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Brian: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now our monthly Call Your Senator segment. My questions and yours for our visit with New York Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, who among other things just spent nine days overseas in Poland and elsewhere during this war in Ukraine era. Remember Gillibrand is on the Armed Services Committee, as one of her major roles. Poland is in the news today in a new way in this war. We'll ask her about this. Russia is cutting off gas sales to Poland because Poland won't buy it in Rubles.

Economic blackmail you might call it against a NATO member, just as the US is getting more directly involved by sending more weaponry to Ukraine. If you have questions for Senator Gillibrand about world affairs or affairs in your neighborhood that a US Senator might address, she's also got an op-ed in the Journal News, which serves Westchester and Rockland calling for more federal support for public schools in ways that students most need after two years of the pandemic, that's in the Journal News today. Our lines are open at 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Tweet a question for Senator Gillibrand, tweet @BrianLehrer. Hi, Senator. Always good to have you. Welcome back to WNYC.

Senator Kirsten Gillibrand: Thanks, Brian.

Brian: In case you heard my promo for this segment, just going into the break, the reason I called you KG is because Eric Adams, in his speech yesterday said just like FDR did a lot of good things, ELA is going to do a lot of things. I think he's hoping people are going to be so familiar and so happy with him that they're going to call him ELA for the rest of history. We were having fun with initials. Anyway--

Senator Gillibrand: I like the fun with initials and if you really want to go for it, my middle name is Elizabeth. My initials are K-E-G, which otherwise stands for KEG.

Brian: I guess that might have been the source of some joking around in college, maybe.

Senator Gillibrand: I wasn't Gillibrand then. It wasn't applicable. That's my married name.

Brian: There you go. All right, I want to ask about several of the stops on your trip, but Poland is really caught in the middle as the country next door taking all those refugees and having warplanes that Ukraine wants. Now the cutoff of gas sales from Russia. What did you learn on your trip to Poland?

Senator Gillibrand: It was really important for us to meet with the 82nd Airborne who is fully deployed right now to Poland, to do logistics and support, to provide resolve and all the munitions and other weaponry that the Ukrainians need. The men and women who are serving there are extremely committed to helping the Ukrainians win this war. They know that the Ukrainians will fight to the very end, they aspire to win, and we are trying to give them the tools they need to do so. It was extremely inspiring because these men and women have been there now for a couple months, they intend to stay until through the year.

They will be there as long as the Ukrainians need them. We also met with some of our allies and talked about what the joint operations look like, and it was an important stop for our delegation. We also were able to meet with Ukrainian civil society, some advocates through Not for Profits, and governing authorities within Ukraine women, in particular, met with us and they told us the things that they really want from America, additional weapons, additional munitions, and also just words of support that they want us to understand that their goal is to win. They want us to focus on what we will do to help them to win. I thought that was really important that they need the psychic help as well of just constantly standing up to Russia and pushing back against Russia's ambition and violence.

Brian: On helping Ukraine win, which is their new ramped-up goal with some of the success they have had in holding off Russian troops despite the horrible massacres of civilians and others that the Russians are succeeding and undertaking, as a member of the Armed Services Committee, what do you think? It sounds like you're supportive from that first answer, but about increasing commitments by the US and some of our Western allies to send more weapons to Ukraine as President Zelensky has been asking for it to try to actually win the war. Russia threatens that it could actually become World War III, if we have American heavy weapons attacking Russian soil.

What is the US changing and do you as someone who staunchly stood by your convictions on getting out of the war in Afghanistan have any reservations about getting more involved in this?

Senator Gillibrand: We intend to continue to support the Ukrainian people with military support and with other aid and humanitarian relief. Interestingly also during this trip, we went to Berlin and met with our NATO allies and particularly members of the Bundestag and we talked a lot about the ways that NATO particularly can continue to support Ukraine and this wake-up call that we as a nation and we as a world community have with this extreme decision by Russia to invade a neighboring sovereign country. That in of itself changed people's worldviews. Russia was not investing in military equipment and military capabilities.

Russia had-- excuse me, Germany is now investing in military equipment and capabilities. Germany previously was very much tied to Russia for its fuel, for a lot of economic investment and they are having to reorder how they see the future. That reordering is really important because the ambition of Russia is not dissimilar from the ambition of China. We are very concerned that as Russia continues to push and destroy and harm civilians and bomb schools and bomb hospitals, that if America and NATO don't stand strong against Russia, it will send a message to China that they can invade Taiwan anytime they want, and no one will do anything. It is a fine line.

