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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. We began today with it being time to call your Senator. That's what we say. When New York Senator Kiersten Gillibrand joins us once a month to answer my questions and yours. So New Yorkers call your Senator (646) 435-7280. People outside New York may call to on some of the national issues we discuss with Senator Gillibrand, but New Yorkers will get most of the slots.

So call your Senator (646) 435-7280, (646) 435-7280, or tweet your Senator, but tweet at me @BrianLehrer. Today we'll get into the presidential transition and ongoing resistance to it. The desperately needed coronavirus relief bill and whether there's any hope before January for that. Of course, whatever you call about, (646) 435-7280 or tweet @BrianLehrer. Senator Gillibrand, hi, welcome back to WNYC.

Gillibrand: Hi Brian, how are you?

Brian: I'm good. Thank you. Let's start here, early yesterday evening, the general services administrator, Emily Murphy, after weeks of inaction, finally declared Joe Biden the apparent winner of the election. Trump still hasn't conceded, and in fact said his legal case "strongly continues" in his tweet that unleashed the GSA to begin the transition. It did also say the GSA should "do what needs to be done with regard to initial protocols." What do you make of Trump's acknowledging that there's going to be a new administration in January and sort of not.

Gillibrand: Well, this sort of nonsense is more of the same that we've heard from him. He's been acting like a child and unwilling to understand, and to actually acknowledge that the election is over and Joe Biden won. The GSA's acknowledgement of President-elect Biden's victory is really important. It's welcome, it's necessary and finally it allows the flow of information.

President-elect, Joe Biden is entitled to the security briefings, to understanding what's happening with COVID relief, understanding what's happening in agencies. Now all that work can begin full force, which is really, really important from a national security perspective and for a vice-president or President-elect Biden's plan to actually put in place a vaccination plan and a COVID release plan.

Brian: There are worries that the Trump campaign they are still trying to throw the election into Congress. As you understand it, what would the Senate's potential role be, should that occur. Do you have any indication that Senator McConnell would resist the temptation to disenfranchise millions of people in cities like Detroit and Philadelphia and Milwaukee and Atlanta, if they get that far?

Gillibrand: I think they will not get that far. I think that is absolutely ludicrous. I think there's no chance of that happening. I think the fact that the GSA and all the States have already certified the election. That is the important moment in time that shows that President-elect Biden is the next president and there will be a transition on January 20th. I don't think it can go to Congress, given the certifications and because the GSA has already done their ascertainment.

Brian: All right, well, we'll see if that's right, they are still trying. Joe Biden's first cabinet picks are expected to be announced today officially. Yesterday, it was reported that he will name Anthony Blinken as Secretary of State. He's also expected to name Linda Thomas-Greenfield for ambassador to the UN and reelevate that to a cabinet level position. Alejandro Mayorkas for Homeland Security Secretary. Seeing those early picks what's your reaction and what are you anticipating about how Joe Biden will create a cabinet that looks enough like America?

Gillibrand: Well, I'm actually super excited. I know a lot of these cabinet appointments very well. I've worked with them for the last 10 years and so these are some of the brightest minds of this generation. I think he's put forward a team of experienced, crisis tested leaders that we desperately need. They have diverse backgrounds and fresh perspectives. They're the kind of nominees that have the experience and qualifications that they are ready to lead on the first day.

I'm excited about it and I think each one of the nominations so far are extremely strong in terms of background and experience. They'll be able to start doing the hard work of rebuilding institutions that Donald Trump has destroyed. I think they can renew and re-imagine America's leadership in the world. I think they're going to be vital for keeping America safe at home and re-establishing our role as very much in the center of how to keep global and regional stability.

That's a role that president Trump didn't want. He refused to participate and in fact he walked away from the global leadership that we had already established. Like on the Paris climate accord, like on national security with the Iran deal, like on middle East peace. Those are the kinds of things that unfortunately Trump has really disrupted. I think this is the kind of team that President Biden can put in place that can restore it.

Brian: One pick that people are noticing is John Kerry for a kind of climate czar position. I don't think czars is in the title, but that's what people are calling it, which be a newly created post. What can you tell us about that?

Gillibrand: Well, I think it's very precious and also the right pick. John Kerry has some of the most robust foreign policy experience in America. Seeing global climate change and tackling as a worldwide international priority I think is exactly the right frame. I also think he will get to serve on the national security council and showing the global climate change is the greatest threat to America is a really important statement.

