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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good Friday morning, everyone. Today on the show, Omicron BA.5 surging in New York, New Jersey, Connecticut and nationally as Mayor Adams undoes COVID rules and infrastructure by the week. We will look at the numbers and the policies. Also, fireflies, they don't just light up for our entertainment you know. We'll look at this species that like blueberries are in high season in July, but first for our lead today, we turn to the plight of WNBA superstar Brittney Griner, who has been detained in Russia since February 17th on drug smuggling charges.

She allegedly had two cannabis-derived vape cartridges in her luggage when she entered that country, an amount that, let's face it, in most states in the US, would be considered merely for personal use, but she faces up to 10 years in prison and in a major development yesterday during the second hearing in her trial, Griner pleaded guilty. Here's a clip of her plea before the judge with her Russian interpreter.

Brittney Griner: I would like to plead guilty on the charges against me.

Interpreter: [Russian language]

Brittney: That I had no intention on breaking any Russian law.

Brian: The good news there is that some analysts are saying the guilty plea may be a route to getting Griner released sooner in some prisoner exchange. She does seem like a political prisoner to many Americans paying attention to this. Joining me now, Terri Jackson, Executive Director of the Women's National Basketball Players Association. That's the union for the WNBA players and Kavitha Davidson, Sports Writer and Correspondent on HBO's Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel. Terri, welcome to WNYC and Kavitha welcome back.

Terri Jackson: Thank you.

Kavitha Davidson: Thank you.

Brian: Terri, I see you're a lawyer and have been a law professor before becoming the WNBA player's union rep. How do you understand yesterday's guilty plea?

Terri: I've been saying for a while that Russia's process is its own and it's not one that we can compare to our own legal system and so we can't look at it and try to square it that way. I'm hopeful that this keeps the Russian process moving forward. Hopeful to see a resolution that gets us to a point where our government can do all that it can to get BG home. When I heard that guilty plea, it wasn't one that I had anticipated. Again, wasn't sure where this was going to go, but I got to tell you I admired BG very much in that moment.

She showed incredible bravery and what I'm also hopeful for in addition to that this process keeps moving forward, that she's shown the compassion and mercy that she deserves. That's where we are at this point. Russia's process is its own and not much that we can predict on what's next, but hopeful that this keeps moving forward, hopeful that she's shown the compassion and mercy that she deserves. We'll just see where we go from there.

Brian: Listeners, who's following the Brittney Griner case and has questions for our guests or for that matter anything you want to say about it. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer. Anybody discovering the WNBA through this? Sports may not be as important as people's basic freedom from being a political prisoner, if we want to call it that. Maybe this is bringing a little more attention to how great a player Brittney Griner is, how great a league the WNBA is, how women's basketball is as entertaining as men's basketball if people would pay attention.

We could even get into that. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer. Kavitha, Griner's attorney told Reuters yesterday, "We as her defense explained to her the possible consequences," meaning of her guilty plea, "Britney stressed that she committed the crime out of carelessness, getting ready to board a plane to Russia in a hurry not intending to break Russian law." I don't know, on the one hand, that's the excuse that everybody gives, "Oh, I put the cannabis in my luggage by accident. Can you talk a bit more about the context of this guilty plea as you see it and for that matter the charges for just these two vape cartridges, which seemed so extreme by modern standards?

Kavitha: I think extreme is exactly the word. If you look at the proportionality of what she's been charged with and what she's facing up to 10 years in prison. For something that, as you said over here would be in states where cannabis is not legal, a slap on the wrist, a ticket, no jail time, and it's legal in a lot of states in the US. I can see how that mistake might have been made. The guilty plea as far as I understand. It is in the hopes of expediting the process of what is usually a very long trial process.

As Terri mentioned, it's Russia's process. It's not what we as Americans think of as a judicial system, 99% of trials in Russia end up in convictions. I think the hope is that this speeds this along she's not being kept in particularly great conditions and I think the hope is just that this will give Russia an impetus to start negotiations for what is likely going to be a hostage or prisoner swap.

Brian: Some news sources are, I guess, speculating that this guilty plea was strategic, that Griner was hopeful that the Biden administration will engage Russia in a prisoner swap. Can you tell us more about what we know about that so far, like who does Russia want back and is the Biden administration reluctant to give whoever that is in exchange for Brittney Griner?

