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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now, the latest episode of our Life By The Numbers Quiz, which we'll keep doing all this week. Who wants to play and try to win a chocolate babka? 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692. We did Population By The Numbers last Wednesday, Public Opinion By The Numbers Thursday, New York City History By The Numbers on Friday. Today, it's Infrastructure By The Numbers.

Spoiler alert. The first question is, does average New Yorker use more or less electricity than the average American? Does the average New Yorker use more or less electricity than the average American? That's question one. All you need to do-- Producers heads up, because I can't tell you this in the intercom today. [chuckles] All you need is one answer right, and you'll win one of the babkas that we're offering, the same chocolate of babkas that we're offering as thank you gifts in the membership charts. Who wants to play? 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692.

With us for this, and writing many of the questions herself, is a favorite guest on the show for all things infrastructure ever since her book, The Works: Anatomy of The City came out in 2005. Kate Ascher is a professor of urban development at Columbia University's Graduate School of Architecture, Planning, and Preservation. She's a former Assistant Director of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which might just figure into a quiz question or two.

Her other books include The Heights: Anatomy of a Skyscraper and The Way To Go: Moving by Sea, Land, and Air. All infrastructure books from Kate Ascher. Kate, thanks for helping us with Life By The Numbers Infrastructure Quiz. I know you're off in the French Alps somewhere today, as it turns out. Welcome back to WNYC, and hello from New York.

Kate Ascher: Thanks, Brian. It's great to be back, and I'm happy to be here.

Brian Lehrer: Let's jump right to our first contestant, and it's Chris in Greenpoint. Chris, you're on WNYC. Do we have you?

Chris: Yes. Good morning [unintelligible 00:02:29]

Brian Lehrer: Kate, do you have that question set? Do you want to ask him question one?

Kate Ascher: Sure. I'll just repeat the question. Do New Yorkers use more or less electricity than the average American? Chris?

Chris: I'm going to say that we use less on average.

Brian Lehrer: Less is absolutely right.

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Brian Lehrer: Guess what? Since we're on a one-right-answer standard today, you win a chocolate babka. Talk about it, Kate. I think a lot of New Yorkers would guess that. Give us the numbers and give us the reasons.

Kate Ascher: Right. Amazingly, New Yorkers use about half of what the average American uses. New Yorkers use about 1.4% of all the electricity in the US, but we've got about one out of every 38 people here. You can imagine that part of that savings comes because we live in apartments and we do other things that don't require a huge amount of electricity to power individual houses. We are really doing our bit for the environment compared to the average American.

Brian Lehrer: David in Woodbridge. Are you ready to play? Hi, David.

David: Hello.

Brian Lehrer: All right.

David: I'm ready to play.

Brian Lehrer: Now, we know that because of mass transit and density in general, New Yorkers use less electricity than the average American. Robin, hit him up with question two. Oh, Robin, still in the last segment.

Kate Ascher: Kate.

Brian Lehrer: Kate.

Kate Ascher: Right. Next question. What transit system contains the earliest rail tunnel under the Hudson River?

Brian Lehrer: What transit system? The clue, David, is it's obviously a regional transit system that contains-

David: Is it the PA--

Brian Lehrer: - the earliest rail tunnel under the Hudson.

David: Is it the PATH?

Brian Lehrer: It is-

Kate Ascher: It is.

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Brian Lehrer: - the PATH system. Send a babka to Woodbridge. We're going to take your address off the air. Talk about that, the PATH system. Of course, I gave him a pretty healthy clue there. For people who live within the city limits, or more even in the Northern parts of New Jersey, or elsewhere, Long Island, Westchester, think about the PATH system very much. That was the earliest under the Hudson?

Kate Ascher: Right, the PATH system. That's right. The PATH system used to be called the Hudson and Manhattan Tubes because they literally were tubes that ran under the river. They were first, really the first tunnel before you had road tunnels, before you had other rail tunnels. Those tubes brought trains in from New Jersey to Manhattan. Of course, today they're part of the regional transportation system and run by the Port Authority, but they are actually the oldest thing that's running under the river.

