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Brian: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. If you didn't know, the states in this country are really divided into red and blue in all kinds of ways. For example, the news this week includes Florida approving Social Studies textbooks that have eliminated the word 'racism' which was in an earlier edition. They also removed the term 'police brutality' and the name 'George Floyd'. Those were in a social studies textbook, and now they're out, and it's okay with Florida. Then there's the news from Alabama where if you don't think white nationalism has friends in high places, think again. Listen to this exchange between US Senator Tommy Tuberville of Alabama, and an interviewer from Birmingham radio station WBHM.

Senator Tommy Tuberville: We are losing in the military so fast our readiness in terms of recruitment. Why? I'll tell you why. Because the Democrats are attacking our military so we need to get out the white extremists, the white nationalist people that don't believe in our agenda as the Joe Biden agenda. They're destroying it. This year we will not reach any recruiting goals in the military. If we want to talk about looking weak, that's where we're going to weak. We cannot start putting rules in there for one type, one group, and make different factions in military because that is the most important institution in United States of America and our allies is a strong, hard-nosed killing machine which is called our military.

Interviewer: You mentioned the Biden administration trying to prevent white nationalists from being in the military. Do you believe they should allow white nationalists in the military?

Senator Tommy Tuberville: Well, they call them that. I call them Americans.

Brian: Senator Tommy Tuberville saying people identified as white extremists and white nationalists should be allowed to serve in the US armed forces. I guess he'd look at those textbooks in Florida that remove the word racism and say, "I just call it history." He said I just call them Americans. How different are red states and blue states becoming?

Well, at the same time, those things were going on a state task force in California the other day released recommendations it's been working on for reparations for Black people in this country who were deprived of potential wealth or income by the centuries of slavery, official segregation and other policies that were explicitly, Florida cover your ears, that were explicitly racist.

The panel is called the Task Force to Study and Develop Reparations Proposals for African Americans. It was established by the California state legislature and signed into existence by Governor Gavin Newsom there in 2020. The legislature under the law that it passed will now officially consider the proposals the task force has sent it. Now the Washington Post describes them as the most expensive reparations planned for Black Americans proposed by a government body. Passage is by no means guaranteed.

Let's see what the task force is proposing and whether it can pass in California and be a model for other states or for the federal government with Emmanuel Felton race and ethnicity reporter at The Washington Post who has an article called What to know about California's Reparations Proposal for Black Americans. Emanuel, thanks for coming on wearing your explainer hat. Welcome to WNYC.

Emmanuel: Yes, thanks for having me, Brian.

Brian: I see there were five specific categories where the task force sought to establish economic damages, housing, health care, policing, property seizures, and commerce. Let's take one of those as an example. You report that in the area of housing, the economist on the task force concluded that the state owes Black Californians $293 billion for its role in redlining practices that denied people living in black neighborhoods access to mortgage loans. Can you describe how they came up with the specific number $293 billion?

Emmanuel: Yes. The economist developed formulas for each of the five areas. In the area of housing, the main inputs for their formula was what was the gap between Black and white household values in 1930 before redlining is instituted across the state compared to 1980 after redlining has ended in the state. What they find is, essentially, that redlining cost Black Californians just about $3,500 a year in annual household or home values. What they're doing across these areas is really drilling down to try to come up with a very discrete number that is annualized. For example, when it comes to the war on drugs, they say that the war on drugs cost Black Californians $2,500 a year over the span of the war on drugs which I think they say is 1977 to the year 2000. It's these relatively small numbers that easily add up into the billions over a lifetime of Black Californians.

Brian: Who would qualify as individuals for how much of that money housing-related? Do they have a formula for that?

Emmanuel: Yes. First, all of these recommendations assume that only Black Californians who can trace their ancestry back to before 1900 in the United States will qualify. This was an effort, and this is a fight across the country in the reparations battle over who should qualify. Is it all Black Americans, or is it just Black Americans who are descendants of slaves? In California, the latter one out. Only Black Americans who are descendants of slaves, or whose family has been here since before 1900. That's the population we're talking about. When it comes to housing, they decided that redlining existed from 1933 to 1977. For each year that you are a resident of California, you would get $3,500 theoretically in restitution for redlining.

Brian: Let's take another example. In the area of policing and mass incarceration, you report the task force recommended that each qualifying Black resident receives $2,352 for each year that they lived in California from 1971 to 2020. Can you explain how that timeline and that exact dollar figure $2,352 for each year was reached?

Emmanuel: Once again, it's about drilling down. They were trying to come up with formulas that looked at what did policing cost in terms of freedom, in terms of lost opportunity. That one's a little more complicated, but once again, it's about creating a number based on all these metrics that is really digestible for California. For that example, that number is about $3,000.