Kavitha: The US, in general, tends to be reluctant to engage in prisoner swaps. In this particular case, it's heightened because of how heightened tensions are between Russia and the US, the person that most people think Russia is looking for a swap for is a guy named Viktor Bout also known as the ''Merchant of Death.'' He's a global arms sealer who's currently serving a 25-year sentence in the United States and it's frankly not a one-to-one swap. What Brittney Griner is accused of doing is in no way anywhere near an even swap for what Viktor Bout has been convicted of. It does seem as though that's the deal that Russia is hoping to get done on the other side. Russia does also have other Americans in their custody right now.

The name that is most prominently out there is Paul Whelan. A former Marine who's being held in Russia on what we believe are false espionage charges. I think that some experts that I've talked to have said that in the hopes of getting Brittney Griner back that they can also get Paul Whelan back. Paul Whelan's family has been very vocal about how Brittney Griner situation has brought light and brought attention to the plight of other Americans that are being detained abroad. I think at the end of the day, it makes me very uncomfortable to talk about the proportionality or the value of swapping one person for another because Brittney Griner is a human being and an American. She and Paul Whelan both deserve to be home.

Brian Lehrer: Louise in Ocean County. You're on WNYC. Hi, Louise.

Louise: Good morning. It's nice to have the WNBA representation there on your show, Brian, because these women in that whole institution has not gotten the proper props that it deserves and the reason I'm calling is I hope that from this lesson that BG has demonstrated for us that the WNBA actually watch these girls and protect them and know that if they're going international, this is why they call America the land of the free, that you cannot be bringing, transporting, bringing back, buying whatever it is in other continents because this is the situation that we're in now.

Not to mention now it's political international swapping prisoners for a person who wanted to vape. It's like, no, but it's now it's their car. It's playing poker with your life. I just feel that with the WNBA and the women's soccer league and all that stuff, we're trying to make strides here so that they can be on the even ground with the men and here we are being punished for trying to make extra money.

Louise: If the girl was making what she's supposed to be making here in America, in the first place, she wouldn't be over there in Russia. That's just my two bits and a gold WNBA, I'm a longtime fan of Liberty going back to MSG, and we still have not met with the men as far as economics. BG is just an example of what not to do, and let's take care of our women here in America, then stop trying to put us down. It's a whole thing with women now. Look already with Washington, now Biden has to save the day or try to, or whatever the case is. Every problem is Biden's problem. That's a whole another story, but going back to the WNBA, we should be on equal footing as far as financial and pay and keep these women home. I'll take my answers. [crosstalk]

Brian: Louise, thank you so much. Louise, thank you for all of it. You should have your own show. Bringing so many important issues into that. Terri Jackson is the WNBA union rep, let me throw that to you. I could ask you a particular follow-up question or two, but where do you want to enter after Louise?

Terri: Louise said a lot. There's so much there. First of all, let me just say, I appreciate Louise's passion. I appreciate her fandom. She, being a true fan of the Liberty going back to Madison Square Garden. She knows what she's talking about. She's got a lot of strong feelings and opinions about this, and I appreciate all of that energy. Louise don't let us down stay with us on this, and she's right. As proud as I am of the 2020 CBA that we negotiated, I recognized that when it came to salary and overall compensation, but particularly salary, we've got to do more. We've got to do better. We've got our eye on what's next.

We accomplished a lot in this CBA. It's a lot to be proud of, but we know, we knew then, and we know now, that there's more work ahead. Louise and to others, I'm working on it. Trust me the opportunity to increase their pay, increase their salary. I want to be very specific about the words that I'm using. Salary is my ultimate objective and goal. This is a pay equity or inequity for that matter, issue. When you think about why BG was there, BG told her wife Cherelle, she told her teammates that she didn't even really want to go overseas this year. That this would be the last year because of the toll on the body and the opportunity just to be home with family after the WNBA season ends. That's what she was looking forward to.

The fact that this has happened weighs heavily on me considering that, and the decision-making, the calculus that went into it, but at the end of the day, and I don't know the exact number, but I believe it's over $1 million. That was that opportunity for her, and so she couldn't turn that down to be a professional athlete and particularly a woman. The window for making money is a short one. They look to maximize that. They also look to maximize the opportunity to develop their gain in a longer season than what they have in the WNBA. There's all of that.

