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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. As the crisis on Rikers Island deepens with the 11th inmate death this year coming Sunday night, New York State Attorney General Letitia James and the District Attorney's of Brooklyn, the Bronx, and Queens visited the jail complex in person yesterday and we're very happy that Brooklyn DA, Eric Gonzalez, is joining us now to describe what he saw and discuss how to end the deadly neglect and ongoing sick-out by correction officers that are contributing to the crisis. What can a prosecutor do to help? DA Gonzalez, we really appreciate your time at this busy and very fraught time. Welcome back to WNYC.

Eric Gonzalez: Hi, Brian, how are you?

Brian Lehrer: I'm okay. Thank you. First, I want to say the name of the inmate who died. He was 42-year-old, Issa Abdul Karim. I also want to say that he was re-incarcerated at Rikers from what I read, merely for missing appointments with his parole officer and smoking marijuana, which was a parole violation. He had been out on parole without other incidents according to press reports since 2018. His original crime was also a nonviolent drug charge, I gather, selling cocaine. He apparently caught COVID and died from it from the overcrowded conditions at Rikers, is all of that consistent with your understanding of that case?

Eric Gonzalez: It is, and it's consistent with the visit that we had yesterday with our attorney general. We saw a lot of men-- We were in men's prison, we saw a lot of men who were put into very crowded cells, when they were waiting for intake onto the island, meaning the process of getting them screened and put onto the island. They're waiting there and they're being quarantined in place under conditions that are heartbreaking. Listen, I've visited Rikers Island many times in my career. I've gone to upstate prisons, they're always difficult visits to see people detained behind bars, especially with the racial dynamics that exist in our jails and prisons. Under the dire conditions that are existing right now in Rikers Island, this is an especially difficult visit.

Brian Lehrer: Was this Abdul Karim a Brooklyn case? Did you prosecute him originally?

Eric Gonzalez: No, he was not. We do have in Brooklyn about 55 people currently in on $1 bail based on a parole hold. We're working very diligently to-- they would not be on the island, but for the parole hold and they have $1 bail. These are the types of cases that I think I can make a difference on getting people like those off the Island who are being held on $1 bail because they have a pending parole hold.

Brian Lehrer: I don't understand what $1 bail means. I've never heard that term before. Presumably, anybody can afford $1, so what does that mean?

Eric Gonzalez: It means that their hold is not really based on the new case, they get $1 bail set on the criminal charge so that whatever time they spend on Rikers Island can count towards their time incarcerated, but they really should not be on the Island. They don't have active bail on the case, but yet they're counted in on the pre-trial detainees.

Brian Lehrer: On the case of Mr. Karim, can you explain to me and the listeners, how can smoking marijuana be a parole violation worthy of incarceration at all, if smoking marijuana is legal in New York now?

Eric Gonzalez: Great. I don't know the facts of the parole violation but as you know Brian, I've been very critical for a long time. I think I was the first DA in New York State to actively support Less is More and to fight to prevent technical violations from landing people on to Rikers Island in the first place. Most people who have a technical violation are looking at 15 to 30 days punishment for violating their parole, but they'll be on the Island for 90 days to 120 days before they can get a parole hearing. Less is More is how we prevent that from happening again.

We also want to make sure that we're focusing in on the infection rates. At Rikers Island, they're higher than they are in the general public right now and that's another concern but Less is More is how you prevent that from happening. People who miss court appearances with their parole officer, they're late to an appointment or they get tested for some banned substance, they don't need to be on Rikers Island at that point.

Brian Lehrer: Just so I understand the marijuana piece, can somebody as a condition of parole be prohibited from possessing or smoking marijuana even though it's legal?

Eric Gonzalez: I believe the answer is yes because they can be banned from drinking alcohol. They can be banned from conducting all kinds of conduct that's otherwise legal, for example, many of our parolees are banned from driving. Although they can get a license and drive legally, it's a condition that's being put on them. That's another conversation, things that we may think are no longer make a lot of sense. Yes, you can tell someone who's on parole not to do things that other people have the liberty to do.

Brian Lehrer: That's interesting about the driving. Do people who get prohibited from driving do so because they're in for some kind of vehicular-related crime?

Eric Gonzalez: Not necessarily, sometimes they're banned from driving because the parole officer wants to be able to keep better tabs on them. I've seen people sent back to Rikers Island because they've received a speeding ticket, even the parole officer learns about the ticket or the traffic stop, says, "Oh, you didn't have my permission to drive." They've been violated, a technical violation, sent back to Rikers because they were driving to work. One well-known case where a person was driving someone to the hospital got pulled over. The officer learned they were on parole, let them go but did alert their parole officer that they had stopped them from driving and that person was later reincarcerated for a technical violation. Those are the kinds of things why I supported Less is More.