It should be seen in the realm of threats and security and so I think John Kerry is the best person to do that. He also knows world leaders personally. He's been traveling the globe his entire life. I most recently spent time with him at the Munich National Security Conference just before COVID started. That was a moment where his presence really mattered and I think he will do a great job going in in this role.

Brian: There's been buzz about whether or not you're in the running for any appointment. You said you currently have no plans to join the cabinet, but has the transition team come knocking?

Gillibrand: They have not, and I'm super excited to be your Senator and he can see to be a partner for President-elect Biden so we can get good legislation done. Just to recover from COVID is going to take enormous amounts of bi-partisan work, like creating health force, like creating postal banking. Like dealing with the massive unemployment and making sure that job guarantee is something we can work towards, where people can actually get the training they need to be employed. Those are the kinds of priorities I have that I would love to work with Biden administration on actually realizing.

Brian: Let's take our first call and let's see if I'm going to say this caller's name right? Is it Ann Britt in East Chester, you're on WNYC with Senator Gillibrand. Hello.

Ann Britt: Hi there, Brian. I love your show, I listen to every day. You were close, it's Ann Britt. Hello, Senator. I actually just wrote you yesterday. First of all, thank you for everything that you do for us. The reason I wrote you is I am a musician in local 802. I'm a Broadway conductor and pianist. I was conducting Frozen on Broadway and Broadway was sent home on March 12th and a lot of people are existing on unemployment right now. The $600 a week was a help except it went away in July, and we've heard nothing since then.

There's a lot of desperate people out there. There's a lot of people, musicians and actors and actors equity that are going to lose their health insurance soon because they don't have a job to pay for it. We've just heard nothing. It's an industry that gives the State and New York City something like $14 billion a year. We feel like we've been hung out to dry, there's nothing being said. I wrote yesterday to you just asking for some help and asking for somebody to address it in some way. That's why I wanted to call.

Gillibrand: Well, thank you for calling in and I can hear it in your voice the amount of stress and anxiety that you're going through, and New Yorkers in general are going through with you. Our biggest industries like Broadway, like music, like restaurants, like tourism have been gutted and laid bare, because the relief packages that we put forward so far, don't actually address the need. For example, most of the small business relief packages, you have to hire everybody back. That doesn't work if you can't fill a theater, it doesn't work if you can't fill a restaurant.

You can't hire everybody back. You could maybe higher percentage of your workforce back. That's why I wrote a bill with Senator Schumer and others. We worked on a bill to do direct relief to your industry, to stages, to musicals, to all of the arts and entertainment industry. I visited a bunch of them throughout New York to hear directly from those venues. This would provide grants, it would provide direct relief. You wouldn't have to pay it back, especially if you planned on reopening, [unintelligible 00:10:32]. It's a very flexible program.

That's the kind of thing we hope to pass under the Biden administration. We've not had a partner in Mitch McConnell. Mitch McConnell had two versions coming from the house, a big package and a smaller package, and he wouldn't negotiate either of them. We've been stuck. We have an opportunity to win the Senate still in Georgia so I'm hopeful that there's a chance.

Even if we don't, the important thing is that now we have a president in the White House who cares. Who's willing to work with Congress to come up with some really strong bipartisan relief for your industry and all the other industries that are suffering. We've written legislation that's ready to go, to do direct relief to your industry and the restaurant industry that was written with the help of the professionals that serve in that industry.

Brian: It's going to take until after the inauguration, you think?

Gillibrand: Well if we're lucky we could do-- President-elect Biden has said, "I'd rather have something now more than everything." Maybe we can get a package together. The package that Mitch McConnell wrote is not only a non-starter, it's just not well done. That's not the kind of relief that our caller just asked for, direct relief for tourism venues, for music venues and for theater. He didn't write it that way. The legislation that Chuck Schumer and others and I worked on is the right approach and that will have to be part of probably a larger package, but we'll try.

The truth is everyone is suffering. People are without income. All the unemployment insurance runs out at the end of the year. You can't think of a worse time to be out of work during the holidays. The need is still grave and so great that all of us, particularly on the Democratic side are committed to trying to accomplish something by the end of the year.

Brian: Elizabeth in Inwood you're on WNYC was Senator Kirsten Gillibrand. Hello, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth: Hi, thanks for taking my call. Thank you, Senator, for your service to our state and our country. That previous caller was a good segue into my question. Talk to me about the politics and the strategy of what this new Senate is going to look like, which is probably still going to be controlled by Mitch McConnell. Even if we're lucky and we get those two wins in Georgia, it's going to be a razor thin margin. How is that going to work?