Brian: Now, I did want to get a few specific examples with specific numbers like those on the table for our listeners as we just did. Now, let me back out and ask you to explain some of the overarching things. Listeners, we're also going to open up the phone to hear your questions and comments. Welcome on California's reparations task force recommendations. Are you for or against to any degree? Do you have any questions? 212-433-WNYC. Black listeners, obviously, welcome to call in. Tell us your own or your own family story of how you think you were deprived of wealth or income over the generations or how that might be calculated for you.

Other listeners as well, white, Latino, AAPI, anyone, Japanese Americans with your reparations background, we'll get into how they may have used that as a model to some degree. Holocaust survivors with yours. Obviously, the government of Germany has paid reparations to some people, or anyone else with a comment or question, 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692 for Emanuel Felton race and ethnicity reporter at The Washington Post who's written up the article What to Know About California's Reparations Proposal for Black Americans. Who is on this task force to develop and propose reparations?

Emmanuel: It was mostly African Americans with the exception of one Japanese American lawyer, Don Tamaki, who was a veteran of the Japanese American reparations movement. It's a group of lawyers, elected officials, there were two members of the state legislature who are members of the task force, and it'll be interesting to see whether or not they really spearheaded in Sacramento moving forward. Lawyers, elected officials, academics, that type.

Brian: Was the reparations movement as you cited or really the reparations policy because it was enacted by the US government as an official reparations program after World War II for Japanese Americans who were put in those incarceration [inaudible 00:09:55] task force in any way or by this task force?

Emmanuel: I think that's the closest model we have. That is really the closest parallel we would get to anything like this. It pales in comparison. In that case, it was $1.6 billion paid to about 80,000 Japanese Americans who were in the camps themselves. Their descendants didn't qualify, which I think is an important bit of juxtaposition with this one. Because this is for descendants of people who were affected by these policies or themselves.

In the case of Japanese reparations, it ended up being $20,000 per person. That number was a politically fraught number. When you talk to the Japanese Americans who were involved with the struggle for Japanese reparations the cost to them of internment, of incarceration during the war ran into the billions. They knew that that wasn't politically feasible. They went for a number that they felt would be substantial enough to give the elders an amount that they felt made them whole in some way.

Brian: What about other reparations models from other countries? I happen to know a Jewish family here who's, I guess some of the members came during the Nazi era and they just recently got their last reparations check from the government of Germany. Was the Holocaust or any other international reparations program used as a model?

Emmanuel: There was never directly comparisons, but when you talk to reparations advocates, they're constantly bringing up both the Holocaust and Japanese American reparations. I think the scale of this one though will be so vast and not all survivors of the Holocaust got reparations. There are so many different factors. The scale would just be so completely different in this case.

Brian: You report that some people in the reparations movement are concerned that the lineage criteria that you laid out before of being here before 1900 things like that, maybe too difficult to prove for some people who should qualify. What kinds of proof would be required of the lineage?

Emmanuel: That hasn't really been established yet. I think there's been talk about locating your ancestor on one of the census of 1860 or 1870 or 1880. Because at this point the names on the census documents have been released. That's all I've heard. I think it's going to be really tricky to find that out. Especially you think of people who are adopted or in other ways have lost contact with their lineage. It could be very difficult to go back to before 1900.

Brian: Josh in Edison, New Jersey has a question. Josh, you're on WNYC. Hi there. Do we have Josh? Maybe not. We'll try to get Josh's line connected. Let's talk about some of these numbers in the meantime. One eye-popping number that has the conservative press especially buzzing is that some Black Americans who are older could receive as much as $1.2 million in cash a piece. Is that a real number?

Emmanuel: Yes. Now the numbers work out that way. That 57 and older we're talking about and if you're a lifelong resident in California $1 million a piece.

Brian: How did they come to that?

Emmanuel: That's multiplying $3,500 a year for redlining times 44, let's say. Then the $2,500 for the war on drugs times, I don't know, 50. The numbers add up really quickly. I think that's what's tricky. The harm is so vast is what they're saying that it would run into the million or it could possibly run over a million and even hundreds of thousands for even relatively young Californians.

Brian: What would the total cost be to the government of California if the legislature enacts the task force recommendations exactly as proposed?

Emmanuel: We don't know that yet, because we don't know what percentage of Black Californians would qualify under that lineage base thing. We know for a minimum of about $500 billion, which is almost more than twice the annual budget of California. The financial realities are really hard to get my or to get your head around.

Brian: Let's try another caller. Don in Brooklyn. You're on WNYC. Don, you got me?

Don: Yes, I got you. Assuming that this recommendation by the task force passes, my question is, is that going to be hit for those people who are included in terms of receiving the reparations? Can it no longer be passed to the next generation or could there be some case in the future where all of a sudden, it's important that those people too are compensated?