Brian Lehrer: Now listeners, we invited calls from people incarcerated on Rikers Island on Monday and we got one from inside and one from somebody who had just been released. We renew that invitation today, if you're in Rikers yourself or recently got out, or more broadly if you have any personal or professional connection to people, the situation there, we invite you to call in for Brooklyn DA Eric Gonzalez, with your observations or your questions at 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280 or tweet @BrianLehrer. DA Gonzalez, there was an article about you on Monday in Brooklyn paper with the headline, "DA still sending some defendants to Rikers despite jails chaos." True headline about you?

Eric Gonzalez: Well, since I've taken office we've really reduced when we ask for bail. I know they've been calls for DAs not to send anyone to Rikers Island under any circumstances. I think that we need to really address that issue. My office does its best to make sure that the people we're sending to Rikers Island is a strong rationale for it. There were about 300 people on the island right now that have homicide-related charges. Approximately 150 people are there for rape or sexual assault, 100 or so are there for domestic violence. Other 100 are there for gun crimes.

Why I strongly believe de-incarceration is going to be the point and key way that we reduce violence and deal with the problems on the island, we also need to be honest in our conversations with what are we going to do with these people who have committed such serious crimes allegedly, are going to be held on those cases, are going to be tried. In a lot of these cases, especially in our homicide cases, a lot of the detained people have already demonstrated a willingness to flee. Many of my homicide cases, people are arrested in other states after months of looking for them because they know that there's significant consequences, they're looking at lifetime in jail.

We need to have other conversations about how we reduce the population. I'm working very hard to do that. During COVID, I reduced the population in Brooklyn by about 25%, which is about 350 people. We're starting that process again, looking about who we can release safely now. We're looking at low bail amounts, we're looking at people who are medically vulnerable. We're looking at people who would be looking at some kind of programming as opposed to upstate jail sentences. There's a lot that I can do to reduce the population. We take it very seriously when we're asking for bail. We're asking for bail on cases where this person is likely to flee and is a significant public safety reason for our request.

Brian Lehrer: Well, I understand why you're saying people, in some cases need to be sent their homicide cases, people who might flee but advocates have started calling at least for intake limits, limits on the number of new people who can be sent to Rikers at this time as an emergency response because the intake area is so overcrowded and that's apparently where Mr. Karim may have caught COVID. Do you support that?

Eric Gonzalez: I do. That's what we're doing. I was told yesterday, they were about 40 people in the intake on Rikers Island. New cases that came in yesterday, we have to pay attention. I think, the same way I went to visit Rikers Island, I think it's important that judges and other people who have the ability to send and set bail on these cases are visiting as well.

Brian Lehrer: We have some calls coming in and more to cover with Brooklyn DA Eric Gonzalez will continue in a minute.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC with Brooklyn District Attorney Eric Gonzalez as we talk about the crisis on Rikers Island, with among many other things and 11th inmate justice year, having died there on Sunday and tragically, somebody who would have been eligible for release under the bill that Governor Hochul sign this week called Less is More because he was only re-incarcerated on technical violations of his parole, but because of the overcrowded conditions there he caught COVID and died in jail.

That's one of the most tragic manifestations because somebody died of what's going on at Rikers. You've probably heard the horror stories about the chaos there about people being beat up there, about people not being able to get to doctors there, and everything else. DA Gonzalez, if you don't mind, we had a caller on Monday, a guy in his 60s who spoke to the legal aid attorney who was our guest on Monday about not being able to get medical care. I see he's calling it again and I'm going to take his call again. Here is Nathaniel on Rikers Island. Nathaniel, you're on WNYC. Hello again.

Jettison: Hello.

Brian Lehrer: Nathaniel, you're on the air. We got you.

Jettison: This is not Nathaniel. This is Jettison [unintelligible 00:12:55] actually.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, I'm sorry. We had you as Nathaniel. You're somebody else. Are you at Rikers? Are you calling from inside? I apologize.

Jettison: Yes, I'm calling from Rikers Island. That's all right.

Brian Lehrer: I apologize. A line came up as if you were the same caller from Monday. Go ahead. What would you like to say or ask the district attorney?