The resources and the experience that they have overseas, as I've been learning, when they go to Turkey or France or Spain, to Israel, to Australia is very different than in the W. Again, we've got work to do. I've got my eye on the ball. I'm committed to that.

Brian: Terri, can you tell everybody. Go ahead. You want to finish the thought? Go ahead.

Terri: Yes. I just want to finish this, but to honor BG and to do right by my members, we have to have the honest conversation about pay equity, about investment in this sport, about changing the business model, doing more for marketability. Bringing in more corporate partners that align with who we are and the values of the women of the W. To be black, to be brown, to be a woman, to be a working parent, to be a member of the LGBTQ community or an ally of that community. Those are our superpowers, and so we need corporate partners that understand that and align with that, and want to maximize who we are as W players. Sorry, next time. Sorry.

Brian: That's okay. I'm sorry for interrupting. Could you tell everybody what Brittney Griner makes? For much of the audience as you well know, they never heard of Brittney Griner until this incident with Russia, but she is maybe the best player in the WNBA. People say maybe the best player ever in the WNBA. When we're talking about a GOAT, a possible greatest of all time, what does that translate in to dollars for Brittney Griner?

Terri: Salaries in the W, a max salary could look depending on where you are and your team, and where they are in the cap could look somewhere like $230,000, $260,000. That's what we're talking about. That's what I'm saying when I talk about this salary. There are opportunities to additional compensation opportunities through team marketing agreements, through league marketing agreements, there are additional substantial dollars, but that's why I'm focused on salary.

Because those additional compensation dollars through those marketing agreements aren't going to be for everybody. Not everybody's going to get a league marketing agreement. That could be $100, 000, $200,000, not everybody's going to get that. That's why I've got to focus on, and we've got to focus on the salary, the salary cap, the increased investment that provides those additional dollars to raise all BOATs.

Brian: How do you think we get to more popularity for the WNBA? If we assume that the quality of the fan experience is the same as men's NBA, if only people would get invested, if only people would know the players, to have the relationships with, I think sports fans, we root for the people who we know on our teams. When people know Brittney Griner, they become fans of her team in Phoenix. When people know LeBron James, they become fans of his team, et cetera, et cetera.

How do you get there? How do you get more of a fan base than you have? It's starting in some women's sports, Women's soccer, arguably at the highest level is more popular than Men's in this country now. The top tennis players can draw as much of a crowd in some cases, how do you get there in more sports?

Terri: Well, I love this question. I'm the wife of a former NBA player and retired NBA player. I'm the mother of a current NBA player. I have a perspective being in the seat that I sit as the union rep, as the union lady for the W. I see the opportunities that are in men's sports, where they have come from, where they are now. I don't look to compare, and I say this all the time to my members, but I say, "We see what's possible for us." I don't know that the fan experience is the same. I think there's the opportunity to grow the game and increase the investment, so that in-game experience looks different. For those fans who are watching on television, that their broadcast experience is different.

First of all, let's make sure that it's not hard to find a game. Let's increase the broadcast windows and opportunities for our fans in different parts of the country to see the games. Because in the bubble, in the 2020 year, we learned that when you made more games available, then you saw more fans, you saw the viewership rise. We had the best ratings in the 2020 season, in the bubble season that all professional sports had. We had the best ratings of any sports male or female sports. We were really pretty proud of that. We laughed when we heard our counterparts in Men's sports lamenting that their ratings were down.

They said, "But that's because we had to go against all the other sports that were coming back at the same time." We laughed at that. We said, "This is when we play all the time. We're always competing against hockey or against baseball or college football towards the end of our season. Nobody has given us a break, but if you increase the opportunities, the broadcast windows, if you put the games on television, you will have increased viewership. If you don't, then you're looking to create an obstacle that we can never get over."

I also say that if you go to a game in person, if you are in arena, our players are the most accessible players. Probably a little too accessible because I get concerned a little bit about their safety, but they are so giving of themselves. You see their personality, and it's just an incredible experience. If you go to a W game, you are a fan. If you have the opportunity to go to a game in person, you will become a fan because what they do on the court will resonate with you. You will find them so relatable immediately. That's what we can do. What I see from my seat, the position I have personally, the one that I have professionally, I see so much opportunity and possibility, but we need to have partners who are willing to come in with us and make it happen.