Emmanuel: I think it's a really interesting question. You look at the Holocaust and there was a definite endpoint. Japanese internment, there was a definite endpoint. Racism in America-- I think even the task force agrees this won't necessarily solve it. The question is when is that endpoint? When are we done with our race issue? Are these payments added? I think that's still an open question.

Brian: Michella, in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi Michella.

Michella: Hi, Brian. It's nice to be on and I love your show [unintelligible 00:15:53] to say that. I had a great great uncle in Ohio who had a very large farm. He was one of the first farmers to change from corn to soy product. That was in the '60s. He was at that time in his 60s, maybe a little older. When he and his wife could no longer run the farm, he had a management person come in and the farm was worth over $1 million. This is back in the early '70s. He passed away and six months later, his wife passed away.

The family knew that the farm was to be left to the family, but when she passed away all of a sudden there was a new will that had been presented to her while she was dying in bed by the manager and lawyers who were whites. The family fought it. She passed away, the family [unintelligible 00:16:59] she passed away, the family fought it. Being in rural of Ohio the judges did not see it in the family's way and handed over $1 million worth of property to the white man.

Brian: Is your question, how would something like that be accounted for in an individual case like that under this proposal?

Michelle: No, I'm just saying how broad this spectrum is.

Brian: Yes.

Michelle: How many people of color this affects and lots of people don't even realize what's been taken from their families. Not only were they not allowed by districting laws to buy things, but many people don't know what was taken away. There were many Black farmers, a lot of Black land all throughout the northeast and they found ways of taking it away. That's my point.

Brian: Thank you for your point and thank you for sharing your family's story. I think it's an example, Emmanuel, of just how many ways, just the myriad of ways that there was, what we might call monetary extraction as well as labor extraction from Black Americans over time.

Emmanuel: The scale is just immense. I think that once again is the tricky part of coming up with a number, because it is so ingrained in our history and in so many parts of the country.

Brian: I think we have Josh in Edison back with his question. Josh, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Josh: Hello. Can you hear me?

Brian: Yes.

Josh: Wonderful. My question is how this committee quantifies Blackness? Assuming that someone can trace their lineage back the way that they're saying. If they're a mixed race or they're white person and they're a mixed race, do they still qualify for these?

Brian: Thank you for that question, Josh.

Emmanuel: It's a great question.

Brian: Emmanuel, go ahead.

Emmanuel: It's a great question. So far, the conversation has been people who identify as Black, but I think that that is very tricky. For example, in San Francisco they've [unintelligible 00:19:29] you've identified as Black on government forums for the last 10 years. That's been the approach. I don't think the task force necessarily has broken that out at the state level, but all of the things that they've been talking about is exclusively for the about 2.5 million California who identify as Black.

Brian: Josh, thank you for your question. California has a big budget deficit at the moment to pay for services already approved. Does the task force propose how to pay for these reparations, how to find the many billions of dollars that their proposals would cost?

Emmanuel: No, and I think that's what's really tricky so far. The exact same thing happened in San Francisco. The task force say, our goal is to quantify what has been lost and what it would take to repair the harm. Then it's up to lawmakers to come up with the politically feasible answers to these, to the formulas that we present.

Brian: Well, what is politically feasible? California, as you note, has a Democratic party super majority in the state legislature and a Democratic governor. Have Governor Newsom or legislative leaders weighed in on this yet?

Emmanuel: So far, they've been very quiet. Newsom did release a statement that some read as saying that he was against or backing away from cash payments, but he has gone back and said that no, he is still considering cash payments as a possible way forward. You're absolutely right. In a state with Democratic super majorities and a proud progressive governor, reparations advocates hope that they can set a benchmark for other states in California. For example, here in our area, there's been a bill down in Trenton for years, since before California's task force bill was introduced, that has gone nowhere that tried to create a task force in New Jersey.

Advocates are hoping action in California will push other blue states to act. I think the politics of California are not as clear as red and blue. They're trying to get this thing passed in a state that's only 5% Black. That will mean building a multiracial coalition with groups like Asian voters and Latino voters who might not really have the same connection to this history, this history of slavery, of all the wrongs done to black Americans. That coalition has failed to materialize in the past. In 2020, there was a proposition to get rid of the ban on affirmative action in California. Asian and Latino voters did not go for that. It'll be really interesting to see politically how they can move forward in a state that once again is only 5% Black.

Brian: Let's take another call. Here's Anthony in the Bronx. You're on WNYC. Hi, Anthony.

Anthony: Hi, Brian. Good morning. I'd like to just say that, even on a national level, I think what we are asking for in terms of reparations on the monetary level is meaningless, because ultimately, it's never going to happen primarily because it's going to bankrupt the world's economy. What's more important than that is education, because for 400 years, since they brought us here and dropped us off in South Carolina, the one thing that this system seems to be more afraid of than anything else is an educated Black person. Why not say, for instance, promise to educate those people with the lineage for the next 400 years, because you kept us in bondage for 400 years. Why not educate us for free for the next 400 years? That will solve the problem all the way around. That will even the playing field throughout this country and the world.

