Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Back in April 2019, NYPD Officer Brendan Thompson tased and fatally shot 32-year-old dancer and personal trainer Kawaski Trawick in the Bronx. Some of you know this story, some of you do not. Trawick had called 911 because he had locked himself out of his apartment. FDNY personnel, fire department personnel, responded to the call, let him into his apartment, and left the building, but moments later, NYPD officers arrived in response to a call saying Trawick was being threatening.

Less than two minutes after they arrived, one of those officers, Officer Brendan Thompson, fired the shots that would ultimately be fatal. Trawick had been holding a knife. The NYPD and the Bronx District Attorney cleared Thompson and his more experienced partner, Officer Herbert Davis, of wrongdoing, but the Civilian Complaint Review Board, the independent civilian agency tasked with investigating allegations of misconduct against members of the NYPD, had substantiated misconduct against both officers and called for them to be dismissed from their jobs.

Now an NYPD administrative judge has recommended no disciplinary charges for the two NYPD officers involved in Trawick's death. That judge said that CCRB prosecutors filed the charges too late even as she acknowledged factors outside the agency's control that contributed to the delay. Important among those factors, it took the NYPD a year and a half to provide 23 videos from body-worn camera footage that investigators had requested way back in June 2019.

We'll get a response now from the CCRB's interim chair Arva Rice, who called the NYPD administrative judge's ruling disappointing. In addition to serving as interim chair of the CCRB, Arva Rice is the CEO and president of the New York Urban League. Miss Rice, thank you for coming on today. Welcome back to WNYC.

Arva Rice: Thank you for having me, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Would you like to add anything first to that account of the fatal shooting of Kawaski Trawick, any relevant context I left out?

Arva Rice: I think that was a great summary. The only thing that I would add was Kawaski was living in supportive housing in the Bronx. That supportive housing, he'd stay there because it's a place for people who have mental health complexities, who have issues around substance abuse, so it is a housing that is specifically designed for people who are in need of support and care.

Brian Lehrer: Even though the NYPD and the Bronx District Attorney, the Bronx DA, cleared those officers of wrongdoing, the CCRB investigators under you substantiated misconduct allegations against them in connection with Trawick's death, meaning they found those officers guilty of misconduct. What specifically did CCRB investigators find those officers to have done wrong?

Arva Rice: In this case, Officer Brendan Thompson, who was the junior officer who was involved in this incident, we had four allegations against him. The first was that we felt that he wrongfully entered the apartment. You already mentioned to your listeners that initially, Kawaski had called 911 because he was locked out of his apartment and the fire department had gotten him back into the apartment. He was inside and the door was still ajar because it had had to be forcibly opened in order to get inside, but the chain was still on the door, and so when the police officers came, they pushed through the door.

We felt like that was a wrongful entering of the apartment and that were allegations that were made to both Brendan Thompson as well as Officer Herbert Davis. The second allegation that we substantiated was against Brendan Thompson for using his Taser. We thought that that was something that did not need to happen at that time, as well as pulling his gun and firing it four times, two of which that landed, unfortunately, in Kawaski's body and led to his ultimate death. Then the last was not administering a medical aid. Those were the four against Officer Thompson.

Then Officer Herbert Davis had two and that was wrongfully entering the apartment, and then once the shooting took place, he also did not administer any medical aid but was the officer specifically who closed the door and then waited until the EMT arrived.

Brian Lehrer: How do you explain the difference between your finding and the Bronx DA's finding? Is it that there's a different standard of evidence or a different standard of misconduct? In other words, maybe it wasn't criminal, but it was worthy of dismissal because people may be confused by the fact that the Bronx DA cleared those officers in the way that she does and you found them guilty of something in the way that the CCRB does.

Arva Rice: Yes, that's a great question, Brian. You alluded to it in your question and that is that the Bronx District Attorney was looking for criminal intent. The district attorney decided that the officer's actions were not criminal in their action. The Civilian Complaint Review Board, as you mentioned, was established in the 1950s. Mayor Dinkins made it an independent agency in 1993 after the horrific beating and rape of Abner Louima. We are an independent body. We're specifically looking at issues of excessive force, abuse of authority, discourtesy, offensive language, and now racial profiling and bias-based policing.

Our specific purview is for any member of the community who feels like they have had a negative interaction with the police around those core areas. For us, we felt that this was excessive force, and it was not necessary in these findings. We also found that there were issues having to do with the patrol guide that the officers also violated. That's the reason why we substantiated the allegations.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take a few phone calls for CCRB interim chair Arva Rice about the NYPD's recommendation of no disciplinary charges for the two officers involved in the 2019 shooting death of Kawaski Trawick. The judge, as we will get to, faulted the CCRB for delays even as she acknowledged it took the NYPD more than a year to provide CCRB investigators the video footage, the body cam footage, that they requested for the investigation.