Brian: You want to piggyback on anything Terri was saying there from the journalist perspective?

Kavitha: This is a question that gets asked a lot, and everything Terri said is exactly right. I'll just specify a couple of things. One is, absolutely when you put women's sports, when you put the W on TV, people watch. I believe ratings for the WNBA finals last year were up 40% over either the year before or two years before, but it's not enough to just put them on television. You have to put them on primetime, and you have to put them on a channel that people can find, as Terri said. I remember several years ago, ESPN was actually airing WNBA games at 2:00 PM on weekdays, and that's not accessible for anybody.

Those kinds of programming decisions that come from the top really do matter, and it is the cycle where if you put the investment into women's sports, if you take the, I guess leap of faith, that people will watch. They will watch and they will buy the merchandise and all of that. It's not just women. Men really do. Men who are basketball fans will watch the W. It's been really encouraging to see the outpouring of support from NBA players, in particular, because game recognize game. They recognize that these are athletes and that they're ballers just as they are.

From a sponsorship and marketing perspective, my background is in financial writing for the business of sports. For years, I have written about that. for marketers to ignore women's sports is just leaving money on the table because the investment level is lower. It's so much lower than it is for an entry than it is for men's sports, but the payoff relative to what your initial investment is, is so much higher. It's a growth market. The W has very much proven that in the last few years, that if you just take a little bit of a chance, the rewards from that can be reaped exponentially.

Brian: Leslie in the Bronx, you're on WNYC. Hello, Leslie.

Leslie: Hi. I'd like to know the position of the team that Brittney plays for over there. Has that team and the coach of that team said anything about her position, and are they supporting her, or are they too afraid to do anything?

Brian: That's a great question, Leslie. Terri, can I throw that to you because I know you talked about how Brittney Griner is a hero in Russia?

Terri: She is. I think it's a great question, and unfortunately, I don't know the answer. I'm going to look to find the answer on that. Perhaps I'll get back to you, Brian, and you can get back to your listeners because I think it's a fantastic question. They take basketball really seriously over there. They love women's basketball, and yes, I say BG is a hero over there because she's contributed to more than a few championships for the team over there in Russia. I want to believe that they are strong supporters of her. I bet they are. I would wonder though, how they could show that kind of support safely for them. I don't know. I think it's a great question, but I don't know the answer.

Brian: Sarah and Glen Cove, you're on WNYC. Hi, Sarah.

Sarah: Hi, good morning. I just wanted to say that for me immediately upon hearing about this months ago when she was first detained, I tied it right into Ukraine. The hypocrisy is just so glaring, the fact that the Russian Olympic athletes are routinely using illegal drugs.

Brian: Cheating.

Sarah: That has been-- Yes, and that has been almost condoned by the state in a way. Then this happens to someone who's American, who is a member of the LGBTQ community, which has been such a huge issue that has been used and weaponized, even in the war with Ukraine. It's just absolutely horrifying that for a little bit of cannabis in vaping is used to do this. It's so incredibly political. It's so weaponizing of someone who is African-American, LGBTQ, and American. It is just awful. That's just what I want to say. I've heard people say, "Well, she shouldn't have had that."

That little bit of cannabis in the vape, which is a ridiculous argument. Look at what we're dealing with here. She is absolutely a political prisoner, and it's just awful. I'm really glad you're taking up her case here. I don't want to veer away in any way. There is absolutely no justification for what is happening to her whatsoever on any level, especially given who is imprisoning her in this way. She's being used as a weapon in the war against Ukraine and against the United States, you could say in a way too.

Brian: Thank you very much for your call. Kavitha Davidson, for you as a journalist, do you use the word hostage as Sarah there puts it, describing her as a hostage in the war against Ukraine? Or I cited people earlier calling her a political prisoner, do we use those words? Should we use those words?

Kavitha: I think it's understandable in just regular conversation to use those words because that's how it feels and you wouldn't be wrong for feeling that way. I think the most accurate and the most specific term that I've heard from people within the State Department is diplomatic hostage and that is different than a non-diplomatic hostage. The specificity there matters, and it's a little bit complicated, but it's essentially that she is being used as a bargaining chip in diplomacy and negotiations.