Gillibrand: The most important thing under both scenarios is bipartisanship. One of the things that I focus on as your Senator is reaching across the aisle. It's why the 9/11 Health Bill, we were able to pass it over the last decade three times unanimously. Because it is the kind of bill that shouldn't be partisan. COVID relief is the kind of bill that shouldn't be partisan. I know people are suffering in all 50 States all across the country and so our job is to listen to our Republican colleagues, find the common ground and move forward on whatever we can.

I think that's possible. I think this election was an opportunity for the American people to be heard. The overwhelming victory for Joe Biden, Kamala Harris sent a message that we want change, and we want to get things done. Hopefully we can inspire Mitch McConnell to work more often with us, better with us and allow more of these solutions to get a vote. Our biggest challenge is, even though I write bipartisan bills all the time and they're ready to go, he doesn't give us a vote.

We're going to have to work on him and inspire him to solve problems and COVID relief is the first and most important thing we have to do. We need money for city and state. We need unemployment insurance renewed. We need money for housing and for food. People are still around the block, all across New York city at food banks for miles at a time in Upstate New York in cars. That's what the reality is for so many families.

With Thanksgiving later this week the pressure on families is just unbearable. All I can tell you is my commitment to be extremely bipartisan, to find the common ground and build from there. Because that's the only way we're going to get a bill to vote on and it's the only way we're going to get money into our families, into our communities, into our state.

Brian: I don't think there's any realistic chance that President Biden will find a way to work with McConnell. Let's assume for the moment that the Republicans hold the Senate to work with McConnell. Or maybe work around McConnell through some other Republican senators who Biden has long relationships with. Because the history that I think you'll agree with of the last 12 years or so, is that Barack Obama was elected as a president who came in saying there was no Red America, no Blue America.

He came in with bipartisan proposals on healthcare, and climate change and things like that that had Republican support originally. Then McConnell just put up a brick wall and made his main goal to make sure that Obama was the least successful president that he could possibly make him. Why think that that will or will not happen in exactly the same way with Joe Biden.

Gillibrand: Well, the margin is smaller, so that's one change. I think that the reality of COVID is so severe across the country and all the experts are telling us, it's not going to get better over these next two months. Not until we have really accessible vaccines, do we change the trajectory. I just hope that the reality of life for people in Kentucky weighs on him.I also believe that Joe has really good relationships with Republican senators. Hopefully some of those relationships will bleed over into this administration.

Joe served in the Senate, almost his entire adult life, so he has deep, deep relationships and he only need to flip a few. I have great relationships with Lisa Murkowski, with Susan Collins. I'm developing one with Mitt Romney. Those are more moderate senators who would be likely willing to side with us on COVID relief, on the things that aren't partisan, on the things that aren't ideologic. I'm a little more optimistic than I was under President Obama, because first of all, the moment we're in is very different and we have an opportunity to really heal the country. It's been such a divisive decade. I'm just hopeful that we are now at a turning point where we could start rebuilding.

Brian: Other than COVID relief, how do you see the federal response to the virus changing once Biden is inaugurated? What is it that could actually be done at the federal level that would actually make a difference in the spread of the virus and the prevention of the worst outcomes from the virus? Because when we look at Europe where things are really bad right now, they don't have a denying Donald as prime ministers over there, it's usually the title in Europe and yet things are awful. What is it that the US federal government could actually do that would be different under Joe Biden starting January 20th?

Gillibrand: Well, first and foremost Joe Biden will listen to scientists and medical experts and we'll put in place the most well-informed plan. Unfortunately, President Trump never listened to the experts, demeaned the experts, undermined the experts, and constantly sent mixed messages to the country. Under Joe Biden, first of all, who encouraged people saving lives is important. Wearing mask saves lives. You will make the very common sense statements from the highest office in the land. From the biggest bully pulpit there is that wearing masks save lives, social distancing saves lives, being careful for the vulnerable.

He will also use the Defense Production Act I believe in a way that Trump was never willing to do. We need to make sure we have all the resources to have rapid testing. We've had such a hard time keeping our schools open and keeping our schools safe because we don't have rapid testing in every school. If we have rapid testing and every school, kids could be tested regularly, teachers could be tested regularly.

The community could create a bubble and you could make schools stay open and stay safe at the same time. That's something that president Trump was never willing to do.He never guaranteed that the US would manufacture the swabs and the reagents, the test kits. That we wouldn't backlogs and choke holds of stuff coming from China. We need to build everything here.