Brian: Anthony, thank you so much for that alternative suggestion. Of course, Emmanuel, a lot of people say that wouldn't level the playing field all the way around, but it's a serious idea from a serious caller. Did they talk about on this task force alternative ways of providing reparations that would have the most impact on future equality, which is of course, the goal, better to invest it in education in ways that he says? Maybe 400 years of free education for anybody who shows their Black American lineage or some other alternative?

Emmanuel: Yes, that's definitely been a conversation in California. The vice chair of the task force there has been really adamant that he does not see a universe where he says white folks will ever pay Black folks. There was definitely dissent amongst members of the task force of what was possible when it came to cash payments and, funding education and nonprofits and businesses. Those ideas constantly came up. They're coming up around the country as people tackle this issue. Like you said, I would say for the last 30 years or so, education has been the focus of a lot of people in the Democratic Party around how to close the gap and between school choice and charter schools and all of this. We see that the gap has not really closed at all.

Brian: Mary Alice in East Flatbush, you're on WNYC. Hi, Mary Alice.

Mary Alice: Good morning. New York State has two pending reparations bills. One, basically they're modelled on the California bill, except one names three specific black nonprofits to be on the reparations committee, which is problematic because how do you name nonprofits in a bill? The second one is that the reparations would be proposed to go to every black person who's living in the country now, which reparations is only for people who are descendants of chattel slaves. The other bill Assemblywoman Nikki Lucas introduced is more closely based on the California bill, except she adds a Freedman's Bureau.

The Freedman's Bureau would help trace the lineage of the descendants of chattel slaves whose families were here in 1900s. 1900s is the cutoff year because anybody who voluntarily came to this country after 244 years of active chattel slavery and the descendants of those chattel slaves who fought Jim Crow and fought the Civil War and fought for their freedom and died for it, those are the people who should be considered for reparations.

Not any person from, no offense, Africa, the Caribbean, South America, who happened to be Black and came here in the 1960s or came here last year voluntarily after the descendants of chattel slaves made this country more reasonably safe for Black people to come here. Those people from Africa and the Caribbean and South America were not coming here during the 244 years of active chattels slavery. They only came when--

Brian: Let me get a response. I hear you and, Emmanuel, she makes a point that I think was central to the debate in California, because I think this reparations task force wound up on her point of view, which is that, only the descendants of American slaves, not other black Americans would be eligible for the reparations.

Emmanuel: Yes. That was after months of fighting. I think this is really one of the core issues dividing the reparations movement across the country. You see this fight going on in the local level up in Boston, up in Amherst, Massachusetts. All of these towns that have started these reparations panels have really been faced with this question of who qualifies. It's a very emotional topic for a lot of folks. I think there's this huge divide among Black Americans generally, especially around immigration. With this issue specifically, there's a lot of emotion around the idea that who came here forcefully and who came here willingly and what is owed to each group.

Brian: Mary Alice, thank you for laying that out so clearly. Mary Alice references a bill in the New York State legislature. You are based in New York, I see, Emmanuel. Is this getting any traction that you've reported on in New York's own Democratic supermajority legislature yet? Is there even a bill officially introduced to set up a task force like California just had?

Emmanuel: There's been talk of a bill for a few months, maybe a few weeks. There's been talk. This just hasn't been moving very quickly in Albany. It's an interesting time to be a Black politician, and I think in New York, [unintelligible 00:29:12], I think there's just a change in tone over what role race should play in policy and politics.

Brian: I guess we can say, since I mentioned in the intro red and blue states going in opposite directions in so many ways, we know about abortion rights, LGBTQ rights, whether the word 'racism' appears in textbooks, et cetera. Is California part of a group of blue states, meaning states with Democrats in charge of state government that are seriously considering reparations? Or is California clearly a leader, really an outlier still?

Emmanuel: Oh yes, California's way out front. There was a bill that Governor Jay Inslee in Washington signed earlier this week that set up a $100 fee for homebuyers in the state and that money would go to pay for down payments and closing costs for communities that experience housing discrimination. They're calling that a reparations program, but that pales in comparison to what's happening in California. California is way out front. They're hoping it's a model, but also, we'll see how far California really is. These recommendations are arriving in Sacramento almost three years after the murder of George Floyd in a completely different political environment where the state is facing this $22.5 billion budget deficit. We'll see how far advanced California is on this issue, but we're not seeing any other state even approach something like this.

Brian: Emmanuel Felton, reporter for The Washington Post who covers race and ethnicity, his article What to know about California’s reparations proposal for Black Americans. It follows the official proposals by the California African Americans Reparations Task Force, which now go to the legislature. Emmanuel, thanks so much.

Emmanuel: Thanks so much for having me.

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