Brian: One more call. Hillary in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hello, Hillary.

Hillary: Hi. I like that last comment about the hypocrisy. What I wanted to say is I am so worried about strategy being discussed all the time, legal strategies, military strategies because Russia is listening, and I don't know why we keep talking about strategy. I also feel that traveling to Russia, or anywhere outside of the country, one does have to be careful about what you carry. [unintelligible 00:27:40] but I'm not giving Russia a single dollar or Ruble. I think Brittney made nice money, although it may not have been competitive with the men, but $1 million, maybe she could have gotten that in another country. I just really think we need to--

Brian: To stay out of Russia. Hillary, thank you very much. To Hillary's point about talking about the strategy being very public, calling Russia a taker of hostages or political prisoners, I want to play a clip of Brittney Griner's wife, Cherelle Griner, who talked about this in a CBS This Morning interview on Wednesday, about how their initial strategy was to lay low, to not make it harder to gain a diplomatic release by rocking the boat and embarrassing or humiliating Russia or Putin. Listen to what she said.

Cherelle Griner: It's a thin line to walk in initially. I was told, "Just we're going to try and handle this behind scenes. Let's not raise her value and stay quiet." I did that and respectfully, we're over 140 days at this point. That does not work, and so I will not be quiet anymore.

Brian: "I will not be quiet anymore." Terri, this is something you must have thought about. As a union rep for her and all the other players in the league, your job is to raise your voice. How hard has this been for you since February?

Terri: That's a great question. First of all, I don't know if Sarah's still listening, but I love Sarah's comment previously, and so I just wanted to get that out there. I loved everything she said. You're right. Initially, it was out of respect for BG's safety and anybody who follows the W knows that it is contrary to who we are, who the members of our union are. When there is an issue that they believe in, that needs their voice, that they look to champion, they get informed. They get informed and they are very loud. They will make noise. They will use their platform, use that moment to bring attention to it and share their voice and their views.

It was hard for us in the beginning, but we were told that the best support, in the beginning, is to lay low, and that would be best for her safety. That was also great for us because as I said, we look to get informed, W players never shoot from the hip when they're looking to champion a course or take a position on an issue. They don't shoot from the hip, they look to get informed. That quiet phase, in the beginning, that initial quiet phase, allowed us to align with experts. There's a woman from the University of Pennsylvania, Kimberly St. Julian-Varnon, who is an expert in Russian-Ukrainian affairs, what it means to be Black, what it means to be woman, or queer, over in that region of the country.

We aligned with her to understand more about what this was, what BG was going to be experiencing, what she was going to be facing, what the timeline of this could be. We steeled ourselves in that quiet phase. Once the State Department determined that she was wrongfully detained and you're right, words matter, words matter, that she was wrongfully detained that raise the stakes, Cherelle Greiner, we heard from her team, that she was looking for our support, she was looking for us to be more vocal and to be actively engaged in this.

We said, "That's go-time for us." It's not only go-time for us but for civil rights, for human rights organizations, athlete ally, the WIN with Black Women Network, a powerful network of Black women from across all industries. I had the opportunity to present to them BG's case and so did Terrell, and they understood exactly what needed to happen. We look to engage our communities and our networks of people in organizations to really make noise around this and to make sure that the administration was taking this seriously, that they had made BG a priority, Paul Whelan a priority. That's where we are today.

I respect, I respect the experts. I respect the information that they gave us. I don't question it, they are on the ground, or they are plugged into this. They know better than I. We have been following that lead, and so this is where we are today. Again, I feel like there's forward movement and there's progress. Your listener also said, "Why are we talking so much about it?" We're talking about what happened before.

I'm not looking to talk about what may happen in the future and how the Biden administration will work to get BG and Paul Whelan and others home, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to engage in that conversation. Out of respect for everybody who is working really hard on this. I am going to say to you, Brian, to your listeners, we need to stand. We need to sign the petition at wearebg.org. We need to stand with this administration. Let President Biden know that we are with him. That he is our Commander in Chief and whatever he needs to do to get them back home, them back home, we stand with him.

Brian: Terri Jackson, Executive Director of the union representing the WNBA players, and Kavitha Davidson, correspondent, and writer with HBO's Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel. Thank you both so much for coming on today.

Terri: Thank you.

Kavitha: Thank you.

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