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Brian Lehrer:  It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. On Sunday, a fire in a NYCHA building in the Soundview section of the Bronx left 1 man dead and 13 others injured according to Daily News. The fire department said it believed the cause to be a lithium-ion battery in an e-bike near the deceased victim's door. The FDNY says that so far this year, lithium-ion batteries have been responsible for 253 fires, 133 injuries, and 18 deaths.

Those numbers were reported by ABC7. Many of these batteries have been e-bike batteries. New York City Council Member Keith Powers, who represents District 4 and parts of Midtown and the Upper East Side, joins us now to talk about the worrying trend and one potential solution. Earlier this year, the council member introduced a bill that enacted a trade-in program to help the public get rid of faulty e-bike batteries. City council approved that bill in September. Council Member Powers, welcome back to WNYC.

Council Member Keith Powers: Thank you, as always. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: To start on this particular fire in Soundview on Sunday, the FDNY is still investigating, but I wonder based on what you know if you think it represents the latest episode in an epidemic of sorts.

Council Member Keith Powers: It does seem to be that way. It seems like every single day, we're opening up, or at least every week, we're opening up the newspaper and finding out about another tragedy that's happened in the city, and any corner of the city when it comes to lithium-ion batteries including a fire I had in my district just about a year ago. That was a very heroic rescue, thank God, by the FDNY to save people from injuries and death.

Brian Lehrer: Generally, where are these e-bike fires happening, and who's most at risk of their e-bike battery igniting? Are there demographic, race, and class vulnerabilities here? Anything like that that you would identify?

Council Member Keith Powers: Well, I think everyone, to be honest. We're seeing it in all different corners of the city, all different boroughs, neighborhoods, and cities. Obviously, in denser parts of denser neighborhoods whether you have multifamily dwellings, people living close to each other, you're more at risk of getting injuries or deaths because of the impact that one explosion, one fire can have on people and neighbors.

Obviously, the bikes are being used for a lot of different reasons, but a lot of them are being used by delivery workers in the city right now to perform their jobs. We have New Yorkers buying them as well and buying them because it makes their community easier. Unfortunately, these folks are charging them in their apartments, sometimes a mismatch between the right battery and the right bike and using uncertified batteries, and these are causing sparks and fires, which we've seen are-- They go up very, very quick.

They're very dangerous fires and they're very hard to put out and very hard to contain. It could be in the middle of the night, someone suddenly finds their apartment on fire because their bike exploded. Then in some of these older buildings, you have the neighbors immediately in jeopardy too because there's no fire safety inside the building.

Brian Lehrer: I guess I'm thinking about how this fire, for example, happened in a NYCHA building in the South Bronx. From what I've read, the batteries most likely to malfunction in ways that cause a fire are second-hand, or aftermarket, or even counterfeit batteries that people might find cheap. Who's most likely to wind up with those kinds of batteries? It's people with less money. I'm just curious if you see that as an issue.

Council Member Keith Powers: I think it's an issue because you're right that the marketplace right there right now, folks are buying these. Some of the people are buying these online. They're looking for inexpensive models. They're not necessarily matching up the right battery with the right bike. That is going to tend to be folks who are relying on more inexpensive and cheap batteries versus folks who have the means and ability to buy nice bikes with the right battery, that's certified, and things like that.

We are seeing it in other parts, all over the city, to be frank. In my district, which is probably one of the wealthiest in the city, we've had these fires as well, or we've had them in other parts nearby to my district. I think anywhere, you have people that are bringing these bikes in, you have a potential danger, and especially when you walk into residential buildings with a lot of folks living in there, it could be really, really dangerous.

I do think you're seeing folks, as you know, that may have the means to buy the right appropriate batteries or certified batteries that might be relying on these, but my concern is just that they're out there and we need to get them off the streets and stop the sale of these illegal and uncertified batteries.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take some phone calls for New York City Council Member Keith Powers as we talk about e-bike fires, who's at risk, and how to prevent them. We'll also get into some of the other issues regarding micromobility, as it's called, and safety related to e-bikes. I see another city council member is going to be introducing a bill tomorrow if I'm reading this right, that's going to call for registration of e-vehicles and licensing. I'm going to ask you if you will support Council Member Holden's bill.

