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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Today is Thursday, February 3rd, and I'll start with two things about yesterday, February 2nd. One is that we didn't mention that the New York City groundhog, Staten Island Chuck did not see his shadow, so we're not supposed to have six more weeks of winter. Sure enough, boom, it's an Aprilish day today, isn't it? With rain and temperature supposed to go to around 50. So, maybe Groundhog's Day is real.

Also, after the show, we learned that Staten Island Chuck may soon have new company, Staten Island Bill de Blasio. Did you hear this? The new congressional district lines being approved by the New York State Legislature this week put de Blasio's home in Park Slope in the same congressional district as Staten Island, which it wasn't before. Staten Island and that whole district is currently represented by the city's only Republican in Congress, Nicole Malliotakis. De Blasio is now reported to be considering a run for Congress himself this year. Staten Island Chuck meets Staten Island Bill de Blasio, maybe.

Also, about yesterday for you numbers wonks out there, it was a day that only occurs once every 11 years. It was 2/2/22. We haven't had something like that since 1/1/11, and we won't have another one until March 3, 2033. 3/3/33. Some numbers that don't matter at all for those of you who like to watch the odometer on your car go to the next 1,000, but here's the number that does matter.

Two-thirds of the players in the National Football League are Black, but head coaches of the 32 teams, just one Black head coach. That's after 20 years of a rule requiring candidates of color to at least be interviewed for those positions, and the obvious pipeline of qualified people coming from the ranks of the player squads. In fact, the National Football League is "managed like a plantation." That's a former Miami Dolphins head coach, Brian Flores, who grew up in Brownsville Brooklyn, by the way, characterized the league in a class-action lawsuit alleging racism in hiring and firing practices against the NFL and three teams, including the New York Giants on Tuesday.

The lawsuit goes on to say that, "The NFL's 32 owners, none of whom are Black, watch the games from the top NFL stadiums in their luxury boxes, while their majority Black workforce put their bodies on the line, taking vicious hits and suffering debilitating injuries to their bodies and their brains, while the NFL and its owners reap billions of dollars. Many players desire to coach for their post-playing careers, unfortunately for Black individuals, that is easier said than done," from the Brian Flores lawsuit. Here's a clip of coach Flores on ESPN show Get Up yesterday, explaining the basis for the lawsuit as he sees it.

Brian Flores: We need change. The hiring practices in the National Football League, the numbers speak for themselves. There's one Black head coach. The league's filled with 70% of Black players. I know there are capable coaches in this league to lead teams. I have some on my staff. I know the majority of them, I would say. I know what kind of integrity and character, and leadership that they have, and they deserve an opportunity, a real opportunity, not a Rooney Rule opportunity where a box is checked.

Brian Lehrer: The Rooney Rule that Flores is referring to is what I referred to before, it makes it mandatory for NFL teams to interview ethnic-minority candidates for head coaching jobs. That was adopted back in 2003 to address the racial disparities for head coaching and other positions, and the fact that, at the time, there were only three Black head coaches. Well, fast forward 19 years to today, and now there's just one Black head coach.

Some good the Rooney Rule did, and Flores alleges the Black coaches are now just being given sham interviews to satisfy the rule. Meanwhile, compare those numbers to the NBA, where 12 teams out of the 30 have Black head coaches. Why the difference and where's the progress? Here's another clip of Flores describing why he's risked his career and future job prospects to go public and sue the league.

Brian Flores: This isn't about me, this is bigger than football. This is about equal opportunity for qualified Black candidates, not just in football, but everywhere, in all industries.

Brian Lehrer: Everywhere, in all industries. The Brian Flores lawsuit forced a racial reckoning in the NFL. Well, that's the title of our next guest's latest piece in The Undefeated. Joining us now is William Rhoden, columnist for The Undefeated, and former longtime sports columnist at the New York Times, as many of you New York sports readers know, and author of the book from back in 2007, "Forty Million Dollar Slaves: The Rise, Fall, and Redemption of the Black Athlete."  Bill, it's always great to have you on the show. Welcome back to WNYC.