Jettison: Eventually, I've been arrested since February 23rd. I had my arraignment in April 15the. According to the law, the DA have 15 days after my arraignment to hand over my discovery. Apparently, I was supposed to go to court on May 18th and the DA speak to my lawyer and come up with an agreement. I never went to court. The DA told my lawyer there was going to hand over my discovery if she didn't let me know who some witness is.

Apparently, I went to court on July 8th, I was in Brooklyn all day. I haven't seen nobody. My attorney contacted the district attorney and she told my lawyer that there was going to turn over my discovery, the next day, which was July 9th. My lawyer called on July 9th, they ignore my lawyer. She emailed them and tell him that she was going to put in a motion for my discovery. I had court yesterday, the 21st and I was downstairs waiting for court for 12:30 until 1:30 and the DA never logged in.

My lawyer was there, I was there and get to find out that the DA said that they had internet problems and they finally sent over my discovery. Now what I want is, I would like to have an early court date. Prior, they actually put my court date on October 19th, which is my wife's birthday, and I don't really like that. Over the line, I really can't hear what they're saying properly over the telephone. I would like to know if I will get an earlier court date. I don't think it's right for them to actually not send over my discovery when they're supposed to and then use the excuse about they had internet problems.

Brian Lehrer: Let me get your response from the DA and DA Gonzalez, of course, I don't know if you're familiar with the caller's individual case. He also seems to point up some systemic problems, which we'll get to. First, what can you say to him?

Eric Gonzalez: Well, I would encourage you to have your attorney reach out to reschedule a court date. That's usually fairly easily done. Again, he's pointing out a real problem within the system, which is it's so bad in terms of production, that people are not being produced to their court date. There's no reason that this man should not be afforded the opportunity to come to court and be present in the courtroom and yet here he's trying to dial in from a correctional facility, to see what's happening in court.

We need to make sure that our court system is able to have the capacity to allow people to have their day in court. Quite frankly, what's happening on Rikers is there's been a real production issue. People are not making it to court and there's no reason why he wasn't sent to court to deal with his case. In terms of discovery, it's something that, I have to look into the specifics of his case, to make it clear when the courts have given us a period of time to handle discovery.

There's obviously a lot of exceptions to those rules, depending on the nature of the case of their protective orders. We'll look into the exact nature of what his concerns are. I think he said he finally got the discovery. We want to make sure that these kinds of institutional, and systemic barriers do not prevent people from moving forward with their lives in their cases. This is also part of the solution to right this because it's about reducing population. It's also about expediting the resolution of cases. If he's waiting for discovery, to see who the witness is and whether or not, he wants to take a plea bargain on the case, or fight the case, we need to get that very quickly because we're never going to get everyone off the island by releasing everyone. We actually have to resolve some of the cases as well in the court process.

Brian Lehrer: If you want to leave your name, and any contact information from with inside Rikers, with our producer, we can pass that on to the DA's office, since it's a Brooklyn case.

Eric Gonzalez: Just the name of your attorney and we can change a court date. That's usually fairly easily done.

Brian Lehrer: Your name and the name of your attorney, hang on, a producer will pick up off the air. To follow up on that systemically, I want to play you a clip of Mayor de Blasio from this show on Friday and get your reaction. I asked if he would release more people from Rikers under his so-called 6A Powers, health and safety protection powers like he did at the start of the pandemic. As you will hear in this clip, he said no, and pointed instead to problems with the legal system that I'd like you to react to as a DA. Here's the mayor.

Mayor de Blasio: We're not looking at 6A right now. We're looking at something to achieve much, much more, which is these big movements we got here, hundreds and hundreds of times. We're also working with the state. There are people who were supposed to be sent to state prison long ago and it didn't move quick enough. The state is helping us to exercise that. It's another several 100 people. We're asking judges also to use supervised release more on the front end when they're sentencing if it's a non-violent offense.

Brian Lehrer: The mayor went on to point out, as he often does, that the court system is not operating at full capacity in the pandemic causing people to be held longer at Rikers, waiting for their cases to be heard. That sounds like perhaps just what the caller was describing. Can you react to any of that from the mayor?

Eric Gonzalez: Well, I think, in terms of people who are very close to finishing their city sentence, and they're on Rikers Island, the issue on the island, there's a staffing issue, getting the correctional officers to come back to work and staff the place appropriately so that they could be safety and security. There is an overcrowding aspect as well. We should be clear that we're not going to solve this without addressing all of the issues.

On the overcrowding, the ability to take a few 100 people out because Less is More, a few 100 to be transferred to state facilities because they've already been sentenced and they need to be taken off the island.