Listeners, if you want to call in on any of this, 212-433-WNYC. Call or text, 212-433-9692. Actually, there's some breaking news from just a few minutes before we went on the air. I assume you know about this, Council Member Powers, but I'm reading now from MarketWatch. It says, New York City Mayor Eric Adams said his administration is launching a new lithium-ion battery charging pilot program early in '24 that will allow an initial group of delivery workers to safely charge their bikes in public. Are you aware of this new program from the mayor?

Council Member Keith Powers: I am. I believe I'm even quoted in the press release on it. I did see it. We're obviously still getting all the details of the program, but I think it's the Charge Safe, Ride Safe program which will pilot being able to charge batteries at locations throughout the city, which means that ideally, you're not charging them inside your apartment anymore, you're charging them in a place where it's designated, that's safer, maybe, potentially, has some fire safety protocols in place.

There's actually some technologies, I think, that are already out there doing this. I think this is going to create a more formal pilot program for those.

Brian Lehrer: We're seeing electric vehicle, electric car charging ports rise up around the city now and around the world. You think we're going to see a lot of e-bike charging stations as well largely in pursuit of preventing these fires?

Council Member Keith Powers: I think it's definitely possible. I think you could see a couple of different things, an actual place where you can just bring your bike and charge it, or places where there's re-swappable batteries where you can put one into the locker, take another one out, and go on with your day. Some might be where you're actually charging, some might be where you're actually just swapping out a battery for a different battery.

Definitely, a creative idea for tackling this because as my legislation discusses, you're really at risk when you have unsafe, uncertified battery that also doesn't match the bike you're in. That's one way our bill is helping get them off the streets. Then you have this program, which would help create a process and a pathway as well. I think all good ideas to try to help tackle this crisis.

Brian Lehrer: Caroline in the Financial District, you're on WNYC. Hi, Caroline.

Caroline: Good morning. My next-door neighbor is a fireman. He told me just this week that there is no chemical retardant that will put out a lithium battery fire. It takes tons of water and that's the only thing. That's their only resource right now.

Brian Lehrer: Is that your understanding, council member?

Council Member Keith Powers: First of all, thank you, Caroline, in the Financial District. They are definitely very difficult fires to put out and there's a couple of things about it. One is they happen very, very quickly, they explode, so it's not a slow build-up. You can see videos of them that you can catch fire very quickly. In some cases, people with multiple bikes all charging at the same time, which was the case in my district, and they are difficult for the fire department to put out.

In addition, like I say this all the time, in addition to the person, the individual who's putting themselves into harm's way, they're putting in harm's way their neighbors, their family members, and of course, our firefighters who are heroes by putting these out. Yes, they're very difficult to put out and it can become a very quick fire, which makes it even more high risk.

Brian Lehrer: Vincent in the Bronx, you're on WNYC. Hi, Vincent.

Vincent: Hey, Brian. Love your show. Hey, I own an e-bike. I make deliveries all over Manhattan. Now, I can't anymore because my landlord does not want me to store my bike or charge it in the apartment. This is not just my landlord, I've seen it in many different buildings throughout the city, and also in Westchester County. The city wants us to become more e-mobile, but now, we have landlords that are going to put a stop to this because they're putting this into the lease, that you can't have any e-bikes being stored or charged in the apartments. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Vincent, thank you. Yes, I've heard this too. This is spreading, an increasing number of buildings won't allow tenants to have e-bikes, Council Member?

Council Member Keith Powers: It is. You can see some reason why. There's potentially putting in at risk the building itself and the other residents inside of it. It's a very tricky issue, and Vincent's right, which is we want folks to be able to do their duty here if they want to take a bike to work and commute. We also want people to be able to perform the work that he's doing as a job. It is becoming difficult because landlords are doing that. I think the pilot program being announced today does actually help with some of that because you, in some cases I believe will not have to actually take the battery home with you anymore. You might be able to do a swap out of the battery so that potentially could help our program.

