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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. The New York City Department of Sanitation Commissioner, Jessica Tisch, is with us now. By now, Mayor Adams' determination to reduce New York City's rat population is well-known, including his personal revulsion by rats. Two big sanitation department initiatives aim, at least in part, to further those efforts. The department is addressing the city's strangely early, I think it's fair to call them, set-out times for trash and recycling, which have left garbage to sit on the curb for many long hours and feed a happy rat population.

Starting April 1st, that's this Saturday, those set-out times will be pushed back. The other initiative sees the return of curbside composting. This will be in Queens, which is also designed in part to keep food waste out of residential trash. We'll ask Commissioner Tisch about these initiatives. Another change coming to the sanitation department, which is that they'll now handle street-vending enforcement. Commissioner Tisch, welcome back to WNYC.

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: Thanks so much for having me, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Right away, Commissioner, I will let you speak to homeowners and residents and landlords and supers and tell them what the new set times are.

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: We want New Yorkers to know that a big change is coming to New York City on Saturday. This is a change that is 50 years in the making. Historically, New Yorkers have set out their black trash bags on the streets every day at 4:00 PM. It's not just a little trash. It's 24 million pounds a day. On April 1st, we're putting in place a new rule that says no black bags on the curbs before 8:00 PM. If you want to set out your trash earlier, you can do so at 6:00 PM, but it's got to be in a container.

Brian Lehrer: The message to accompany these new pickup times is "send rats packing." There's an image of a rat clutching a tiny suitcase with both its front paws, a glimmer in his little eye. Are you worried that the rat on the flyer is too cute? Where is he going with that little suitcase?

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: No, I'm actually very pleased with that flyer because it really got people's attention. When you make a change as big as this that affects all 8.5 million New Yorkers, you need your message to get through. I think that that flyer is something that people talked about. It's something that people took note about. It's something that people didn't just throw in the trash.

Brian Lehrer: Explain exactly what the new rules are so people understand what they have to do and what they cannot do.

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: The new rule is that New Yorkers can no longer place their black trash bags on the curb at 4:00 PM. If they want to put black bags on the curb, they can do so at 8:00 PM. If they'd like to put their trash out earlier, they can do so at 6:00 PM, but it's got to be in a container with a lid. Brian, it is the case that one of the goals of this initiative is to decrease the rat population in the city, but it's also about accessibility and cleanliness. 4:00 PM is the earliest set-out time of any major city in the world, not just in the United States.

Today, trash sits on our street for 14 hours a day. It's set out at 4:00 PM. It's collected at 6:00 AM. People see it during the AM and the PM rush hour when they're coming home from work at night, when they're taking their kids to school in the morning. It doesn't have to be this way. We want to shrink the amount of time that trash spends on our curbs from 14 hours a day to under 6 hours a day. We're doing that by asking New Yorkers to set out their trash later, but the Department of Sanitation is also coming around and collecting so much more of it earlier on our midnight shift rather than at our 6:00 AM shift.

Brian Lehrer: Commissioner, there are some topics on this show where just by starting the topic, all our lines fill up before I even give out the phone number. It happened the other day when we were talking about the politics of Netanyahu in Israel. That probably won't surprise you. Well, it's happened right now, [laughs] talking about trash set-out times in New York City. All our lines are full. Listeners, if you want to ask Commissioner Jessica Tisch a question, you'll have to wait till some of your neighbors finish up, but it's 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Let's take a question right now from Q in the Bronx. Q, you're on WNYC with the New York City sanitation commissioner. Hi.

Q: Hi, Brian. Thanks for taking my call. Please give me a moment. [chuckles] The issue makes me really upset. I'm a lifelong New Yorker and have been dealing with trash forever, so there's two things. One, I don't see how this change of hours is really going to affect the rat situation or make it any better. Simply because rats, regardless of whatever time you put out the trash, they smell food. It doesn't matter if the trash is out two hours early, three hours earlier. Still, the issue is collection.