William Rhoden: Hey, Brian, how are you doing? It's always a pleasure to speak with you.

Brian Lehrer: I have to give you a heads up, and I have to give all the listeners a heads up. President Biden pretty soon is expected to make a statement about this military strike in Syria, and we're going to take it when he does. We're probably going to get interrupted during this conversation, but we don't know exactly when. Just a heads up for everybody. Bill, at the center of this lawsuit, is a text message mistakenly sent to the wrong person by Bill Belichick, the legendary coach of the New England Patriots. Maybe you could start there for the people who don't follow sports and don't know the story yet. What did Bill Belichick's text message say, and what does it prove according to Brian Flores's lawsuit?

William Rhoden: What it proves is that Belichick is a better coach than he is a texter, so to speak. [chuckles]

Brian Lehrer: It's a start.

William Rhoden: What it does, and what's so wonderful about this is that, for years, many of us have been suspecting-- talked about the Rooney Rule, the sham interviews, but there's never any proof, this offers proof because Belichick texts Brian Daboll, who was going to be-- he thought that he was texting the New York Giants Brian, congratulating him. Instead, he was texting Brian Flores. This was two days before Flores was supposed to be interviewed for the head coaching job.

In other words, the Giants had already made their decision in direct conflict with the Rooney Rule that you're supposed to interview Black candidates before you make their rule, but this is what a lot of teams have been doing probably in the 20 years that the Rooney Rule was enforced, they already knew the person they were going to hire, usually a white male. They would have their list of likely candidates to come in and interview.

What this does is more than the smoking gun, is actually the bullet that Flores came up with. It really begins to put meat on the bone. It's so hard to prove racism. The Giants, I think this may be their third or fourth white head coach in a row. If you go back to the clips, every year is the same thing, "Best candidate," "This is going to be a game-changer." "This is a guy that--"

Then a year later, two years later, they fire him. This has been the frustration of this process for those of us who have covered this for decades, man. The other thing I'll say, Brian, you started the show talking about the percentage of Black players, the 70% of the league is Black players, but the problem is that number means absolutely nothing if that 70% remains quiet, it remains mute, and that they don't step up.

That's the problem that we've had, whether it was Colin Kaepernick kneeling, or now this, that 70% of Black players, or even the 3% of star Black players have remained deaf and dumb. They have not stepped up, they've not been encouraged to step up by DeMaurice Smith, who runs the Players Association, to let the ownership know that, man, this is an insult to all of us because a lot of these guys do want to coach, they do want to be involved in coaching and the front office.

What these owners are basically telling the Black players is that "Listen, you guys, tote that barge, lift that bail, you run and you jump, will run the league." I think that the significance of this suit is that these guys, these multi-billionaires are only going to do things when they're forced to do things or when they're embarrassed. I think right now, the fact that this is in a court, and we're going into the Super Bowl is more of an embarrassment. We'll see how they push back.

Brian Lehrer: Certainly an interesting moment for competing storylines with the Super Bowl just a week a few days away. Listeners, we can take some phone calls for our guest William Rhoden these days with The Undefeated. What do you think of Brian Flores' lawsuit against the NFL? 212-433-WNYC, or maybe you're Black or another person of color and have had to sit through sham interviews where the employer was fulfilling some interview quota, like the Rooney rule in the NFL without having any intention of really taking you seriously. You can tell us about your story in or out of football. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

Definitely interested to hear from people in sports, doesn't have to be professional football. I realize that's a small class, but maybe in other kinds of coaching or sport administration if you have a story like that to tell. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Again, a heads up to everybody, we do expect to be cutting away to hear President Biden live talking about last night's counter-terrorism operation that they say took out the leader of the Islamic State in Syria. We don't know exactly when that is going to come.

