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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. For our last 10 minutes or so today, back to March Madness. We started the show with the controversy over Dartmouth and USC athletes talking about unionizing. Now, we're going to come back and talk about a whole other thing. Are you excited about the college basketball tournaments about to really start? Emphasis on the S there, tournaments, because it looks like most of the excitement might be on the women's side this year.

Iowa star Caitlin Clark has broken out as a kind of, I don't know, Taylor Swift of the sport. When she plays on the road, ticket prices go up and the local economy gets a bump. With us to talk about the phenomenon of Caitlin Clark in this moment in the women's game, we're joined by Lyndsey D'Arcangelo, sports writer and co-author of Hail Mary: The Rise and Fall of the National Women's Football League. Lyndsey, thanks for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Lyndsey D'Arcangelo: Yes, thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take a few phone calls here, too. Are you following the women's basketball tournament as much as or more than the men's this year? 212-433- WNYC. Anyone filling out Women's March Madness brackets? Text or call us, 212-433-9692. Maybe you even have some current or former women college athletes who want to talk about the state of women's college sports and its fandom. 212-433-9692. Lyndsey, for people who don't know, how big is the Caitlin Clark phenomenon?

Lyndsey D'Arcangelo: It's pretty big. As somebody who's been covering women's college basketball in the WNBA for the past seven, eight years or so, she's the biggest star I've seen at the college level in a long time. I think she's a generational talent. I know she's known for her incredible scoring ability and shooting threes from the logo, but she's also an incredible passer, leads the league, leads the nation, actually, in assist per game as well. She just has an all-around game that's just very exciting and electric to watch.

Brian Lehrer: Last year's tournament's final game in which LSU defeated Clark in Iowa doubled the viewership of the previous year. Is that reflected in how the tournaments are being marketed this year?

Lyndsey D'Arcangelo: Yes, an interesting note. The promotion and marketing really changed a couple years ago for the women's tournament. They weren't even allowed to use the slogan March Madness until 2022, which is just two years ago, which is wild when you think about it but if you look at the Final Four from last year, it averaged about 6.5 million viewers which was an 87% increase from the previous year. Then, as you mentioned, the championship game blew those numbers out of the water. I think the trend is going to continue. I think you're going to see even more viewership for the entire tournament through every single round up until the championship game. It's just a very exciting time to be a fan of women's college basketball, women's basketball in general.

Brian Lehrer: Who are some of the other stars generating excitement in the tournament?

Lyndsey D'Arcangelo: You have LSU. Still, they're the reigning champions and they have a bevy of All-Stars on their roster right now. You have Angel Reese who had a breakout season last year and was the star of that team last year. Aneesah Morrow is also on that team. Hailey Van Lith, who used to play at Louisville. You have the entire roster of South Carolina which is pretty incredible from top to bottom. A freshman, MiLaysia Fulwiley, is on that team. She's just another incredible freshman in this freshman class this year. You have Hannah Hidalgo on Notre Dame. You have JuJu Watkins out west at USC. The list is pretty long. There's plenty of stars to watch in this tournament.

Brian Lehrer: I saw that you tweeted that the sports betting industry isn't offering a lot of options on the women's side. Care to speculate why and describe what is out there?

Lyndsey D'Arcangelo: Yes, sure. I can speak directly to that. When I was writing for the athletics the past few years, I would pick every game in the bracket including the spread, and pick against the spread, and we always ran into trouble getting ready to publish because the spreads weren't out as quickly as they were for the men's tournament. There was always a delay in getting them out and seeing what the games were predicted to be. I think the sports betting industry is lagging behind considering where women's sports are at right now, and they should be jumping into that right away and getting behind that because it's only going to continue to grow, not just in women's basketball but across the women's sports landscape.

Brian Lehrer: Listener writes, "I'm the bus driver for the Columbia University women's basketball team. They're in the NCAAs for the first time in program history and have had an amazing season. Go, Lions." There's a little local boosterism here in New York. Let's see. Someone else writes, "Ah, the Fairfield Stags women are 31 in 1, one of the hottest teams in the country, but only seated at number 13, antlers up." That's another big Connecticut team besides Yukon, Fairfield. Right?