Therefore, what we need is 24-hour collection service, not change in time. As a homeowner, except families that several homes that we take care of, usually, people are not back from work until after 5:00 or 6:00. They're putting their trash between 6:00 or 8:00. It is the commercial properties that may put it at 4:00. I've never seen any of my fellow homeowners put out trash at 4:00 or at 5:00. Secondly, the composting thing, great for the environment, but it sucks for the rat situation.

Because, once again, the bins that the city provides, I've never used city bins, those plastic things. Because, whether they're city-issue bins or plastic bins, I see rats in and out of those bins all the time because tenants have a habit of filling up the trash. I use metal trash cans. I've never had rats go into my black bags when I put them on a curb because I do a special treatment on my trash bag or in my bin unless my tenant accidentally left the lid open. Those plastic bins are horrible. I see rats. It doesn't matter what borough.

Brian Lehrer: Q, let me get your response from the commissioner, but just tell us one thing first because I think a lot of people will want to know. You just teased us. What's the special treatment that you put on your black plastic bags?

Q: I don't want to say because I just mean-- but honestly, swear to God, I go to church all the time. I have rats busting in my bags. They bust in my neighbor's bags. I try to give them pointers, but I make sure there are no-- and I'm being honest, they don't bust into my bags and in my--

Brian Lehrer: You won't tell us what it is? Is it something we can buy in the hardware store?

Q: Yes, something legal. Nothing illegal or whatever. Just the clue is rats sense go to trash bags because of the smell of food. My bags don't smell like food, but I do have food in them clearly because we eat.

Brian Lehrer: I got you. You put maybe something that smells bad. Q, thank you very much. Well, two very substantive questions from Q there. Commissioner, what about the collection times as opposed to the times you can put the trash out?

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: Sure. I'll start with responding to the collection times. At the Department of Sanitation, we have made a very big change to our operations. We are not only asking New Yorkers to make a change. We are also changing. Along with the later set-out times for New Yorkers, the Department of Sanitation is also collecting a huge amount of trash earlier at midnight rather than at 6:00 AM.

Historically, all 24 million pounds of trash have been collected starting at 6:00 AM. Some trash collection started as late as 4:00 PM. We are getting rid of the 4:00 PM collection and we are doing all of our collection in New York City going forward on the midnight shift and on the 6:00 AM shift. We are dramatically shrinking the amount of time the trash spends on the streets of New York City.

Now, Brian, Q also raised an important point about businesses. It is the case that there is a huge amount of commercial trash that goes out on the streets very early in the day. It really goes out all hours of the day because the current rules state that a business can set out its trash one hour before closing time. Who really knows when closing time is, so that rule is highly unenforceable.

The other important change that goes into effect on April 1st is we've changed the time that businesses can set out their trash as well. Again, no black bags on the curb before 8:00 PM, whether it's residential trash or commercial trash. For businesses that close before 8:00 PM, if they would like to set out their trash an hour before closing, they may do so, but it's got to be in a container with a lid.

I just make one final additional point to close out my response to Q's comments, which is we want to shut down the all-night, all-you-can-eat rat buffet. Limiting the amount of time that trash spends on the street, shrinking the hours so dramatically as we're about to do, is going to make a meaningful difference, but getting at rats is not the only goal of these set-out time changes.

New Yorkers should not have to play a game of Hopscotch as they walk down the street jumping for over one bag to the next. This is also about the cleanliness of our streets and it's about accessibility. As I said previously, we are the only city in the country that has not innovated in this area over the past decade. Most cities have moved their set-out times to much later in the day and it is, in my opinion, absolutely well past time that New York City catch up.

Brian Lehrer: Ron in Hamilton Heights, you're on WNYC with Sanitation Commissioner Jessica Tisch. Hi, Ron.

Ron: Hi, I'm a small homeowner with three tenants. The adjustment for us will be more difficult. People who work for us are maybe just the neighborhood handyman and he doesn't stay around till eight o'clock. I hear some of the alternative you're suggesting, but my comment is that I'll wait to see the proof of it. Because even now as we stand today, we put it out at five o'clock and they don't arrive until maybe ten o'clock the next morning. I'm wondering how the adjustments really going to impact it to pick up earlier. It seems that we're just following the rule and that we'll just wait again to find if anyone picks it up anytime soon after the point where we put it out.