There's a number of people who've already pled guilty, but for some reason in the court system, they have not been sentenced. We need the judges to take care of that as well. They've already pled guilty, now they're waiting to be sentenced legally and that would help. In terms of releasing people to work release and other things we have to be very honest about the public safety conversation, people who are almost done with their sentence getting them out a few months later does not change the face of justice and does not make our city more dangerous.

I think it is a very natural approach to dealing with the overcrowding, getting them on work release and other ways of reducing overcrowding has to priority. Again, as DA I've taken on the responsibility to make sure that when my ADAS are asking for bail, that they're doing so appropriately and because justice and safety require it. On this end of the spectrum, people who are going to be out in the next few months, we need to figure out a way of getting them out more efficiently and sooner. I support the calls that legal aid and others have done to do that exactly.

Brian Lehrer: I don't understand why the mayor wouldn't use his 6A powers for the right individuals, in addition to addressing all of the systemic issues. Do you?

Eric Gonzalez: You have to ask him Brian, but for me, it's very clear the last time during COVID, we were able to release people. The overwhelming majority did not get rearrested. There were some people who did get rearrested but the overwhelming majority did not. There's a way of doing this with focusing on safety. You can use a scalpel and really look at the people who are about to be released and get them out early.

Brian Lehrer: Here's T in Westchester. T you on WNYC, thanks for calling in today.

T: Good morning Brian. Good morning to your listeners. Brian, I've spoken to like a couple of years ago in the Westchester when the pandemic began just informing your listeners and Andrea Stewart-Cousins about the conditions we was going through with the COVID-19. Just to touch on what's going on, I am a Parole Violator. I'm here on $1 bail for a new case which is a misdemeanor with my girlfriend accusing me of threatening her. It was just easy like that for her to call my Parole officer and make false accusations on me. I've been sitting in here and my sentence was 24 months because I'm a category one, which is the high is category for a violent offense with my initial charge. With that said, there's a lot of people here on parole that's sitting in here in Westchester county. I was originally on Riker Island for the violation. I was released and came to Westchester, parole to Westchester county. This matter, like the District Attorney, said and I understand the safety of just the people that's living in society, which we are human beings too. A lot of people make mistakes in life but the thing is how are we going to correct the mistakes that some of us made by not giving us an affordance that opportunity to do better, by not allowing us the opportunity to get good jobs and to be able to drive with a license, just simple things like that. In order to go to work, you need to drive to get to work with some of these jobs.

These are some of the things they really need to really take into consideration instead of talking about it, they really need to act on it because it's actually more better economically for society to give the people that's on parole and was formerly incarcerated that opportunity. If someone commits a crime, this is why the law's here and the proper steps to be taken, but to just massive and over incarcerate people because of the color of our skin it's just horrific. It is just something that really needs to change and it's more need to be done instead of smiling and sign bills.

People need to really take just action now because a lot of people are going to die and continue dying, just not on Riker island, all over New York state this is happening. Extremely in Westchester county, which I really don't hear people talking about. The population here, the conditions, how we are treated here with the medical, the jail is filthy, it's flooded, it's dirty. The food that they give us a lot of soy, you can't call your lawyers here. The phones are not free, I complained about this already, the visits, everything that's going on in here it's unsafe in here.

Brian Lehrer: Is that the Valhalla facility, T?

T: Yes, that's Westchester county, Valhalla New York. It's just a shame because another thing I wanted to bring up when people come home from jail, there's nothing to look for in Westchester county. You have a program out there called Rough Riders to the Rescue and it's located in Yonkers, New York. The CEO is Joaquin Dean and it's a program where guys can come home, that's in prison and come get a job and you have the GreatStar Foundation.

Parole has not given this information to the people that that's coming home, that's incarcerated for years. You have to go onto the shelter, when you get into the shelter, if you do find a job, say you find a job, you trying to save your money so that way you can go back into the side and get a room, they take your money from staying in the shelter.

Brian Lehrer: T, I'm going to leave it there. I appreciate all the issues that you've put on the table. I remember when you called us a couple of years ago, when-- actually it was last year at the beginning of the pandemic, I remember that when Andrea Stewart-Cousins was on and you were talking about the lack of access to be able to make phone calls to people's families when the pandemic was raging.

T, thank you for calling again. I know we're running short of time and I want to get one more caller on here. I'm going to take her and then DA Gonzalez, I'll invite you to react to both as we run out of time, Jacqueline and Queens, a public defender, you're on WNYC. Hello, Jacqueline?

