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Brian Lehrer: Now call in for healthcare workers in New York State. Why? Because this is the morning that the vaccine mandate is taking effect for healthcare workers in New York State. Are you choosing to get fired rather than get vaccinated? If you're one of those people, call in and tell us why. 646-435-7280. 646-435-7280. Or for the majority of you who are vaccinated, does it look like you'll have a staff shortage with the unvaxxed in your ranks getting fired today? 646-435-7280. For New York State healthcare workers there's a big mystery around this right now. Governor Hochul even says she might have to call out the national guard to staff certain healthcare facilities depending on how many people refuse to get at least that first shot before they report to work today.

New York healthcare workers, give us a call, give us a report from the scene, if you've gotten to work already, or what are you hearing is going to be the case. Will it be staffing shortages where you are, will it threaten the health of patients, even their lives in your opinion or if you're one of the voluntarily unvaxxed, voluntarily fired today? Well, you wouldn't say voluntarily if you're being fired, I get that. Why is it important enough to you not to get vaccinated and lose your job as a healthcare worker in New York State? 646-435-7280. 646-435-7280.

Who's resisting getting the shot among healthcare workers in New York State? Well, the figures I've seen range from 77% to 84% of healthcare workers being fully vaccinated, but if those numbers are true and there certainly has been a rush to the pharmacists and the doctor's offices and stuff with this deadline taking effect. We don't know the number as of this morning, but if it's really about 20% of healthcare workers who are choosing to remain unvaccinated, well, that is going to be a staffing shortage. Are you one of the holdouts? Call us at 646-435-7280 and share your reasoning.

Is it about having had COVID and thinking you don't need a shot? Or about resisting any mandate from the government for what you put in your body or just these vaccines? Or are you one of the people who say I'm so healthy I won't get COVID? 646-435-7280. Or are you one of the people who will be forced to try and make up for your missing coworkers? Let's hear from you, 646-435-7280. healthcare workers in New York State if you've gotten vaccinated, and you know colleagues who, at least before today have not gotten vaccinated.

Have you had conversations with them? Have you had conversations with them since the mandate was announced? People have known today was coming. As the deadline, what kinds of conversations have you had with your colleagues if they've been resisting? How do you feel about either option, losing coworkers or working alongside the unvaccinated? 646-435-7280. 646-435-7280. Or you can tweet @BrianLehrer, and again, Governor Hochul isn't backing down. Instead, she's saying she'll declare a state of emergency allowing her to activate National Guard troops with healthcare training.

It's not like people are coming in with guns, that kind of National Guard activation. There are many people in the National Guard who have healthcare training and that's who the governor might actually be mobilizing to say, "National Guard members go to work in a hospital, or somewhere like that." She's also trying to get medical staff from other states and even countries from what I've read to step in. What are you seeing where you work? Or did any of that convince you to finally get your first shot? 646-435-7280. 646-435-7280, and we'll take your calls right after this.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer in WNYC now to your calls, if you're a healthcare worker in New York State, either working alongside unvaccinated people until today when those people are going to get fired by Governor Hochul, if they don't have at least one shot, or if you are one of those healthcare workers who'd rather get fired than get the vaccine. 646-435-7280. 646-435-7280. Margaret in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Margaret. Thanks so much for calling in.

Margaret: Hi, Brian. I really hope that some of the people that didn't get vaccinated call in because at least in my hospital those of us that are vaccinated don't feel comfortable approaching the people that we know aren't vaccinated. There haven't been conversations, at least that I'm aware of. It's so charged and tense.

Brian: Because it's uncomfortable.

Margaret: It's so uncomfortable and taboo, because to people that are vaccinated, at least that I know, we just don't understand. Why? How are you a person that is educated enough to be a healthcare provider and you've gotten-- You had to get vaccines to go to school. You had to get, pardon me, vaccines to work in the hospital. How are you not getting this vaccine? We don't see, "Oh, there are all these terrible things that happen if you get vaccinated." That hasn't happened, but we do see the terrible things that happen when you get COVID.

Brian: Well, it's one of the things--

Margaret: I really hope those people call in and explain, because I don't get it, and we're not talking to them.

Brian: Margaret, thank you for starting us off and so far, no, I will say. If you are a healthcare worker who is choosing not to get vaccinated, the majority of your colleagues would like to know why. Margaret says they can't even have conversations. You and she, and your other colleagues aren't even having conversations about this because it's so uncomfortable. If this is you call in and we'll take your call. Wayne in Queens. You're on WNYC. Hi, Wayne.

Wayne: Hey, how are you doing Brian? Like I said, I work in a hospital and most of us who had ambivalence with the vaccine to answer your previous caller this question. The fact that they're literally forcing it down our throat and a lot of us are not anti-vax, we just wanted to wait until we feel more comfortable. A lot of us who would not have taken the vaccine only took it because there's mandate. Now I know a few people who would die hard and not necessarily anti-vax but wasn't going to take it, but it got down to the witching hour and at a eleven o'clock at my hospital they said, if you don't get your first vaccine by today you're out of a job.