Brian Lehrer: You won't necessarily have to store the battery in your home. If landlords are trying to prevent fires by not allowing e-bikes, that might be a way around it, especially for somebody like Vincent who as he was describing, makes his living that way.

Council Member Keith Powers: That's right. Also, by the way, having a city-certified program that we're setting up, that I set up to be able to trade them in, the dangerous ones for a safer one. That's also a way to hopefully go to your landlord and say, "Listen, I got one. It's from the city, it's safe, it's certified, it matches my bike." I think they're acting a lot on fear, but we certainly understand where they're coming from. I think we're trying to start giving tools to make people feel safer, which might help solve the problem that Vincent identified, but it's a very tricky balance to find here right now.

Brian Lehrer: Would you want to protect people's right to own an e-bike? Could that come up?

Council Member Keith Powers: To protect their right to own it, do you mean via having it in their apartment?

Brian Lehrer: Yes.

Council Member Keith Powers: We have to be careful until, I think, at a point where we feel like they're safe and certified, we might want to do that. Right now it's tricky because we have neighbors also who are really-- I'm hearing from neighbors or residents in buildings who feel unsafe right now not knowing who's bringing them into their buildings, so we get careful balance.

Brian Lehrer: More pushback, I think, from Jorge in Astoria. You're on WNYC. Hello, Jorge.

Jorge: Thank you for taking my call, Brian. Best show ever. Love it. Love it very much.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you.

Jorge: I just want to say that I'm a little upset that all e-bikes are being painted with the same broad brush. A lot of us who do have e-bikes like myself, I have about three of them. They're all legit. They all came from companies that are following the federal regulations on how batteries should be in the bike. We don't have these-- I don't buy these aftermarket or someone who built a battery. I actually have everything legit. I have a Mokwheel and I have a Aventon bike.

You can tell it's legit because the charger never gets hot at all, it stays cool. It has a power supply that has a voltage regulator that once the battery's charged, it cuts off. These are the people like myself who are very upset that every e-bike gets painted the same way, like, "Oh, there goes the guy with an e-bike, he's going to-- It's going to blow up." No, it's not true. It's not true. That needs to be also be told to the landlords, to the city, to any agency that is against e-bikes, because it is the future, we are here.

Brian Lehrer: What would you like to see, Jorge, if you've given this any thought that walks the line between preventing these fires that have caused 18 deaths in the city already this year according to the reporting? What you describe and what our previous caller, Vincent in the Bronx described as the necessity as well as the positive aspects of having e-mobility.

Jorge: You got to start with enforcement. If you know a location is selling aftermarket batteries that have no legit, whatever you want to call it, legal status, go after them, take away their batteries, confiscate them. Have some sort of a program where you direct any buyer to legit companies that have legit everything because they're the ones who are putting good bikes out there with good batteries out there. They even tell you, "When you reach a certain charge, it doesn't work anymore, come back to us, buy from us. We can help you."

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Jorge. Thank you very much. Keep calling us. Council Member, go.

Council Member Keith Powers: We did a law just to do that. We have a law on the books as of earlier this year that requires any store, any vendor selling bikes or batteries in New York City to be safe, UL-certified batteries, bikes, and equipment. That just went into effect. No longer can they sell these unsafe uncertified batteries. We did that, and I'm glad to hear that's a recommendation. The second part was my legislation, my new law, which goes into effect in mid-January, which will create a trade-in program so if you already have one we can't sell them anymore, but if you already have one, let's get that off the street as well.

We're not demonizing the folks who are doing this well, I'm glad Jorge is doing this the right way. There are folks, obviously, the numbers are showing it, the fires are showing it who are not. We're using tools not to penalize people or to do a catchall, but to give them tools to get the safe batteries on the streets, get the unsafe off. Today's announcement, I think goes even a step further on that.

Brian Lehrer: Do you want to tell people how to take advantage of the program and the bill that you got through city council? If people want to take advantage of an e-bike battery trade-in program, how do they do that?

Council Member Keith Powers: We are going to have some announcements on that probably end of December, maybe in the new year about the exact details of it. It goes into effect, I think around January 17th, I believe is the date, maybe January 20th. At that point in time, we're going to launch the exact details about where you can go, how you're trading it in, what the criteria is, so stay tuned we'll have an announcement on that soon.