Jacqueline: Hi, DA Gonzalez. I've been a public defender in the city for seven years. You mentioned Dollar Bail Holds and as you know a Dollar Bail is triggered when someone's arrested and arranged for a non-bail eligible crime and parole chooses to hold them to custody for a violation of parole terms, but that's only the picture. Are you committed to declining to prosecute all non-bail eligible offenses that come through your early case Assessment Bureau so folks don't find themselves in front of a judge, either with a parole hold in the first place or just unnecessarily involved in the justice system? Additionally, are you willing to bring your lower-level prosecutors on visits through Riker's intake to see for themselves the places that they're asking a judge to send folks when they request bail?

Eric Gonzalez: It's great questions. One of the things that we are in fact doing is having the lawyers visit Rikers Island. I'll be back at Rikers Island next week with another group of prosecutors. The visit that I had yesterday was with our Attorney General and some of the district attorneys and actually some members of the state legislature, but we are going to have a prosecutor's visit next week. I think it's super important that people see the conditions so they understand what they're doing when they're asking for jail sentences or bail.

In terms of the $1 Bail cases, we've looked at a number of these cases during COVID last year in 2020. We declined to prosecute a number of those cases and the judges still didn't release people on the parole holds. The Dollar Bail does not necessarily mean that the judge is going to not prosecute or not. It's going to release the person on the parole hold. We're going to take a look at all of those cases and we're going to be very specific on the cases that we move forward on that. In terms of the prior caller--

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Brian Lehrer: One at a time, go ahead, DA.

Eric Gonzalez: The prior caller, I think it's important also to say that in Brooklyn, we have a nationally recognized re-entry program that really works to prevent these things from happening. Anyone who's out there who's recently been released or is coming home. I encourage them to reach out to my re-entry program so we can make sure that we provide the support necessary so that you don't wind up reincarcerated even on a technical violation.

Brian Lehrer: Jacqueline briefly, you had a follow-up.

Jacqueline: I just wanted to address your answer regarding declining to prosecute. I'm asking whether you are specifically committed to declining to prosecute at the early case assessment stage before the case gets in front of a judge and before a parole hold would ever drop?

Eric Gonzalez: We're going to look at it each and every case as they come in. The way you said that all of these cases were not bail eligible that may not be accurate. Some of them may be bail eligible and the judge decides not to set bail, but we're going to take a look at each and every one of these cases.

Brian Lehrer: I'm going to extend by one brief, additional caller who may not even have a question for you DA Gonzales. We started the segment by trying to humanize, and say the name, and tell the story of the individual who died at Rikers Island on Sunday night. 42-year -old, Isa Abdul Karim, who was incarcerated merely for missing appointments with his parole officer and smoking marijuana, which was a parole violation. He caught COVID and died after he was reincarcerated from the overcrowded conditions at Rikers. We have a caller Abdullah in Manhattan, who says he was a friend of Mr. Karim. Abdullah, if that's the case, what would you like to say in the last 30 seconds or so of this segment? Thank you for calling.

Abdullah: Hi, how you doing? My name is Abdullah. My friend, Isa Abdul Karim, may Allah have mercy on his soul, and everybody, I believe, may Allah have mercy on their soul. Inshallah, by the grace of Allah today will be his funeral. This guy was a weak man, he used a wheelchair. How violent can he be to be in jail like that? Just a parole violation, now we have to send his body all the way back to Africa. I think the New York state should look into people like this and consider if they really want to lock them up or not. If this thing happens, it's only people that don't have family here, or is it happening to everybody out there? Because he was an immigrant. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Abdullah, thank you very much.

Eric Gonzalez: Thank you, Abdullah. My heart goes out to Mr. Karim's family, and friends. I want to callers to know that I was speaking to the doctors over at correctional health services yesterday. They have agreed to let me know of all high-risk people that they have currently detained on Rikers Island so that we can figure out, do they need to be there at all? That is a commitment that I make publicly that I'm going to look at everyone that CHF sends to me saying that they don't think they can be safely kept on Rikers Island.

There's a number of people with significant health conditions, myself and Tish James yesterday, were appalled to see some of the people kept in gyms and other places that had medical conditions. They were telling us they were not getting adequate care. Something I'm going to pay a lot of attention to. Abdullah, thank you for sharing about your friend.

Brian Lehrer: Well, thank you for making that announcement on the show, at least maybe that's a little bit of progress and a good way to end the segment. Brooklyn DA, Eric Gonzalez, thank you for giving us so much time today and talking to callers as well as me. Thank you very, very much.

Eric Gonzalez: Thank you, everyone.

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