hand, Washington Square Park has always had an element of seediness. I would even argue that that's part of Washington Square Park's character. No one's ever tried to take that foundational element about the park, at least as long as I've been alive, away from it. As far as violence goes, I never saw any violence while I was there. I saw plenty drug use. There's a lot more marijuana smoke everywhere in the city since Cuomo lifted the ban especially, and there are certainly a fair amount of public drinking, but those are other things that I see in the context of COVID where people have just been outside a lot more anywhere.

The connection to violence, I don't know if that connects just to the larger uptake in violence and its being associated with Washington Square Park which was hit, and the particular color of the population there. For me, that's more of what's up than I think the larger issue. I think there's a way in which these parties happen. In a park, they're also much less disruptive than a bar downstairs that's now up until 4:00 AM in the morning with people spilling out and yelling on the street all day below people's apartments in the middle of a park too. There are ways in which I also found the experience less disruptive at a community level.

Brian Lehrer: Alex, thanks for all those thoughts. Thanks for being a first-time caller. Please call us again. As we continue to talk about the context of the police crackdown in Washington Square Park on Saturday night with Jake Offenhartz from Gothamist who's reporting on it and putting it in a larger context of a battle for public space in Manhattan, then let's go right to another caller. Lou in Belle Mead, New Jersey, you're on WNYC. Hi, Lou. Thanks for calling in.

Lou: Hi. I was attacked at knife point in the park on a Tuesday at 1:00 PM. I almost got stabbed and killed. Your guest who's saying, "I don't know about violence in the park," he should probably research the police records because the police came and they said something similar happened that Sunday night. As I told my friends what had happened, everybody was sending me links about violent crime that had been occurring in the park.

Now, I'm a white male and I was attacked by another white person. That person was hanging out in the northwest corner of the park with all the other transients. They look like homeless people. They definitely look like drug addicts. This idea that nothing's going on and seediness is just part of life there, I don't know that we should accept that because I was almost killed. Okay? I still have a screwed-up shoulder from the attack.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, sorry.

Lou: Fortunately, all my cuts and scrapes healed up. The people that came to help me that live in the park, and some nannies that were in charge of three and four-year-olds, said that that northwest corner of the park is really bad and they get harassed every day, and multiple times a day, and that something needed to be done. They had felt that the transient people and the addicts, the people that are smoking crack, that the one person had talked about were starting to feel a little empowered to continue their kind of behavior because of the defund the police attitude.

I know my attack is just one data point, but I would suggest that yourself and your guests do some research about the actual crime statistics. The police came. There's the police report. The idea that we should maybe just accept crime in the park [chuckles] seems a little ridiculous to me. Safety first, guys. Come on.

Brian Lehrer: I will say that. Lou, thank you for sharing your experience. I'm sure it is incredibly shocking and maybe transforming to have something that awful happened to you. I will say that, Jake, the stat that you cite in your article is that, at least statistically, crime has not increased in city parks. We know that crime is increasing on the streets over the past year. Crime is not increasing in city parks according to the NYPD data, is that what you reported?

Jake Offenhartz: Yes, but the caller is not wrong that it would be helpful to actually have a little bit more specific data here and look at trends within Washington Square Park itself, which is not something that the NYPD has given us yet. We have the larger precinct, which mirrors what we're seeing in a lot of precincts. Yes, I would just add that it's a horrible and scary experience. I'm sorry that happened to that caller.

I wonder if this is another thing we've heard, how quickly cops got there, and were there cops around. One person mentioned to me that it seems strange that there's not many cops in the park normally, and then they're coming in full force at 10:00 PM, and they wanted to see a balance where there was a few cops in the park making sure that didn't happen but didn't want to see these raids and riot gear that we had this weekend.

Brian Lehrer: Lou, thank you very much for your call and your candor about what happened to you. Please call us again. To some of the other points that he was raising along the way there, not just simply, "Is there much crime and is there not much crime in the park?" when he was talking about this idea that some of the people who may be threatening feel empowered right now.

You quote in your article a Gramercy resident saying, "There's a tenor in this park that's beginning to change. The drug dealers got a beachhead in the pandemic." Does your reporting indicate he's right about drug dealers getting a beachhead? The caller seemed to refer to that thing too, and also about a particular corner of the park.

Jake Offenhartz: Yes, there's a particular corner. In my experience, I run over there sometimes. It seems like it's spread out a little bit since two years ago when there was maybe 15 to 20 people over there. Now it's more. In the last week, we have seen the parks department actually barricade off that area, and they're planning some children's programming there. Presumably, there will be some social service outreach to those folks. I don't know that that's happened. I've seen complaints that some people have moved over to Sixth Avenue.