They had to bite the bullet and they took the shot on Friday. I told them welcome to the dark side as far as that was concerned, but like I said, I actually know somebody who's a healthcare worker who today she's not working because she is just so uncomfortable with it, and she is not anti-vax, but the fact that, like I said, they're literally pushing it down your throat. Now you're getting these alternate recommendations. Oh, get a booster shot. Now you get booster shot. In fact, I know people who have gotten the vaccine saying, "Oh, forget this with the booster shots every three, four, or five months. This is ridiculous." That's what's making people feel so uncomfortable.

Brian: I guess it certainly remains to be seen if that ever becomes a mandate, as opposed to just one shot of an initial dose, which is all it is right now. Let me ask you one question since it sounds like you at least have been having these conversations with coworkers who are choosing not to get vaccinated.

Wayne: Correct.

Brian: Considering how high the risk has been to healthcare workers who obviously have to work depending on what their particular jobs are, but for many of them having to work in settings where there's close contact with patients, a lot of patients these days have COVID, Delta variant, et cetera, and why do they consider the risk of the vaccine in some way greater than the risk of getting COVID?

Wayne: Well, it's not the fact they consider the risk of the vaccine so much as the fact that they're not letting us get our own comfort level. It's like they're forcing it. For example, a friend of mine who is not working now. She doesn't even go into the office. She works from home, but they're telling her, "No, you still need to get the vaccine."

Brian: Oh, really? Even working for home.

Wayne: Even working from home.

Brian: Before there was the mandate, there was the initial choice when a lot of people, myself included, I will admit, when the vaccine was first developed and we had heard all these horrible stories about doctors and nurses and home health aides, and people work in nursing homes and everything on the front lines and getting it at higher rates than the general population, dying in higher rates than the general population. Then we see that healthcare workers, no more than any other groups, weren't so exposed, were initially declining.

Wayne: That should say something because I actually knew a respiratory nurse and when the vaccine first came out, she said, "I'm not taking this yet." She was intubating these people, she works around them and she was saying. The main issue I had, I took it, because like I said, I took the Johnson and Johnson one and done. I didn't feel like going through this stuff multiple times. I didn't take it when it first came out. I was telling people, not that I wasn't going to take it, but I would rather have had it done in my timeline than when they are forcing it on you.

Brian Lehrer: I saw a lot of people like that.

Wayne: I tried to tell certain people now I said, "Listen, think of it this way. How many people died from COVID in general?" Like a million people, roughly. I said, "Out of a country of 350 million people, that's less than half of 1%. Now, how many people have problems with the COVID vaccine, bad problems. According to the government's numbers, it's like 50,000."

I said, "Let's go by the assumption that the government is totally lying to us, that it's not 50,000, it's 250,000 that had issues with the COVID vaccine." 250,000 out of 220 million people who have gotten the shot, that's still less than 1%. I said whether you don't take the shot and get COVID, it's less than 1%, and if you do take the shot, something happens 1%. Either way, it's like somebody told me about having car insurance in New York, hoping you won't ever get into a car accident.

He said it's not an issue of if you get into a car accident, it's when. Same thing with this COVID vaccine, I told them, I said, "Listen, it's not an issue of if you're going to take the vaccine, it's when and at what point are you going to take the vaccine."

Brian Lehrer: Wayne, I'm going to go to some other folks on. Thank you so much for your call. Please call us again. I really appreciate it. I think that the numbers of dead from COVID in this country now approaching 700,000. Whoever had whatever reactions to the vaccine, there's nothing like even the 50,000 number that he cited to officially have had reactions who are dying from it. Just to be clear about some of those stats. Lisa in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Lisa, thank you so much for calling in. You did allow yourself to be fired over this?

Lisa: Yes, I did. I'm working from home. I've been working from home for the last year and a half. I'd had COVID. It was unpleasant for sure. This is a ridiculous state. It's just I'm working from home so I sent-- Forgive me, I haven't slept much last night but I heard that the calling was happening. My clarity may not be that great. Last night, I got up to see my refusal for religious exemption, which is what I submitted because I'm not comfortable with any vaccines for so many reasons, including religious.

I got the blanket refusal to my exemption request which was they call it the request for accommodation. There's just no way they can let me work from home due to administrative needs and business needs. There's just no way that I can perform my duties from home and yet I've been doing it for the last year and a half.

Brian Lehrer: If you really have a religious exemption, what religion is it?

Lisa: It is just a general Judeo-Christian view. You don't have to have a particular religion, it's just my view of the way the body works, the way God created the body perfectly in his image, and the way there's no way human beings can understand the complexity of God's creation to fix it, to somehow improve upon it. I truly believe this.

Brian Lehrer: Did you refuse to get the polio vaccine or smallpox vaccine? [crosstalk]

Lisa: I was a child when I got the polio vaccine. I have not vaccinated my own daughter for the entire 20 years of her life. That is my case, but I don't want to focus on that and seem like some kind of weirdo because that's what I've been hearing on your show. Frankly, I have not been pleased with the reporting on this show. I think it's hugely biased toward the vaccine and so if you want to ask me something else, I'm--

Brian Lehrer: I'll ask you one other thing and I will hear your critique of the show, and probably you have the same critique of a lot of media, what I would say is, what we are reporting on is the science as opposed to a lot of disinformation that's going on out there.