Brian Lehrer: Ron, did you also tell our screener that as a senior citizen who hires help, it's not easy to get someone to stay late to put it out at the new appointed times?

Ron: Right. We're just a small operator, but we do have trash from several apartments. I am a senior, so it means that I will have to figure out how I could get somebody to-- actually, handicapped senior, someone to help me to get that out at a later date.

Brian Lehrer: Commissioner?

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: Yes, Brian, this is a change that is going to affect almost all 8.5 million New Yorkers. We tried to be thoughtful about accommodating a number of different stakeholders and constituencies and circumstances. One of the things that we did was we did a survey of other major cities around the country and around the world because they have a lot of the same types of stakeholders that we have, seniors, businesses that close before 5:00 PM. We try to strike a balance. The rules state, no black bags on the curb before 8:00 PM. If people want to set them out earlier, they still can at 6:00 PM, which is a pretty early set-out time, but it's got to be in a container with a lid.

Brian Lehrer: To Q's point earlier, are the metal containers much more effective than the plastic ones?

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: In our rules, we didn't put the type of container that was required. The only requirement is that it has to be in a container with a sealed lid. The important part is that there be a lid on the container because we've seen that that is much more effective at dealing with rats than containers with open lids.

Brian Lehrer: Ron in Hamilton Heights, in case this helps you, maybe you've thought of this already, but someone just popped an idea into my head that maybe if it's hard for you or your hired help to get the garbage out later or transition to those containers with lids as the commissioner was just describing, maybe you can enlist one of the tenants to do the trash for a reduction in rent. A friend of mine says that's how their landlord did it in their last apartment. For a small landlord, perhaps one possible solution to something, but thank you for your call in raising those concerns. A new composting program starting in Queens. Commissioner, you want to describe that?

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: Sure. In New York City, we've been talking about rolling out curbside composting service for almost 20 years. It's happened in fits and starts. Mayor Adams committed to rolling out curbside composting citywide over the next 19 months. That means all 8.5 million New Yorkers and all 3.5 million residences will have access to regular, weekly curbside composting collection on their recycling day.

The service started this week in Queens. We're thrilled to see the Queens residents putting out their bins of compost on their recycling day. This program is being rolled out based on the wild success of a pilot that we ran this fall over 12 weeks in Queens, where we diverted more than 13 million pounds of compostable material from landfill. That means that that material gets turned into soil or renewable energy instead of sitting in landfill for decades and producing methane.

It is something that we achieved by looking at and studying old past composting programs that had failed in making important adjustments. Among them, designing a mass market program. We are providing a service to New Yorkers. We are not asking New Yorkers to provide a service to us. We relaxed so many of the old restrictions from legacy programs. For example, no need to sign up, no need to opt in, no need to use a specific type of bin. Our trucks are rolling every week on your recycling day starting this week in Queens. This is finally the program for curbside composting that is here to stay.

Brian Lehrer: It started Monday, right? Any early returns?

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: It started Monday. It's too early to tell on the Monday results. I will say if we look at what happened this fall in Queens, we had eight districts in Queens in the fall that outperformed Park Slope, which has had curbside composting service for decades. It's a district where you have more of the truest of the true believers. Eight districts in Queens naturally outperformed Park Slope and one district, Jamaica and St. Albans, outperformed all seven legacy districts combined.

Brian Lehrer: Three questions that you can probably answer together. What kind of bin or bag should the composting be put out in? Is this mandatory now and is it borough-wide?

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: It is a borough-wide service. We are rolling to every address in Queens. On the question about bins, Queens residents can use whatever bin they want so long as it has a lid that seals. In past programs, they were only allowed to participate if they used a special brown bin that came from the city, and then there was all this drama, "I lost my bin," "My bin got stolen," "I don't have a bin yet," and we wanted to relax that and make it all simple and straightforward and easy for New Yorkers to use.