We do not want to start World World War III. We do not want to encourage Russia to start World War III. We do not want to have Putin become more unhinged and more unstable and so pushing back on what we can do for the Ukrainians by giving them material support for them to use is the best we can do without, I think, overstepping the line of being escalatory in a way that Putin decides then to start World War III.

Brian: On that news about Poland and Russia today, do you understand why Russia cares if Poland buys gas in Rubles or Dollars or some other currency, isn't money all money and they can exchange the Dollars for Rubles anyway? Like if we travel overseas, we have to change our money to the local currency.

Senator Gillibrand: Part of the problem for Russia is our sanctions. We have locked down access to the world markets, access to world banking, access to dollars. They want Rubles to strengthen their currency and to be able to buy things that they need through Rubles. I think it's also probably an issue of nationalism and they're just trying to create a positive narrative that Russia's economy isn't falling through the floor, which it is. Part of our goal is to increase sanctions to make sure they affect all of the oligarchs, all of the generals, all of the inner circle around Putin, all of the elected leaders who supported the war.

We have to start taking their apartments in New York City. There's things that we should be doing to create pain and enormous discomfort and economic anxiety for the Russian elite because we need them to push back on Putin. We need them to feel uncomfortable with what's happening and hopefully, push him aside in some meaningful way.

Brian: The city government of New York or the United States government can just take away people's apartments in New York City that they bought legitimately?

Senator Gillibrand: If they are Russian oligarchs and they're currently being sanctioned, you can take their money, you can take their yachts, you can take their homes, you can take any aspect of their wealth. It can be sanctioned and it can be taken. That is what happens during a war. An illegal war that's happening in Ukraine, is that if you have assets abroad, they are no longer safe. We do that all the time for illegal activity in normal parlance, normal criminal law. When you're trying to take out international drug trafficking operation, you're going to take all of the benefits and wealth that was created through that illegal trafficking. We will lock down all the wealth that the oligarchs have created and have as a way to stop this illegal war.

Brian: Senator Kirsten Gillibrand with us. We'll get to your for her in a minute, you also went to India, a country of a billion people that the US wants to get involved in the sanctions against Russia, but they have their needs and a lot of poverty and they've been relatively neutral. Was that your mission in India to try to convince them into the sanctions regime?

Senator Gillibrand: Yes. it's really important for the United States to project on a worldwide basis, our values, our goals, and our relationships. The one thing that China doesn't have, and the one thing that Russia doesn't have are the type of alliances and friendships that the United States has. We need to strengthen those alliances and build those friendships.

Part of our purpose in going to India and Nepal is to engage those leaders because both of them have deep concerns about China's ambitions. Unfortunately, India still acquires its military equipment from Russia, but they are now waking up to the fact that the Russian equipment is not effective. It's done terribly in Ukraine. It's broken down, it's not worked.

Second, they're not going to have access to any parts and supplies that they need if they want to maintain those weapons that they have from Russia. We wanted to create an overture and an invitation that we would love to work with you to maybe realign your goals with the United States, buy aircrafts from us, buy munitions and what weapons from us, weapons systems. Have a greater tie with the US and there's opportunities to do that. When we came back, we reported that to the administration the kind of things that both India and Nepal were open to

Brian: Rayhan in Queens has an India-related call for you. Rayhan on WNYC with Senator Gillibrand. Hello?

Rayhan: Yes. Hi, thank you. I wanted to know why this administration has not been very forceful in condemning India's human rights abuses. I think that there should be more condemnation from this government and from the Senator, with regards to what's going on in India, especially under prime minister Narendra Modi where Muslims are being persecuted and it's almost equivalent to war crimes or crimes against humanity.

Brian: Senator.

Senator Gillibrand: Part of our goal in visiting is to lift up our values and to invite other countries to follow our leadership on human rights and on recognizing and supporting religious minorities. Tony Blinken is monitoring the rise in human rights abuses in India. It's something that he has engaged with the prime minister directly.

In our meetings with the defense minister and the minister of external affairs, which is similar to their secretary of state, as well as their national security advisor, we really focused our conversation on their ambiguity with regard to what's happening in Ukraine because we need the world community to reject Russia's violence and attacks on innocent civilians. We did by our presence and our conversation, really lift up these human rights violations in a way that we could push India to change direction.

Brian: Here's a question relevant, I think, to your role on the Armed Forces Committee. Solamere in Philadelphia, you're on WNYC with Senator Gillibrand. Hello, Solamere.