This is something that has changed. I think the city is struggling how to address it at the same time. As I mentioned before, I don't think that is what is accounting for this curfew entirely. I think there's a few factors here.

Brian Lehrer: Kate in The Bronx, you're on WNYC. Hi, Kate.

Kate: Hi. Thank you for having me, first of all.

Brian Lehrer: Of course.

Kate: I listen to you pretty much every day. I'm a police officer. I'm a female. I'm a mother. I am married to a person of color. I have been listening to a lot of the different shows. I just want to say to everyone out there that I think everyone needs to be very clear about what they would like the police to do because everyone talks about, "We don't want this," and, "We don't want that." You need to decide what you want.

I am quite clear on where it is safe to be with my children and where it is not safe to be with my children. While I am able to carry a gun, I don't ever want to have to use one with my children nearby. People paint police officers with the same brush. I think there are police officers who listen to The Brian Lehrer Show who are thoughtful people, but we need some directions because we work for you. What you want is what we will do, but you need to be clear about what you want.

Brian Lehrer: I think we're hearing this from police officers a lot right now. They're being asked to do things that put them in untenable positions. They're being asked to do things that they don't want to do. In many cases, you can reinforce that idea if you want to. They're being told to go. They're being told, "We want you here. We don't want you here." They're being told by brass to do things that put them in maybe sometimes unnecessary conflict with the community.

From your perspective as all those things you said you are, a cop and a mother, spouse of the person of color, do you have a suggestion of what the cops should be asked to do and not be asked to do in situations like the one we're talking about at Washington Square Park?

Kate: I think personally my mother always said nothing good happens after-- My mom would say nothing ever good happens after midnight. Well, maybe nothing good happens after ten o'clock in the park, and maybe the park should be shut down. Maybe it's not a place to walk through in the night-times.

My husband grew up in Queens, in a not wonderful area. He knew very clearly as a child what places to avoid. Honestly, his thought as a child was parks are dangerous places at all times of day, not because of police officers, but because of the people who were hanging out in them. Maybe it's not a place to be in the evening. I know that I would not walk with my children through Washington Square Park at night. I would not.

Brian Lehrer: Can you also give us your take on one of the biggest complaints that seems to be coming up about what happened in Washington Square Park over the weekend, which is the show of force at curfew time, of police in riot gear, and the apparent according to some of the videos-- I realize videos are excerpts and they don't show whole contexts-- but the apparent excessive use of force by the police?

Kate: I am a female. I am not a large female. If I'm approaching someone and they're going to not like the message that I'm delivering, I want to be safe, and I want to go home to my children at night. I know a female who was involved in policing the protests last year. She unexpectedly was coming home late one night and her husband, unfortunately, had the news on, and her children for days were afraid that she wasn't going to come home at all. It's not because of anything that anyone said to them. It's because her children understood that what she does is dangerous.

We are there to protect. We are there to serve. We are not obligated to get injured at work every night. We are not obligated to end up in the hospital instead of going home to our children.

Brian Lehrer: Kate, I really, really--

Kate: We understand that that can happen, but we are not obligated to be injured so that someone can use heroin in the park.

Brian Lehrer: Kate, thank you so much for your call. I appreciate the bit of courage you probably took to call in and have this conversation publicly. Please call us again.

Kate: Take care. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Jake, I think we've heard from our various callers, some of the earlier ones, Alex downtown, Lourdes downtown, some of the later ones, the caller from New Jersey who said he got knifed in the park, the officer who just called in with her perspective, if nothing else is a representation of the complexity of the situation.

Jake Offenhartz: Yes, you get an idea of the various competing feelings here.

Brian Lehrer: Though we certainly didn't solve it. Before we go, I know you wanted to touch on the noise issue also as an aspect of this. You reported on a DJ who had audio equipment seized and got a ticket for excessive noise. First time for him in the pandemic era. How much does your reporting indicate that this is about noise in addition to behaviors that lead to violence?

Jake Offenhartz: I think the noise and the dancing, which goes hand-in-hand with partying, is a large part of this. What we saw at Tompkins Square Park on Saturday was that they decided to close the park early because the previous night, one of these guys who has a speaker and has a roving dance party following him, they had gone to Tompkins, and so it was seen as the next Washington Square Park, so we have to get out in front of that and shut that down.

Yes, I think a big part of it is that this wasn't really something that we saw so commonly before the pandemic. Now people are used to partying with their friends in parks and in public spaces. We haven't really got in a clear answer from the mayor on whether or not that can continue, and so that'll be something we're going to keep an eye on.

Brian Lehrer: Jake Offenhartz, Gothamist reporter. His latest article is NYPD Sets New Park Curfews. A Battle For Public Space Is Brewing In Manhattan. Jake, thanks a lot.

Jake Offenhartz: Thanks, Brian.

 

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