Brian Lehrer: Lauren in the Bronx, you're on WNYC. Hi, Lauren.

Lauren: Hello. I'm on the same wavelength as your last caller who's talking about the importance of enforcement. My question is whether that would be valuable if it started earlier, meaning how about e-bike drivers and bicycle riders for that matter, having to get licenses, insurance, and registration just like motor vehicles because there's still no accountability or enforcement with the riders. I've seen bicycles and e-bikes they ride on the sidewalk, they go through red lights, they go the wrong way on a one-way street and nothing happens. I'm wondering if there's any way to start regulating the drivers themselves, and whether or not that might have an effect as it does on cars, for example, if your muffler doesn't work, you're not going to pass registration.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, or pass inspection. Lauren, thank you. That brings us to the new bill that I said I was going to ask you about anyway of exactly what Lauren's talking about. I understand because I got a press release that there's going to be a news conference tomorrow with City Council Member Bob Holden, among others from both parties. I'm seeing in supportive Holden's bill for a license plate and registration of e-vehicles largely because of the crashes that have taken place and people who've been hit on the street. Do you know about that bill and do you support it?

Council Member Keith Powers: I do know about that bill. I am a sponsor of the bill as it is, and I do think there are some ways. To what Jorge was saying about e-bikes, I want to make sure that the people who are using it safe and legally and doing the right thing have an opportunity here in the city to use it. It's a big part of our goals here in the city to reduce emissions, make it more transit-friendly, make it better commutes, to allow people to use different modes of transportation.

Also, we want people to do that in a safe way. Probably, the number one complaint I hear if you believe it in my district is about that exact issue, so we want to be able to have a way that makes it a bit safer out there for pedestrians while also continue to focus on our efforts to make it safer for everyone. I don't know about the press conference tomorrow, but I do know about the bill, I'm signed onto it as a sponsor. I think there's some reasonable tweaks we can make to that bill as we move forward, but I do hear from folks every day about their concerns out there.

Brian Lehrer: All right, let's get one more call in here. Carlos in Kew Gardens, Queens. You're on WNYC. Hi, Carlos. Carlos. Oh, I think I have to-- Sorry about that. Carlos, that was my error. I thought I had clicked you on and I hadn't, so why don't you start over?

Carlos: Oh, I think Laurie, the previous caller pretty much covered what I wanted to say, which is these e-bikes now, some of them resemble Vespas or even dirt bikes. I've seen bikes with ball tires. They pretty much-- I actually witnessed a hidden ring, which was pretty bad. I don't understand why you just don't require what you would need for like a motorcycle license. You'd have to take a road test, a written test, and get insurance and as far as the--

Brian Lehrer: Carlos, I got to go because we're out of time but I'm going to get a response to you from the council member but you got to tell us what's your dog's name.

Carlos: Calves. [laughs] He's a Chihuahua.

Brian Lehrer: Good dog, Calves. I like Chihuahuas. Carlos thank you very much. I guess to wrap up on all of this maybe there's a dilemma here councilman between regulating e-bikes on the road and e-bike batteries without falling into a moral panic about what can be a very pro-social technology both as an alternative to cars and for delivery workers to make decent livings, but as this technology is still relatively new and the risks are becoming apparent with crashes and fires, we've got to figure out the right way to do it and that's what falls on y'all at city council.

Council Member Keith Powers: You nailed it. Once again Brian Lehrer, summarized it better than I could myself. You absolutely nailed it. We have to find a very delicate balance here between safety and encouraging technology and encouraging folks to do something that we want them to be able to do. That's always the challenge is finding that exact mix. I'm confident we will be able to find the right appropriate safety measures and policies to reduce the e-bike fires as we were doing and to also encourage better and safer ways out there on the streets. That's our job and it's always good to hear from New Yorkers to remind us of all the different challenges out there.

Brian Lehrer: New York City Council member Keith Powers who represents District 4 and parts of Midtown and the Upper East Side. Thank you so much.

Council Member Keith Powers: Thank you.

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