Solamere: Hi, good morning, Brian. Good morning, Senator. I am a post 9/11 veteran with PTSD and MST. I qualified for the Caregiver program in 2016 and have benefited from it ever since. My partner is my Caregiver and my condition has improved since my enrollment. The program is now open to all veterans and rather than raise the budget, they changed the enrollment guidelines, which have eliminated 80% to 90% of the post-9/11 veterans, including myself.

We will lose the stipend and access to medical care for my spouse. I'm worried that my condition will deteriorate. We were told that the discharges had been paused, but that we should still prepare to be deemed ineligible. Are you aware of the change in the caregiver program and the amount of younger veterans who have been kicked out of this beneficial program?

Senator Gillibrand: Thank you for briefing me on this. I'd heard something about it briefly in a hearing in the last week, I think. I think it might have even been yesterday. I will investigate it and I will do what I can to restore this Caregiver program. I am the chairwoman of the personnel subcommittee and today we are actually having a posture hearing for the personnel subcommittee. I will be asking questions on this and I'll try to get maybe more information from you after this call so that I can lift up your example if you're willing to make sure that Brian has your number so we can be in touch.

Brian: Solamere may hang on. We'll take your contact information off the air and thank you for that offer to get in touch with her, Senator. Relevant also to your role on the armed services committee, but changing topics. We've spoken here many times about your efforts to have military officers held more accountable for sexual harassment and sexual assault. I see in the New York Times today a case, I admit I had not been previously familiar with, that an Air Force general has been court-martialed and now sentenced.

They say the first court-martial ever for a general in that branch of the military, the Air Force for forcibly kissing a woman, but the article notes, "he will only be docked five months’ pay and get a reprimand, but not dismissed." Are you familiar with this case?

Senator Gillibrand: I have read about it. I was not familiar with it before the New York Times wrote it up, but the good news is that he is the first general to actually be prosecuted in 75 years. We can say that that is progress to be prosecuted for sexual misconduct and to be sentenced and reprimanded and have a serious penalty.

The general did avoid more severe penalties that could have been opposed including dismissal as well as a reduction in rank, or he could have gotten up to seven years in prison, but the lawyer for the woman who came forward did believe that this was progress. He believed that this was a hopeful sign for sure that things are changing. We still have a very long way to go, Brian. I try to put much more far-reaching reforms in last year's defense bill. We accomplished getting it all in, in the Senate side, but it was taken out behind closed doors in conference.

Now there's just modest improvements in last year's bill that we hope to build on or get a jacked up and down vote for the full Senate by the end of this year. We have a lot of work to do, but at least having a small measure of oversight and accountability in this one case means that survivors can be more hopeful that they will have a chance for justice.

Brian: The woman he was found guilty of sexually assaulting is reportedly his own sister-in-law. That's gross part of the story. I'm sure he is got a very unhappy sibling or spouse somewhere in that story, but how do you build on something like this? How do you build on the measures that you have passed in the Senate with a next step, especially with the politics of the Senate as it is?

Senator Gillibrand: In the last national defense bill, the change was that if you are sexually assaulted or sexually harassed, that the decision-making about whether to prosecute the case would be given to a trained military prosecutor. The limitation there is that the prosecutor is not entirely independent. Unfortunately, the commanders retain a lot of the rights and privileges of the convening authority, which is a military term of art.

That means the person gets to pick the judge, the jury, the prosecutor, and defense counsel gets to make evidentiary decisions, gets to decide whether the person can be dismissed. If all that still rests with the commander, you will not have the appearance sufficiently in my view that the military justice system is independent, truly independent of the chain of command. We'd like to take the convening authority away from commanders and give it to these trained independent prosecutors.

We would also like to make sure all serious crimes are covered because if you do a bright line the equivalent of felonies, you will assure that justice is possible for every plaintiff and every defendant where we have seen bias against women and men who are alleging sexual harassment and assault, but also bias in such an against Black and brown service members. We want to rectify all the injustices in the system and you can do that with a bright line.

Brian: This is WNYC FM HD and AM, New York, WNJT FM 88.1, Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Netcong, and WNJO 90.3, Toms River. We are New York and New Jersey public radio and live streaming at wnyc.org. Another seven minutes or so with Senator Gillibrand. Yvonne in Burdett, New York is our next caller Yvonne you're on WNYC. Hello,

Yvonne: Good morning, Senator. Thank you so much for your representation. I'm Yvonne Taylor and I live in the Finger Lakes, where energy-intensive cryptocurrency mining is wreaking havoc on the climate and our natural resources, all for the sake of 48 jobs that the Green Bridge Bitcoin plant provides, compared to 60,000 jobs our thriving wine and tourism industry supports. My question has two parts. Number one, my community is wondering why as a champion for upstate and agriculture, you haven't answered our request to visit New Yorkers who are being harmed by crypto mining in the region that you're pushing to make a national heritage site, by the way, and thank you?