Brian Lehrer: All right. We've had a Brooklyn caller and Brooklyn winner so far. We've added a New Jersey caller, a New Jersey winner so far. Let's go to Khamenei in Valley Stream as we go to the south shore along the southern state there. Hi, Khamenei? Ready to play?

Khamenei: Hello. Yes, please.

Brian Lehrer: What you got for her?

Kate Ascher: Great. Question three. Why is Penn Station in New York City called Penn Station?

Brian Lehrer: Good question for a possible Long Island railroad user.

Khamenei: I don't know. Is it for the Pennsylvania Railroads or--

Brian Lehrer: It is for the-

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Brian Lehrer: - Pennsylvania Railroad.

Khamenei: Oh. Monopoly helps.

Brian Lehrer: You pulled that one out of your hat.

Khamenei: Monopoly. [chuckles]

Kate Ascher: Very good. The Pennsylvania Railroad was the big monopoly that was known as the Pennsy, and it built Penn Station to serve its own trains.

Brian Lehrer: Who knew that the game of monopoly could help win a listener from Valley Stream a chocolate babka from Russ & Daughters. Yes, the Pennsylvania Railroad, also known as the Pennsy, as you say, the original-- Well, did they own the building? How far and wide did the Pennsylvania Railroad go? I'm sure it went further than New York to Pennsylvania.

Kate Ascher: The Pennsylvania Railroad covered pretty much half the country. It went out up north and it went towards Chicago. It was a huge railroad. Of course, ultimately, it went out to Long Island as well. It was a big operation. It did build the railroad station at Penn Station. It was, of course, taken down in 1965, much to the chagrin of the historic preservationists who really got on their suits and tried to prevent it. That was built by the private sector completely and taken down by the government with the government's permission.

Brian Lehrer: Why do people reminisce so fondly about the old Penn Station? I don't know it. What was beautiful about it, or what was great about it? I could list the detriments of the current Penn Station, but what was great about the old Penn Station?

Kate Ascher: Well, the old Penn Station was probably most akin to Grand Central Station. If you've ever looked up and seen the soaring sky in Grand Central Station, it was enormous, beautiful. The architecture was [unintelligible 00:08:07]. It was huge and spacious and very grand, much like Union Station in Philadelphia and some of the other great stations that have not been taken down. It's a place where you really felt space.

I would say that today's Penn Station is about the opposite. It's a place where you feel pretty confined and can't quite see where you're going. The old Penn Station was really an incredible building but, of course, very expensive for the Pennsylvania Railroad to operate it by the time the Pennsylvania Railroad didn't have a lot of money in the late '50s and early '60s. That really dealt the death now to that building, unfortunately.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Let's go to our next contestant. Rosemary in Astoria. Hi, Rosemary. You're on WNYC.

Rosemary: Hi. Good morning.

Brian Lehrer: What you got for Rosemary, Kate?

Kate Ascher: Hi, Rosemary.

Brian Lehrer: Let's get a Queens' winner here. We haven't had a Queens' winner yet.

Kate Ascher: A Queens' winner with a Manhattan question, I'm afraid. Where is what was originally known as Fourth Avenue in Manhattan?

Rosemary: Oh. Was it Lexington Avenue?

Brian Lehrer: Oh.

Kate Ascher: Oh, you're close.

Brian Lehrer: Sorry, Rosemary. So close but wrong. It was Park avenue. Thanks for playing. Thanks for trying. Park Avenue was originally named Fourth Avenue. There is a little bit of Fourth Avenue still, right? I've been on it.

Kate Ascher: That's right. There's a little bit of Fourth Avenue that runs from about 7th up to 14th. The rest is known as Park Avenue in a piece of ingenious marketing. When Park Avenue was covered and Boulevard that it became Park Avenue, but it really fits equidistant from Third and Fifth Avenue. When the grid was laid out, there really was a Fourth Avenue. It just happened to have a railroad running down it.

Brian Lehrer: In a park?

Kate Ascher: The park came later. The park came on top of the railroad. If you think about what runs under it now, everything that runs into Grand Central Station runs right under Park Avenue up to 42nd Street.