Lyndsey D'Arcangelo: Yes, they could actually be a Cinderella this year. They had an incredible season. They play Indiana in the opening round, and I actually picked them to upset Indiana. That was one of my upset picks. There's always a few in the opening rounds, so we'll see if the Stags could get it done.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Leslie in the Bronx, you're on WNYC. Hi, Leslie.

Leslie: Oh, hi. I was a star basketball player in high school back in the '50s. As a forward, at one point, I shot 32 points in one of our playoff games. Then when I went to Fordham University, I was on the first women's basketball team at Fordham University when they finally allowed women on campus there, but then I was discouraged that there was no way for women to become professional basketball players at that time. Now, I'm really thrilled at the attention that women's basketball is getting particularly this year out in Iowa. I think it's fantastic. Thank you for covering this.

Brian Lehrer: Leslie, did you think it would happen before?

Leslie: I didn't think it would happen. I used to follow St. Bonaventure. I used to listen to their games. St. Bonnie's up in Upstate New York because I just listened to basketball, but it didn't occur to me that women would be able to go this far with it. I think it's great.

Brian Lehrer: Leslie, thank you very much.

Leslie: I still have my basketball in my closet.

Brian Lehrer: Yay. You should sign it and sell it. Leslie. Leslie.

Leslie: No way. No way. I keep that. I'm a senior citizen, but I keep that.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you so much for your call. You know where else it's breaking out, Lindsey, and you probably know at least a little bit, SportsTalk radio, which hardly ever talks about women's sports of any kind. The discussion has become now that Caitlin Clark is the all-time points leader for any college basketball program ever*, they're debating, is it the equivalent or not of Pete Maravich who did it on the men's side a long time ago, but at least it's breaking through. I wonder if you think that that matters.

Lyndsey D'Arcangelo: Yes, first, I just want to say I love hearing stories like what Leslie just said. It's incredible to see where women's sports is now, and I'm sure for her, it's just incredible to see how far it's come. There's a lot of joy in that and there's a lot of validation in that. I'm glad she was able to call in and share her story, but SportsTalk radio is the next frontier. You're seeing that happen on shows like ESPN's First Take and things like that where women's sports is a topic of conversation.

Some of the biggest headlines are happening on the women's side, and the sports commentators are going to have to do a little extra work and familiarize themselves with these names and these players and these storylines so they can have intelligent takes and speak intelligently about women's force because it's not going anywhere and it's going to continue. I feel like from this point on, I think we're seeing the evolution happen on the media side.

Brian Lehrer: Listener writes, "President Obama always shares his March Madness picks, and I'm thankful that he's been sharing women's and men's brackets for many years." Another listener writes, "Caitlyn Clark is the Taylor Swift of the NCAA, changing local economies." On the economies, and we're going to run out of time soon, she has had an effect on ticket prices and attendance. I see for Iowa games where she plays and for schools that they travel to, is women's college basketball seeing increased interest across the board though beyond Caitlin Clark?

Lyndsey D'Arcangelo: Yes. I think that's what people tend to forget because they look at Caitlin Clark and think it started with her, and there's no doubt that there's a Caitlin Clark effect. It's definitely happening. She has definitely been so good for women's basketball, but there's also been this movement and this upward trend that's been happening the past five years from what I saw as far as increased media coverage, more visibility, more games on national television, more accessibility. All of that plays a part. Then it increases the momentum and you're seeing that explosion sort of come to fruition right now.

Brian Lehrer: 15 seconds. Do you do Brackets? Have you picked the Final Four? Have you picked a women's March Madness winner?

Lyndsey D'Arcangelo: Yes. I do do Brackets. I do one per the men's, one for the women's. I can't do any and handle any more than that. I don't know how these people can do like 20 Brackets. I mean, one pick is enough, but yes, I did do one. My Final Four is UConn. I think they're a dark horse, which is funny to say about UConn considering their history. Texas, Iowa, I'm going with the storybook ending for Caitlin Clark, and South Carolina.

Brian Lehrer: There we leave it with Lyndsey D'Arcangelo, sports writer and co-author of Hail Mary: The Rise and Fall of the National Women's Football League. Happy March Madness tournaments. Thanks for coming on, Lyndsey.

Lyndsey D'Arcangelo: Yes. Enjoy it. Thank you so much.

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Stay tuned for All of It.

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