Bill, let's talk more about the Rooney Rule and this notion of a sham interview. That term 'sham interview' is used in Flores' lawsuit a number of times, and the Bill Belichick text that we just talked about seems to be pretty strong evidence that the Giants had already selected who their new head coach was going to be before they even interviewed Brian Flores under the Rooney Rule requirement, but what about the rule itself? 19 years ago, when it went into effect, there were three Black head coaches. Today, one Black head coach. Did the Rooney Rule prove ineffective? Duh, but worse, did it prove a negative in any way?

William Rhoden: Well, I don't think it was a negative. Black players have had a very long and complicated history with the National Football League. The league excluded Black players from the mid-30s until 1946, when the Los Angeles Rams, under pressure, by the way, hired two Black players, Kenny Washington, and Woody Strode. That's the only way that the Rams who moved from Cleveland to Los Angeles were going to be permitted to play in the Memorial Coliseum which, municipally, it was owned by the city.

There's been this long, long, long meandering thing. The Rooney Rule was just one more step in that evolution because before that, man, it was like a desert. [chuckles] There was no way they were going to hire Black people. At least the Rooney Rule was a step to at least put in some kind of structure that said that, "At least you owners have to at least interview a Black candidate, a minority candidate, rather." That was fine. It was revolutionary at the time, and of course, these people immediately said, "Well, that's okay, cool. We'll do it."

They immediately went about circumventing the rule by saying, "Okay, here are likely suspects. We'll interview some Black folks. They're not going to get the job, but we'll interview them because that's what the rule says." The problem, Brian, that you've dealt with probably most of your career when you deal with these issues is that, unfortunately, you can't legislate people's hearts. You could pass all kinds of rules, but you can't legislate in people's hearts that they do the right thing.

Brian Lehrer: Hearts or biased perceptions? Because there are probably a lot of people who think, "Well, I have no interest in locking out Black people from important jobs just because they're Black. I don't have hate in my heart, but they don't see the qualified Black people as qualified as the qualified white people."

William Rhoden: Yes, precisely, and I think that sports is the perfect metaphor for this, is that we see you as running backs, and we see you as wide receivers and defensive players, and making these great physical plays. We do not see you as the face of our corporation. Now, the Giants, they hired Jerry Reese as a general manager, and Jerry Reese was part of building two Superbowl winning teams for the Giants, but again, it's remarkable that his name has not been mentioned. The Giants did do that, but I think you're right. We see you as players. We don't see you as the face of our corporation.

Brian Lehrer: I see from my television monitor that we may be interrupted by the President any second, though it's hard to tell exactly. Let me jump ahead to a certain point in the story, and just ask you why you think it's different in the NBA where 12 of the 30 head coaches are Black.

William Rhoden: Well, I think even in the NBA, Brian, to be honest with you, the NBA is almost 80% of Black players. I think if things were really fair, the NBA would probably have 20 Black coaches if things were fair. I think the perception is that the NBA is more enlightened. I would question that. I think if you would walk through the halls of most NBA teams, and through NBA headquarters, and you looked at the legal department, the marketing department, all the departments, I think you'd still be stunned to find out that is still a largely white-run league.

The perception of the NBA is that it's better, but I think that if the NBA were really, really better, you'd have almost three times as many Black folks in the executive suite, and you'd have probably about 10 or 11 or more Black head coaches. I see what you're saying, but it's the perception that the NBA is further ahead, but I think at the end of the day, man, I think that both of these leagues are still predominantly white-run, and it's a whole thing of Black labor, white wealth. I think that's what we're up against, but if you're going to compare the NBA with the NFL, yes. I think the NBA seems like it's light years ahead, but that's because the bar is so low.

Brian Lehrer: Let me take a phone call for you. Rafael in Franklin Square on Long Island, you're on WNYC with Bill Rhoden from The Undefeated. Hi, Rafael.

Rafael: Oh, hi. Thank you. I think one of the things that's really interesting about this whole situation is that there's a big movement in other areas of society about equality of opportunity. Just give people an opportunity, and that's all people really need, but this is clearly, to me, an example of just giving an opportunity isn't quite enough. It just gives them an opportunity to experience more racism. When you have structures in place that absolve individuals of their choices, if the structure itself is going to allow for the opportunity to experience racism, it's the structure that needs to change, which is why this lawsuit hopefully can do some damage.