And secondly, can you help us understand why you are pairing up with another senator who invests in and is an ally of the cryptocurrency industry for any federal legislation on this currently unregulated industry when the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, such as Now or Never to reduce greenhouse gases unless we face the most dire consequences of climate change? Thank you.

Senator Gillibrand: Thank you for your excellent questions. I share your concerns about the environmental impact of Bitcoin mining particularly in Upstate New York near the Finger Lakes, where that particular mining company is dumping hot water into the Finger Lakes, which is going to create an enormous environmental negative impact. I was the first person to call this out when I visited over a year and a half ago. I met with the people that were protesting the Greenwich generations permit. I support the community in trying to push out crypto mining in places like the Finger Lakes. I believe that the local community must be heard on this.

At the federal level, I am working to make sure we have broad regulatory frameworks so that we can hold industries accountable, so that we can create safety and soundness so that we can protect consumers and so that this industry [unintelligible 00:22:13] because today it has none. It is an industry that is the Wild West. I have to tell you, we made a lot of mistakes in Web 2.0 by not regulating the internet. The Facebooks and the Googles of this world have done all the things they want to do no matter what and we didn't take that opportunity.

I am trying very hard to make sure we take this opportunity in Web 3.0 to create responsible, clear, transparent regulation so we can hold industry accountable. We have rules of the road so we can give some regulation to the CFT, some regulation to the SEC, some regulation to the Office of Currency, and some regulation to the IRS. This is the best solution to make sure members of our communities have rights and have ability to get transparency and know that the industry has basic framework regulation around it.

Brian: I see you're working on a regulatory framework for cryptocurrency with Senator Cynthia Lummis. That's probably the Republican that the caller was referring to. I'm curious enough about this and our listeners are curious enough about crypto these days and trying to understand the various implications of this new form of currency for the economy, for the environment, all these things. I want to go back to the caller and ask you, Yvonne, the senator sounds like she's on the same side as you, but you sounded like you were critical of her. How did that answer strike you?

Senator Gillibrand: I'm not critical. Oh, sorry.

Brian: I'm asking the caller. Sorry.

Senator Gillibrand: The caller, yes. Go ahead.

Yvonne: Thank you. I feel like Senator Gillibrand has always been a champion of the Finger Lakes, but I feel that she's falling short on this particular issue with us. We have directly invited her to come visit and speak with the community members who are being negatively impacted as we speak by this polluting facility in our region, which jeopardizes our driving economic engine in the area, which is agriculture and tourism. I'm very concerned that there is a lack of an environmental component to the legislation that she's proposing federally. Those are my concerns.

Brian: One more very brief response, Senator?

Senator Gillibrand: To address your concerns, I would love to meet with your group, number one, so we'll get that done. Then second, I called for the EPA to review the Green Bridge facility and I have met with the advocates over the last two years already. I am doing the thing that you want done. I don't think you should confuse that with the work I'm doing with Cynthia Lummis because Cynthia Lummis is a senator from Wyoming, who is very interested in this industry. As you know, to get anything done in Congress, you have to have a bipartisan piece of legislation.

We are working diligently to provide the oversight and accountability that the industry needs in order to create safety and soundness and consumer protections and to have an environmental lens. We are going to work on this. It's been going well so far. Our bill is not public. It's not been released, so there's nothing to comment on yet. When it is released, I will make sure I meet with stakeholders all across the state to make sure their voices are heard, and so that they can see what we've done as our first draft so I get comments and make it stronger.

I serve on the Ag Committee. I know how important clean water is to agriculture. I know how important it is to tourism. I know how precious our Finger Lakes are. The other role on the Ag Committee is oversight for the CFTC, the Commodities, and Futures Trading Commission. In that regard, I am on the right committee to begin to regulate this industry. That's what we want to do because we don't want to have an industry that has no rules, which is the current state of play. I'd be delighted to sit down with you all and we'll make sure we plan a trip to the Finger Lakes sooner rather than later. My staff could follow up if you leave your number after this show.

Brian: All right. Which is right now. Yvonne, we'll take your contact info off the air if you want to leave it. Senator Gillibrand, I know you got to go, so thank you for today. The end of our monthly call, your senator segment for April, and we'll talk to you again in May. Thank you so much.

Senator Gillibrand: Sounds great, Brian. Thank you, everybody. Thanks for all the callers who called in.

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