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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC and tomorrow, of course, we'll have more on the primaries on primary day. To end today's show, I want to switch gears to talk about and invite you to talk about a controversy brewing for President Biden that we haven't mentioned on the show yet. To sum it up, the Roman Catholic bishops of the United States are laying the groundwork to prevent President Biden a devout Catholic from receiving communion over his support for abortion rights.

If you were on the New York Times website yesterday, you may have seen the article titled In Rift with Biden, a Dramatic Show of Force by a Conservative Catholic Movement. Well, if you missed it, the article gave an update to that controversial campaign from a group of Bishops against this country's second ever Catholic President, Joe Biden. Just last week, the United States conservative bishops voted overwhelmingly to draft guidelines for communion, because of his support of abortion rights. Although one stance on abortion, we should say it's not something usually disclosed at church.

Apparently it doesn't stop there. The movement has even drawn scrutiny from the Vatican. Pope Francis preached this month that communion, "Is not the reward of saints, but the bread of sinners." The Times also quoted Antonio Spadaro a Jesuit priest and close ally of Francis, who said, "The concern in the Vatican is not to use access to the Eucharist as a political weapon." According to one of the bishops, Kevin C. Rhoades, from a diocese in Indiana, there is a special obligation of those who are in leadership because of their public visibility.

Catholic listeners, this is a call-in segment and we're throwing it open for you. What is your opinion of this standoff? Do you think the bishops have the right no matter what your stance on abortion rights, do they have the right to stipulate the sacrament? 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280. Catholic listeners, should a public figure have to answer for their stances in church in this instance Biden on his stance on abortion rights? Give us a call 646-435-7280.

Did this come up in church yesterday by any chance for anybody who attended mass yesterday? 646-435-7280. Do you agree with the Vatican meaning Pope Francis who's not wild about what the bishops are doing apparently, that this is a way of politicizing the Eucharist?

If you're progressive on abortion rights, what if the shoe was on the other foot? What if there was some kind of anti-poverty stance or something else that supports the social justice side of the Catholic Church that some politicians who are Catholic were really going against? Would you be more forward in that case? Do you want them to support your politics by considering denying communion to politicians who you think violate important aspects of Catholic teaching, ones that you may consider more important than the ones having to do with abortion or with sexual relations?

646-435-7280, Catholic listeners 646-435-7280 and we'll take your calls right after this.

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Brian Lehrer on WNYC and now to your calls on Biden and the bishops. Larry in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Larry.

Larry: Hey. Thanks for taking my call. I just want to say I read the several Times stories on this issue. I just want to point out The Times tends to exaggerate this a bit. We went through this quite a while ago with John Kerry under a much more conservative Pope and it still didn't happen that the USCCB approved any document requiring that public officials who are arguably pro-abortion be denied communion. There is zero chance of this actually happening, zero.

Mathematically, the votes required and Vatican approval required for this sort of thing, it's just not going to happen. It's a scare story. There's some validity to it because there is a nutcase conservative wing among American catholic bishops, but it's not going to carry the day. It just can't. It literally cannot.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. From your understanding of the history of this, does it somehow trickle down to individual priests even who won't offer communion to some of these politicians? You're right, this is not a new issue. This came up with John Kerry, as you say. It came up once upon a time with Mario Cuomo, when he was governor of New York.

Larry: That state [unintelligible 00:05:30] that's a different ballgame. Certainly Kerry is very comparable. I seem to have lost you.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, no, I was just wondering if you know of whether or not it trickles down to actual individual priests denying communion to actual politicians.

Larry: I'm sure it can. I'm not in the church hierarchy. I can't speak for them. I don't think individual priests are supposed to go off on their own without the approval of their bishops.

Brian Lehrer: Larry, thank you so much for your call. I appreciate that context. Jeff, in Washington Heights, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jeff.

Jeff: Hi, how are you?

Brian Lehrer: Good, what you got for us?

Jeff: Good. Thanks for taking my call. I belong now to the Episcopal Church, which for people who don't know, is a Protestant denomination, but it only separated from the Catholic church because of [unintelligible 00:06:24] It's part of the Anglican community. Our services and our prayers and our liturgy, and many of our beliefs are very similar. However, one of the reasons that I joined the Episcopal Church being an ex-Catholic and a lot of ex-Catholics go there is because the Episcopal Church would never even consider this outrageous idea of withholding the body and blood of Christ from a believer because of some political beliefs, abortion or otherwise.

As far as we're concerned, Jesus died, suffered horribly, and died for us, and right before He did that, He expressed His belief and desire that we have communion every Sunday. It is for everyone, the sinners, the saints, everyone in between.