New Yorkers can use whatever bin they want so long as it has a lid that seals. Your question about mandatory is a very timely one. Yesterday, we put forward a new rule that would require mandatory composting of one type of compostable material, yard waste. Now, why did we start with yard waste? Yard waste is something that New Yorkers naturally separate, meaning they don't bring it back into the house. It doesn't go into the kitchen. We felt like it wasn't onerous to ask New Yorkers.

Instead of putting your yard waste, your leaves in a black bag, just put them out in a clear bag or in your composting bin on your recycling day, and we will come and pick it up. There is no food waste mandate in New York City at this time. I believe that yard waste is the appropriate place to start. It's also the place that other cities that have rolled out highly-successful curbside composting programs started. Portland, San Francisco, Seattle, Toronto. They all started in the program's infancy with a focus on yard waste.

Brian Lehrer: How does composting work in apartment buildings?

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: In apartment buildings, the building management puts out the trash. They put out the recycling. They will also start putting out the composting bins. In previous programs, we saw not enough of an early uptick or adoption among large buildings. What we've done in Queens is we automatically sent every building with nine or more units a composting bin without having them sign up or ask for them. The idea there was to take any hurdles out of the way to allow building managers to easily facilitate composting service.

Brian Lehrer: Juan in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with Sanitation Commissioner Jessica Tisch. Hi, Juan.

Juan: Hi, good morning. Thank you for having me. I took a rat clinic that the city provides. One of the main things is that rats will need food and water. My question to Jessica is, why the city stopped giving homeowners free gallons of containers so the rats don't have access to eat food at night, and why just enforce six-family unit buildings in Brooklyn or Queens to use gallons with bin instead of allowing them to keep putting trash in trash bags that rats can have access at any time?

Brian Lehrer: Yes, that's a great question. Why not ban the plastic garbage bags altogether and require that people use the hard bins and distribute them as you did before?

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: Oh, Brian, you saw the feedback that I just got on your show about the changes in the set-out times. I feel like at this point, requiring universal bin usage would pose a lot of individual problems for individual homeowners and businesses, which is why we try to strike a balance of giving people options. 8:00 PM on the curb, 6:00 PM in the container, extra credit for putting it in a container.

We are definitely pushing in the area of containerization. In my opinion, the change in the set-out time rules, which take effect on April 1st, will dramatically increase the amount of bin usage that we see in the city because a lot of New Yorkers are going to want to set their trash out before 8:00 PM. They can do so going forward in a bin. I think we wanted to give people options before contemplating a full bin mandate.

As to the other question about the city providing free bins. In fact, we do. Any resident in Queens had an opportunity to request a free brown bin from the Department of Sanitation. We generally got it to them within a week of request. As we roll out the curbside composting service to all the other boroughs over the next 19 months, we will give residents in those boroughs the same opportunity to request and receive a free brown bin.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Listeners, there you have it on all the new garbage collection rules and privileges and urgings from the sanitation commissioner and the mayor. One more thing before you go. I just want to touch briefly on the other change that will go into effect on Saturday, and that's that your department will take over enforcement of street vending from the Department of Consumer and Worker Protection.

I've seen that their commissioner felt her agency was ill-equipped to handle street vending and that inspectors from that agency sometimes faced resistance, even threats of violence when fulfilling duties of enforcement like asking vendors for ID. Are your sanitation workers any better equipped to handle enforcement of street vending than the Department of Consumer and Worker Protection?

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: A little-known fact about the sanitation department is we actually have a sanitation police department. It's fairly small inside, but the enforcement around the rules of illegal vending will be handled by a small group of sanitation police officers, who are very well-trained to work at the intersection of cleanliness and business and accessibility. In my opinion, this is actually right in their lane.

Brian Lehrer: New York City Sanitation Commissioner Jessica Tisch, we always appreciate when you come on with us and that you're accessible for taking calls from New Yorkers. Thank you very much for today.

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: Thank you for having me.

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