Brian Lehrer: How about that? All right. Let's try another Queens contestant. Alexander in Queens, you're on WNYC. Hey, Alexander.

Alexander: Hi there.

Brian Lehrer: We've got another north-south avenues of Manhattan question for you. However, go ahead there, Kate.

Kate Ascher: Alexander, what two north-south avenues were not part of Manhattan's original street grid?

Alexander: I'm guessing it's probably either the far end of the city or 11th and 12th. I guess I'll go with 11th and 12th.

Brian Lehrer: Is not right, sorry to say. Let's give one more caller a shot at that one. We'll take a Manhattan caller for this one. Zoe in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Zoe.

Zoe: Hello.

Brian Lehrer: You want to take a shot at which two north-south avenues?

Zoe: Oh, no. For this question also? Okay.

Brian Lehrer: Were not part of Manhattan's original street grid. I'll give you a clue, that Alexander was on the wrong track when he was thinking they're at the wings. He was thinking maybe 11th and 12th Avenue. They're not at the wings.

Zoe: Okay. Maybe Columbus. No, it's wrong. It's wrong.

Brian Lehrer: No, it's wrong. Zoe, thanks for trying. We appreciate it. All right. Kate, reveal the answer to what turns out to be a difficult question about the Manhattan street grid.

Kate Ascher: Zoe, so it's Lexington and Madison Avenue were both added, and they were split in between obviously Fifth and Fourth, which was Park and Fourth and Third. They were added because property developers wanted greater access to land in the area. Actually, if you're walking across the east side, you'll see that those blocks between Fifth and Madison, and Madison and Park, for instance, are smaller. They're faster than they are between, for instance, Third and Second, or Second and First. You've got so many blocks there in the street.

Brian Lehrer: I was wondered why those were short blocks, because we talk about those long avenue blocks, that is the blocks between the avenues, yet there they're short around Lexington and Madison. You just gave us the historical reason why. Heather in Fishkill, you're on WNYC. Ready for a question?

Heather: Yes. Morning.

Brian Lehrer: Good morning. This is of relevant to the Northern suburbs question, as we have a caller from Fishkill here indirectly. I hope that's a clue and not misleading. Hit her up, Kate.

Kate Ascher: Okay. It is a clue. What major piece of infrastructure once stood on the site of the New York Public Library at 42nd street?

Heather: I have to think about this a little bit.

Brian Lehrer: Don't think of infrastructure as only roads necessarily, or electricity, the two areas we've been on mostly so far.

Heather: Oh, God. This one is a little difficult. I don't really know.

Brian Lehrer: It's all right.

Heather: I have no clue.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Heather, thanks for trying anyway. This surprised me. I didn't know this until I read it on your list of quiz questions. Thanks for writing these quiz questions for us. Reveal the answer, piece of infrastructure that once stood on the side of the New York Public Library Main Branch.

Kate Ascher: Right where the public library is now was a huge reservoir that carried clean water to New Yorkers from essentially what are now the Northern suburbs, from the Croton's Aqueduct and the Croton system, because the water was so contaminated. As New York grew, they needed to find a source of clean water. Water came from reservoirs far north of the city by gravity and was held at a huge towering reservoir with Egyptian architecture right on the site of the public library at 42nd and 5th.

Brian Lehrer: Now, we get most of our water, that is people in New York City per se, get most of their water from reservoirs a little upstate, right?

Kate Ascher: Well, interestingly enough, the first reservoir that was used, the first system, is still in use, the Croton system, but it's got two huge sisters that are on the west side of the Hudson River. The Croton system is on the east side and the other two are on the west side in the Catskill, and they bring enormous amounts of water because, of course, New York is much larger than it used to be.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Next contestant. Ali in Brooklyn. Ali, you're on WNYC. Ready for a question?

Ali: Hi. Yes, I'm ready.

Brian Lehrer: This is another hard one, I think, but it's really interesting. Go ahead, Kate.

Kate Ascher: Ali, what structure in lower Manhattan determined the maximum height of buildings in the city until 1883?