Your previous caller said he doesn't think there's any chance this is going to go through. I think it's more important than that. It's not just if it will go through or not, it's that some Catholic priests and bishops are even considering it is as far as the Episcopal Church and myself believes it's just an outrageous, withholding of God's love from people who need it.

Brian Lehrer: Jeff, thank you so much for your call. Liz in Westchester, you're on WNYC. Hi, Liz.

Liz: Hi. I have to say I'm very moved by what the gentleman in front of me just said, because that is the part of my faith, that is the most troubling to me. That we are denying the solace of the communion to people just because we think we know what's in their head and heart. We don't know what someone is thinking or feeling, personally. The fact that our president is not openly against abortion as a political, and for the rest of the world and the rest of the country, doesn't mean that that's where he is personally.

We don't get to make those kinds of decisions for other people. It's very upsetting to me. That's the reason I called. Thank you for taking my call. Sorry, I should have started there.

Brian Lehrer: Sure. Liz, that was great. Let me ask you, what if the shoe was on the other foot politically, what if it was a Catholic leader who had committed some kind of horrible human rights abuses of dissenters, jailed people, committed torture, whatever it was, how would you feel about communion being used as in a certain sense, a punishment, or an incentive in a case like that?

Liz: I hear you but I think that's a slippery slope because one of the [unintelligible 00:08:59] of our saints is that up until the very last second, you can have extrimunction and you can confess your sins and be forgiven. To say that someone who did something terrible doesn't get to have communion it's not the same thing as saying, I think they should be held accountable for their actions. That's different. This is not accountability. This is about solace and belief and getting God's love in your heart. It's not the same thing.

Brian Lehrer: Liz, thank you very much. Ralph in Hazlitt you're on WNYC. Hi, Ralph.

Ralph: Hi, how are you? This is just another Republican smokescreen with the abortion issue, again somebody started up about that. I'm really annoyed with the president because he's physically advocating for experimental vaccines to be injected into your holiest temple, your body. He wants to punish people that don't have that done. That goes directly against all religious texts that say, "You are the owner of your temple and to keep it holy and do not put all this junk in it." God knows what you're putting in with these experimental vaccines. This is where [unintelligible 00:10:17]

The church has never taken an issue with the poor, the taxation, the wars. It's just a smokescreen. They don't care about the real social issues. They don't care about the babies.

Brian Lehrer: Ralph, thank you very much. I appreciate it. Okay. Well, I always do call people out when they do a bait and switch with our screener and Ralph did not disclose that he was going to be an anti-vaxxer and trying to put it in that context, but there he was. Donald in Jersey city you are on WNYC. Hi Donald.

Donald: Oh, hi Brian. I'm a Catholic since 1994. Before that I was Protestant. I've always thought that the weaponization of the host has been kind of scandal. I mean people who are divorced without approval of the church are not supposed to take the host. I don't understand this. This makes no sense to me. I'm really on the side of Pope Francis with this, which is to say that the host should be a generous offering to people who are looking for salvation and help and cure in their own lives.

I would just also point out that Biden as a Democrat is not just a proponent for a particular policy in the church. He has to run the entire democratic party. I think I'll just leave it at that.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. We're going to go next to Carmen in Bronxville. Carmen, you're on WNYC.

Carmen: Thank you so much for taking my call. As a Catholic I would say that I'm really saddened by what this political movement by our bishops. I have written now to Cardinal Dolan, as well as to the US bishops to let them know that as a Catholic you should never use the Eucharist as a weapon against anyone who-- This is something that we as a community have to come together really, and have some type of solution to the issue of abortion.

We should take this time and really find why are we doing this? Why are our young ladies feeling that this is the only option. A social option, a social issue, a humanitarian crisis versus using this as a political stunt.

Brian Lehrer: What if the shoe was on the other foot, as I've been asking other callers? What if it was about the death penalty? What if it was about other kinds of human rights? How would you feel about that?

Carmen: Again, I think it's like the lady was saying before, it's a slippery slope. I really think that it's like apples to oranges, I really think. I really wouldn't even want to attempt to address that. I think it's addressing the issue. I think people are forgetting what it means to be Catholic anymore. I think that, go ahead, I'm sorry.

Brian Lehrer: Well, I was just going to say, in our last 20 seconds or so that the bishops and others on the other side of that would say human life begins at conception. So many people as they see it have died as a result of abortion that it's in its own category.

Carmen: Sure. What people forget again, it's why is it happening? Just by putting, it's not going to be the solution to making law out of it. You have to find solutions and come together to find out what's -

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Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much for your call. Thanks to all of you for all your calls on this Brian Lehrer on WNYC.

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