Then third, the vaccinations are almost ready. They have very high percentage of success rate. President Biden will create a vaccination plan that will be robust. Hopefully he will work with me on developing a health force where we can have hundreds of thousands of workers who are healthcare workers trained so they can do vaccine distribution. We can use pharmacies, we can use technology, we have refrigeration challenges, but we can solve those challenges.

Those are the kinds of challenges that America's built for. We can figure it out and once we have a thorough and very viable plan for distribution, you're going to begin to see a change. That might take us a full three or four months to get it up and running but I believe Joe Biden has put the people around him in place are smart enough and tough enough and creative enough to solve this problem. There's nothing America can't do if they put their mind to it, and that's just a stance that president Trump was never willing to take.

I actually feel extremely optimistic that in this moment, Joe Biden will take control of manufacturing, he will take control of production and distribution. He will create the workforce through the millions of people who are unemployed, through training that he can create to our community colleges and our state schools. To create this workforce, to work for the CDC and to work for the governors and work for the state, to get these vaccinations distributed. We can do this, I know we can and it is hard, but it's the thing that America is built for.

Brian: Here is Rick, a business owner in Brooklyn. Rick you're on WNYC with Senator Gillibrand. Hi there.

Rick: Hi. Hi, Senator Gillibrand. Thank you so much for your service and I appreciate you taking my call today. I run a event marketing that's based in Lower Manhattan. We are an event marketing company and obviously we've been hit very hard by COVID. We were lucky enough to receive a PPP loan, back in April, which was great and very helpful for us. We used the proceeds for that loan to keep employees, pay our rent and do things like that.

I have been told by my accountant that right now, the IRS is still viewing the loan proceeds as something that are not tax deductible. Whereas they have been used for regular business expenses, which normally are tax deductible and I don't think that was the intention of Congress when they passed the CARES Act. This could put my company and other companies in position where we're looking at a really significant tax burden at a time when we're already suffering. I'm hoping that there's some work coming up that could help fix this with the IRS. Could you speak about that [crosstalk]

Gillibrand: That's a great idea. I think that's really wise and smart. I appreciate the fact that you have kept your business open and that you've done all the things you can to keep it working and your employees and our economy going, so thank you for that hard work. I think your idea is very, very smart. I will work with my team on how we can figure out perhaps in the next COVID package that that could be fixed, because it should absolutely be a business expense. We don't want businesses to have massive burdens coming out of COVID because if they do, they won't survive. I will take a look at what you said and if you could give Brian your contact information, my staff will call you so that we can get more details.

Brian: Rick, we will take your contact information off the air, just hang on. Jeff in New Rochelle, you're on WNYC with Senator Gillibrand. Hi Jeff.

Jeff: Hi, good morning Brian, good morning Senator. I'm a little concerned about what I see as a trend in Mossad support for Israel in the Democratic caucus. Here in Westchester County, we lost Eliot Engel, Nita Lowey has retired. We look at Congresswomen, Tlaib, Omar and AOC of course. It seems like support of Israel is becoming viewed as a right-of-center issue. I'm afraid that the Democratic Party is moving away from beyond this issue. Care to comment on that perception please?

Gillibrand: You're saying that you think the Democratic Party is becoming anti-Israel, is that what your statement was?

Jeff: I'm afraid that when I look at some of the local races, when I listened to some of the younger blood that's coming into the Party, no offense to you or me. I see a lot of outspokenness against supporting Israel. I see-

Gillibrand: Yes, okay.

Jeff: Opposition to the two-state solution. Again, I know these are complicated issues and I don't like Netanyahu. I fear that eventually the Democratic Party may move away from him in terms of support for Israel.

Gillibrand: Well, I don't think it will. I am a stalwart supporter of Israel. I believe they are our greatest friend and ally in the Middle East and the only Democracy. Having a strong relationship with Israel ultimately is very good for not only the region, but also for world peace and the United States national security. That view is largely supported by most people I know in the Senate, Democrats and Republicans, and I do think there's so much common ground.

I think some of the push back that you're hearing from newer members, is that they don't like the tactics of what Prime Minister Netanyahu has done. They don't like the annexations, they don't like the different elements of his agenda that seemed to make a two-state solution impossible. I understand why you have concern, but the truth is I think every Democrat I know is for a two-state solution. If there's a few that aren't, I would certainly listen to what their perspective is, but the two-state solution is the solution for ultimate peace in the Middle East and independence for the Palestinians.