Lisa: I [unintelligible 00:15:48] that.

Brian Lehrer: I will call it disinformation if people are putting out things that are wrong on purpose-- [crosstalk]

Lisa: I get that. I would like to say no. There are studies that are coming out of other countries. Why do we trust-- These are the drug companies and then this is the US government basically in bed with the drug companies. Why do we trust them? Did we trust them when they said that the opioids were not addictive? We certainly called them on that. There's so much dishonesty, so much corruption in our country. These statistics, I do not think reflect reality. These "information" and this science, we've got science coming out of other countries which are obviously not quite as biased apparently that say that people-- Why aren't we recognizing that?

Brian Lehrer: Wait, what is the so-called science? Forgive me if this sounds like I'm being unfair to you, but what is this so-called science coming out of other countries when the World Health Organization, the vast-- I can't even say vast majority. There is real-world experience with all of these vaccines that you refuse to take or give your kids that show that they are safe and effective and have prevented countless millions of people from dying of all kinds of things and you want to write it all off as a pharmaceutical industry conspiracy.

Lisa: Let's say it's safe and effective. Let's just, for the benefit of the doubt, let's say it's safe and effective, because that is what they're saying, right? Many of the vaccines may be a lot safer and more effective than this one. This one is still very much experimental. People have arguments on that saying, "Oh, no, no, this has been invented for years. This has been developed over the years."

Brian Lehrer: They've been working on the mRNA-based technology. The last question, Lisa, for you. If you see this as so experimental as to whether it's safe or not, do you also disbelieve the stats that well over 90% of the people being hospitalized for COVID now or dying of COVID now are the unvaccinated showing that the vaccinations are highly effective?

Lisa: No, I do disbelieve that because I think that what's coming out of other countries is not reflective. It's not the same information that's coming out of here, which I feel backs up my religious views. Let me just say that--

Brian Lehrer: What country for example, by the way, just so I know?

Lisa: Israel.

Brian Lehrer: Israel is the most aggressively vaccinated-- [crosstalk]

Lisa: Exactly. They're not being allowed to go into Sweden. Why? Because Sweden apparently has-- Look at Sweden, didn't have to be done this way. Sweden has an excess death rate of 7.7% whereas most other countries around the world have way higher excess death rates. They handle it completely different. Israel cannot go into Sweden because their COVID rate is so high. The vaccine is not helping people against the Delta variant, apparently, according to them, according to their numbers.

Brian Lehrer: It's just so wrong. The Israeli hospitals, we've covered it, this is why they're mandating the boosters over there so quickly because they saw the rates of COVID go up again and what's not going up is the rates of hospitalizations and deaths among the vaccinated in Israel. I admit I don't know what Sweden is doing but it certainly is an exception if it's what you describe. I think Sweden has also been very compliant in terms of social distancing and other things that we didn't do so well here that prevented the pandemic from taking hold as much there, but Lisa I really appreciate your call. I appreciate your willingness.

I know you said you didn't sleep last night, knowing you were getting fired today, and I appreciate your courage in calling up and having this conversation, as misinformed as I think you are. Thank you very much for your call. We'll take one more Carrie in the Bronx, you're on WNYC. Hi, Carrie.

Carrie: Yes. Good morning. I'm a frontline worker, I'm working at a major hospital in the Bronx, and I'm just dumbfounded by people not getting vaccinated. 90% to 95% of our patients that are with COVID now are unvaccinated or young, it's just so sad to see. I worked through COVID 2020. I got COVID, by the grace of God, it was a mild case, I'm immunocompromised, I've even gotten my booster. Listening to some of my colleagues, there's misinformation that there is fetus is in the, that's what one person is standing up saying, "Well, I'm not getting it, they have fetuses in the vaccine." I was like, "What?"

It's just so unbelievable, and I'm just dumbfounded. I try to talk to people, but it's very difficult. I want to get along with people, but they are-- I know my hospital is preparing for sick outs and people not coming in and such, because they're concerned about people still refusing to get the vaccine.

Brian Lehrer: How is the hospital preparing and do you think you're going to need medical workers from other states as governor Hochul has talked about, maybe even other countries or National Guard troops to be called in those who have medical training?

Carrie: I don't know. I just noticed there's certain things like by now they would have started our influenza vaccine. A lot of nurses do that, and they haven't, I think they were holding back to anticipating some of these difficulties and there may be shortages. I think there's certain projects that they might have gone ahead with that maybe they're holding on to in anticipation. I haven't heard anything about mobilizing external forces at this point or staff at this point but I just know, and listening to discussions on the unit and with preparing for this day, and that anticipating some difficulties, potential difficulties.

Brian Lehrer: Carrie, good luck out there. Thank you very much for your call, and there we leave it for now, on this first day of the healthcare workers vaccination mandate in New York State, obviously, we will keep a close eye in the coming days as to what happens in terms of staff shortages, or any other ramifications of people not getting their shots.

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