Brian Lehrer: What kind of structure, Rafael, do you have in mind? How can they revise the structure?

Rafael: I think it's got to be, there's so few Black quarterback coaches, there's so few Black or minority special teams' coaches, and that's where the pool of new coaches comes from. The relationships that are built while they're under the head coaching level, that's, hopefully, what can help allow more people to rise to these more leadership positions. I think that tells you that there's an entire culture of dismissing these candidates from way earlier on, and if that structure is addressed, maybe some changes can be made.

Brian Lehrer: Rafael, thank you very much, Jason in the Bronx, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jason.

Jason: Hi. How are you?

Brian Lehrer: Good.

Jason: Yes, if you look at people like Patrick Mahomes, there's been tremendous change in the NFL over the years. When I was a kid growing up, every quarterback was white, and every coach was white, and most of the players were white. The NFL had celebrated the rising up of tremendous talent. I don't think they're looking at race specifically, they want to win. They want to make money. They're a billion-dollar company.

I think that we have to live in a world where people are judged by, not the color of their skin, but the content of their character, and in the case of the New York Giants, the coach that was hired was the most sought-after coach. He was hired because he was coming from the Bills who were a tremendous success story over the years, he wasn't hired because he was white. I think racism can work in both ways, and you have to hire people that are the most qualified, and you can't just hand out tokens to people because of their race. If that means Blacks or whites are hired, whatever it ends up being, we need to celebrate success and live in a world of meritocracy.

Bill Lehrer: Well, go ahead, Bill. You want to engage with Jason?

William Rhoden: With all due respect, I think that's nonsense. I think that just rationalizes Giant's own racism. They said every time they've hired a white coach, the same thing, this is the most desired guy. He's a defensive genius, or he's an offensive genius, or he's whatever it is we need to not hire a Black person. I think that you could say that, and you could rationalize that, but what you're doing, and what the NFL does is that they're arguing for their own limitations.

The caller is exactly right, Brian. In 1946, Black players were kept out of the National Football League. There was a gentlemen's agreement that kept them out. The NFL would look back and say, "Jesus, the addition of Black players has been why this league is so successful. The addition of Black quarterbacks has been why this league is so entertaining." I think there will probably come a time, maybe 30 years from now, when there'll be like maybe 15 Black head coaches and executives and say, "Man, if we would have just done this 20 years ago, we would have been in a much better place." You're right, and he can say the same thing about this nation. It's a slow, painful evolution, but you got to get out of your way. You got to put away this racism. Well, my point to the caller, is that you cannot justify racism, and that's what you're doing.

Brian Lehrer: We have the two-minute warning now. Actually now, it's just probably about a minute before President Biden starts his appearance with respect to the counterterrorism strike in Syria. Just take a few seconds, Bill, and tell us if there's anything in particular that can be done to fix the Rooney Rule, or to the first caller's point, make it even more structurally difficult to wind up with this imbalance.

William Rhoden: Yes, Brian. Just briefly, I think that this suit is the first major step in changing and altering the Rooney Rule. I think the suit also is going to force the NFL's hand because billionaires will only move when they have to move. I think that's why this suit is very important, but it's just the first step. The second step will be Black players actually raising their voices in support of Brian Flores and his suit.

Brian Lehrer: We should say that the NFL denies everything through their lawyer. Do you think this is going to wind up in court? If you give me about a 10-second answer, or are they going to settle, which might be bad, it might make it go way too quickly?

William Rhoden: No. I think that, unlike Colin Kaepernick who did settle, I think Flores wants this brawl to be out in public, and I hope that's where it stays. We need a big public Super Bowl-like brawl about racism in the NFL. I don't think this is going to be settled at all.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Bill Rhoden from The Undefeated. Thank you.

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