It's going to take time. I think Joe Biden believes in that and I think he will work towards that. I think there is a lot of common ground. I think people all share the view that, we want to protect Israel, create a path to peace and work on a two-state solution. I think that's where we can focus our interests. I do believe you have the bipartisan support you need to have a strong relationship with Israel, but also to have a strong national security plan that is part of it.

I think one thing Joe Biden has said that I think is very useful, is that he wants to renew discussions on the Iran deal. Ultimately, that is a path to peace in the Middle East because you want to keep Israel safe from nuclear threats. The Iran deal is one of the best ways to do that, because once you have the inspectors on the ground. You get to inspect centrifuges, you get to inspect all the facilities, you get to inspect the minds and have constant oversight over those sites.

That was one of the best things that our national security advisor said would be needed to keep Iran from ever having a nuclear weapon. I think in Joe Biden you're going to see strong leadership and the leadership that leads us towards Middle East peace and I think he can bring the party behind him. I understand your thoughts, but, I do think ultimately we believe in a stable and peaceful Middle East.

Brian: Jeff, thank you for your call. How do you get back into the Iran deal? Have you thought this through? Is it through just reentering? Is it through negotiating new terms?

Gillibrand: You have to negotiate.

Brian: Maybe president Trump exposed some of the weaknesses in the deal from the US perspective and now you negotiate around those and see if he can get Iran to go, how do you do it?

Gillibrand: My perspective on this is you need to re-engage our allies first and foremost, something that president Trump has not done and has actually strained. We need to talk to get back to the table with Russia and China, as well as the EU. Make sure that we can have commonality that having Iran deal is ultimately safer for the world. Second, you need to negotiate new parameters. There were shortcomings to the first Iran deal. It was short in time, so you'd want to have longer timelines. You'd want to have much more rigorous requirements on using resources towards terrorism.

Some of the missile technology that Iran continues to develop is very dangerous. If you can integrate those additional ideas into the next agreement, make it a much longer term agreement. But get the world community again, in line with the United States, that's where you start. Start with your allies, find commonality there, then reach out to Iran, ask for renewed conversations. Iran is not our friend, they are dangerous, they invest billions of dollars in terrorism, they are a destabilizing force. I do believe is worth the effort to try to reinstate sanctions, bring everyone back to the table and begin to figure out how to create long-term plans for peace and stability.

Brian: I know you've got to go in about two minutes, here's a question from a listener.

Gillibrand: One point, I think Tony Blinken is a perfect person to be the secretary of state to help us in that goal, as is the entire national security team. The ambassador to the UN choice, couldn't be better. These individuals are people who truly understand foreign policy and have frankly dedicated their lives to it. I think, President-elect like Biden, has put together the A team to actually create that opportunity for restoring our stand in the world. Restoring the view that we are not only competent, but we are essential to leading in the world, but also to a path towards peace.

Brian: Closing question from a listener via Twitter, it says, "Senator, what are the Democrats planning to do nationally to lay to rest the Trump lie, that the election was stolen? As you know rhetorically they could use this lie for the next four years to further suppress votes, oppose everything, take the Senate in two years and the White House in four."

Gillibrand: I think reality will set in, as we begin to create the transition that will happen in January, as President-elect Biden continues to name his cabinet. I think the American people will begin to understand this election is over and the people have chosen. President-elect Biden had millions of more votes than Trump and had a substantial larger number of electoral college votes. That's reality. I think President Trump will continue to distract, but he's not going to have the microphone anymore.

It will not be the norm anymore to cover everything President Trump says, and to discuss all his tweets. I think the norm will be to focus again now on the President-elects and the policies of the United States. What things we need to do to rebuild our economy and to help create opportunities for peace worldwide. That'll be the focus of the American people and he will no longer have the spotlight or the limelight. I think he has lost a lot of support among rank and file Republicans anyway.

I think there's definitely a divide within the party at this point and hopefully that divide will grow. That he will continue to diminish in prominence so that we don't have a person who has set his entire life on dividing the country. The division, the hate, the homophobia, the antisemitism, the bigotry that has arisen out of the Trump presidency is one of the most destructive, dangerous parts of the Trump presidency. That's the part that Joe Biden will begin to heal. His whole campaign was about healing, the soul of America. I think he is up to the task and I'm going to help him. I'm going to work on good bipartisan ideas that bring us back together again. He'll try in answer to the question, but I think he will fail.

Brian: Senator Kirsten Gillibrand. Thanks as always. Happy Thanksgiving.

Gillibrand: Happy Thanksgiving. Stay safe, Brian.

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