Call or text your question to 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. On this delay of turning over body cam footage, how do CCRB investigators get access to police department records including body camera footage?

Arva Rice: The CCRB is responsible for requesting the information. We request the information, and it's up to the police department to release that. As you mentioned, we did violate the statute of limitations on this case, but the reason why we did that was specifically because the body-worn camera footage was not released by the police department. I want to be really clear that my reason for being on the show with you today is not about a blame game. I have no interest in that. It is truly about accountability, and it's about making sure that this family feels like they receive the justice that they deserve.

Brian Lehrer: Does it mean that there needs to be a revision in the way this is handled and some kind of requirements under the rules or under law for body cam footage or other evidence to be turned over to the CCRB in a timely manner so you don't get disqualified before the judge for a delay?

Arva Rice: We believe so. There is legislation that is currently pending in the City Council that has been introduced and supported by Speaker Adrienne Adams that would grant us the power that would help us to prevent from having these delays in the future.

Brian Lehrer: I want to note that the CCRB does not make the final determination about discipline when allegations against police officers are substantiated. It's worth reminding people because so many listeners don't know the ins and outs of exactly the hierarchy and the sequence of events of how this works. The NYPD Commissioner does, and that when these allegations make it to trial, they're administrative trials, as they're called, overseen by judges who, correct me if I'm wrong, are employed by the NYPD like the judge in this case, Judge Maldonado, who was the deputy commissioner of trials and who blamed the CCRB for taking too long to bring charges.

I wonder if you think that that needs to change too. The whole point of the CCRB is that it is a, as the initial stand for, a Civilian Complaint Review Board. It's supposed to be independent of the NYPD, but ultimately, the decisions are not.

Arva Rice: That is correct. As you mentioned, the CCRB is made up of 15 individuals who are nominated by the mayor himself, by City Council, one by the public advocate, and then the chair is a joint appointment by the mayor and City Council. We also have three individuals who are appointed by the NYPD as well. We have a Civilian Complaint Review Board that is trained. We receive training and instruction, and then all the staff members are responsible for doing investigations, speaking with police officers themselves, the individuals who are making the complaint, reviewing body-worn camera footage.

The collection of that work comes to us in panels where we look at the cases that are presented to us. A panel that's made up of three individuals, one recommended by the mayor's office, who's been appointed by the mayor's office, the City Council, and also by the police department. It is a balanced review that we do in order to come up with our recommendations, but as you mentioned, they are recommendations.

We either substantiate or do not substantiate a case based on the review that we do, then that recommendation is sent to the NYPD, and the police commissioner has the ultimate jurisdiction. They have the ultimate authority whether to implement the recommendation and to substantiate and to follow the recommendations that the CCRB makes.

Brian Lehrer: To that point, Ellen Trawick, Kawaski's mother, told the news organization, The City, "It wasn't the CCRB, it was the NYPD. It was them. They held the process up so long. I really feel like it was something that the NYPD rigged up from the beginning." Of course, she's suggesting that the NYPD deliberately delayed sending investigators video footage so that the statute of limitations would expire before the charges could be made. Do you make that allegation?

Arva Rice: I think that I can't speak to the intent of the NYPD, but I can speak to the impact. The fact that the body-worn camera footage was delayed, the impact was that we did go by the statute of limitations, and so we had to use the crime exception, which elevated our burden of proof in this case. The impact of us receiving the body-worn camera footage made it certainly more difficult for us in this case. I certainly understand Mrs. Trawick's concern, and I understand her allegation. My extreme condolences to the family on their loss.

Brian Lehrer: Even if that wasn't the NYPD's intent to purposely run out the clock, which we don't know, but if that sentiment that they are running out the clock and that they have the power to run out the clock is held by people who feel they've been on the receiving end of misconduct, doesn't it undermine the whole system in a way because the point of the CCRB is public trust?

Arva Rice: I can only speak to the facts, and the facts are that not having direct access to body-worn camera footage does delay our investigations. Our role as the Civilian Complaint Review Board is to be able to give the citizens of New York City the ability to know that if they have a negative interaction with the police department that there is accountability. We truly and completely believe that in order to have a heightened level of accountability that the ultimate decisions need to reside with the CCRB.

Brian Lehrer: Listener asks in a text message, "Why was it necessary to obtain body cam footage in order to make a determination about whether it was correct to enter the apartment?"

Arva Rice: Well, the body-worn camera footage, at some point, the interviews are based on what one person said and what another person said. When you look at the body-worn camera footage, you see the actuality of what happened. You see when the door opened, who pushed the door open. You see when the person was tased, you see when Officer Davis moves his hand to get his partner to not have him tased. You actually hear what they're saying in the conversation. It becomes less of a he said, she said, but it is based on what you're actually viewing and seeing. That's the reason and the power of the body-worn camera footage.