Brian Lehrer: That is, there's a very famous structure in lower Manhattan. It's not very tall. This is not a skyscraper, because we are only talking about up until 1883, but it's a very famous structure in the history of early New York, lower Manhattan. You couldn't build above that, or they didn't build above that. Any guess?

Ali: You said 1880s?

Brian Lehrer: Until the 1880s.

Ali: Until the 1880s.

Kate Ascher: I can actually give you a hint if you want it. It was built in 1845.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, that's maybe not that much of a hint.

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Brian Lehrer: Oh, I was thinking about an 1830s building. I always focus on 1830s architecture, not 1840. I'll give you another clue. It's a religious institution.

Kate Ascher: That's a better one.

Ali: That does help. Okay. I'm going to go with Trinity Church.

Brian Lehrer: That is-

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Brian Lehrer: - right. Even that, you had to know something, right? Not everybody knows Trinity Church, even though it is a super famous in its circles, a building in lower Manhattan, and if you know some of the history of that period in Manhattan. Ali, hang on. We're going to take your address and send you a chocolate babka. Why Trinity Church? We're determining your wording? Is it determined the maximum height of buildings in Manhattan until 1883/ Why?

Kate Ascher: Well, I think it was partly about it being religious, and that people felt that nothing should be taller than that, because you wanted to look up and respect the church. I will say that it wasn't very long after it. It only lasted as the tallest building for those 40-some years. As soon as the Brooklyn Bridge came along, they decided that that didn't matter and threw that restriction out, because the towers of the Brooklyn Bridge were actually taller.

Brian Lehrer: We're going to try to give away one more chocolate babka for a question that I think people are going to find really interesting if they don't know the answer to it. We're going to give this shot to Joyce in Manhattan. Joyce, you're on WNYC. Hi there.

Joyce: Hello.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Go for question eight, Kate, and then we're out of time.

Kate Ascher: Okay. Joyce, the blizzard of 1888 caused New York City to make a change to how New Yorkers got their electricity and telecommunications. What change was that?

Joyce: Oh, that's rough. I would assume maybe the wiring or the wiring and the poles and the way which we get it, or maybe the development of ConEd.

Brian Lehrer: You're so on the right track.

Joyce: - the national grid.

Brian Lehrer: What about those? For you living in Manhattan, what about those wires and poles?

Joyce: Well, a lot of the time, that's what carries electricity, right? Back in the day, it was through that. Sorry, I'm trying to think. I would assume instead of electrical wires, they would implement--

Brian Lehrer: Well, they're still electrical wires, but do you see them above your head in Manhattan?

Joyce: No, no, so they would be-- Instead of being off ground, were they put lower? I'm sorry. I'm trying to say--

Brian Lehrer: Say it. Say it.

Joyce: It's probably instead of being off ground, they--

Kate Ascher: You're very close. [chuckles]

Brian Lehrer: Yes. We're going to send you a chocolate babka for getting that close.

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Brian Lehrer: Hang on, Joyce. We'll take your address off the air. It was because of the blizzard of '88, which cut off the city for multiple days, that the cables and the wires, electricity wires were placed underground. That's the difference between Manhattan and, I guess, some other parts of New York City, and most of the rest of the country, where you do see the poles with the electricity wires overhead, and you have down power lines when there are big storms and things like that. A lot of New York City doesn't have that. Kate, we have 30 seconds for less comment on that.

Kate Ascher: That's right. Just lots of New York City doesn't have it in just one note that that blizzard, which dumped up to 55 inches of snow, happened on March 11th, 1888, which means that it was basically this week in history. Don't put your snow boots away because it could happen again.

Brian Lehrer: [laughs] Kate Ascher teaches at Columbia. She's got great books on infrastructure, including The Heights: Anatomy of a Skyscraper, The Works: Anatomy of a City, The way To Go: Moving By Sea, Land, and Air. Thank you so much for helping us out with our World By The Numbers Infrastructure Quiz. Thanks, Kate.

Kate Ascher: My pleasure. Thanks.

 

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