Brian Lehrer: Lou on Staten Island, you're on WNYC. Hello, Lou.

Lou: Good morning, Brian. Thanks for taking my call. In addition to the NYPD hiring their own judge to determine whether or not a police officer [unintelligible 00:14:06], I just want to know whether or not the CCRB has power of subpoena. Do they have subpoena power to subpoena these individual officers rather than relying on police officers to judge themselves?

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for that question. Do you have subpoena power?

Arva Rice: We are able to do investigations. We do call the police officers who have allegations in, and so we're able to interview them. We do have the power to ask for their interviews, and they're able to respond to the body-worn camera footage that we show to them in order that they can provide their explanations of what happened in that situation.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for your call, Lou. Kylie in Northern Virginia, you're on WNYC. Hello, Kylie.

Kylie: Hi. Brian, you did some coverage of this, I think, two weeks ago, which was really, really good and has me a little bit worked up, even though I don't live in New York City. I would love to hear how the acting chair is going to use this as an example to get some teeth for this board because I don't really-- I understand the purpose of the board. I think it's very important, but they can't get the information in time.

They get punished for being late when there is something to do. They make a recommendation and the recommendation to be disregarded. If you're trying to ensure accountability, then you need some tools to do it. I love the subpoena power. What do you think needs to happen to get this board some clout, some street cred? Because to me, this almost erodes public trust.

Arva Rice: Thank you for that question. What we think that can happen in order to increase accountability, and we want to thank, once again, the City Council Speaker, Adrienne Adams, who formerly chaired the Public Safety Board-- She has been a true advocate for this work. Mayor Adams speaks very emotionally and well about the fact that he is a supporter of police accountability. As you know, he is a former police officer.

We believe that in order to increase accountability for this board, the first thing that we need to have into place is the passage of that law around the CCRB being able to have direct access to body-worn camera footage. That is a law that is in place in some other major cities, and we think that that's something that would really help us in terms of our work. The second thing that we believe that is really important is that we have final authority.

As you mentioned, we make recommendations. Ultimately, the police commissioner is responsible for either implementing that recommendation or not. We believe that the idea and notion of the police policing themselves only has a limited impact and effect. We believe that the CCRB should be the final arbiter of police discipline in the areas in which we have purview. The last thing is that we really think it's important for us to be able to unlock sealing statutes.

Basically, if there is a case that happens and we need additional information on that case that already happened, it basically gets sealed. The information from that case gets sealed into an envelope, and we need to be able to unseal it and be able to use that information in the cases that we are pursuing. The sealing statutes, body-worn camera footage, and final authority for CCRB in decision-making and implementation of recommendations on police misconduct will make us stronger.

Brian Lehrer: Kylie, thank you for your call. Listener asks in a text message about the Trawick case, "Why did neighbors call police?"

Arva Rice: The neighbors called police because Kawaski Trawick was in a state of emotional distress. He was walking through the hallways. He was locked out. He was knocking on people's doors, saying that he was locked out. He went to the super of the building and was asking him for assistance. Kawaski was not in a good place at the moment that that happened. The fire department, however, was able to interact with him, get him into the apartment without issue. The fact that the police officers came in and he ended up being dead is the reason why the CCRB substantiated cases of an abuse of force.

Brian Lehrer: The calls came in about alleged threatening behavior before he got back into his apartment.

Arva Rice: That is correct.

Brian Lehrer: The police only arrived after he was back in his own apartment.

Arva Rice: That is correct.

Brian Lehrer: When will this finally be resolved? Or is this the end of the road and all we're doing here is debriefing?

Arva Rice: This is not the end of the road. As you mentioned, Deputy Commissioner Maldonado made a draft decision. That's the latest news that this draft decision has been made, and it's the recommendation that she decided not to substantiate any of the allegations. Now it's gone to the police commissioner. It is up to our police commissioner, Caban, to make the final decision because he is the final arbiter of discipline within the NYPD. The timeline for that is he does not have a specific timeline, but he is the one who will ultimately make the decision about these two officers.

Brian Lehrer: Do you, as acting chair of the CCRB, get to have his ear directly?

Arva Rice: I have not actually had a sit-down meeting with the police commissioner. Our two officers are in contact in order to help make that happen. We do have, in the past, have had regular communications with the police commissioners and look forward to that continuing going forward.

Brian Lehrer: Does the mayor, of course, a former police officer and the person who appoints the police commissioner, have a role?

Arva Rice: The mayor believes that this process should be one that is independent, and so he is stepping back and letting the process unfold. As we know, he is very much a believer and supporter of police accountability.

Brian Lehrer: Arva Rice, interim chair of the CCRB and CEO and president of the New York Urban League. Thank you so much for coming on.

Arva Rice: Thank you.

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