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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. As we begin to head towards the new year, some of us might be thinking about setting some goals, whether we keep them or not, many people make new year's resolutions. Now we'll start a short pre-new year series on books that might help with some of that resolve. You can say they fall into the self-help genre, but they're not just any self-help books. We've selected some of the most iconic bestselling books that have transcended the category and become a part of the culture and the way we talk about ourselves. It seemed to be getting revived on social media and elsewhere for a new generation.

Later in the set, for example, we'll have Julia Cameron who wrote the classic, The Artist's Way. Right now, we take a closer read of Attached: The New Science of Adult Attachment, and How It Can Help You Find and Keep-Love. Now, this was published all the way back in December, 2010, but the book has been translated into 20 languages since then and continues to be in Amazon's top 200 books. According to the New York Times, it is the rare book that sells an increasing number of copies year-to-year since its release from selling 62,000 hard copies in 2019, over 82,000 copies in 2020 to 102,300 copies as of October of this year. Joining me now to discusses his book and why it continues to be so popular for people who are dating is the co-author of Attached, Dr. Amir Levine, MD, adult, child, and adolescent psychiatrist and neuroscientist conducting neuroscience research at Columbia University. Dr. Levine, thanks so much for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Dr. Amir Levine: Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we bet there are a lot of fans of this book out there. You want to call in and share what you learn from Attached, and how you've applied it to your romantic relationships, or if you have any questions for Dr. Amir Levine, but never had him over for dinner after you read the book, tweet @brianlehrer, or give us a call now at 212-433-WNYC 212-433-9692. I see the idea for this book came from your time at the therapeutic nursery at Columbia, where you were studying children's bonds with their caregivers. What was the moment in which you realized that adults could benefit from this research too?

Dr. Amir Levine: It was one of the most really interesting rotation that I had to do. It was so powerful, the therapy between the mothers and the child, and usually, we treated mothers with post-traumatic stress disorders, which really kept them made it difficult for them to interact securely with their children. We taught them and changed some of the dynamics between the child and the parent and help them become more secure. It was so powerful and it was so interesting that it made gives something that you hardly ever do in those rotations.

In the beginning you get this really long reading list and no one has time to read it all, but I went and I read all of it. In it, I found that there's another whole other field of adult attachment and that adults also have different attachment styles and interact in close relationships in accordance to some of these principles. At the time, I went through my own breakup and I really experienced it as a revelation. It was so eye-opening. It really helped me understand in a very different way, all of the different dynamics that went down in that relationship and really helped me overcome some of the difficulties and some of the pain that I experienced during that breakup.

Brian Lehrer: The building blocks here are that just like researchers see in children, adults have three attachment styles that you identify. I'm sure there are many more and you did this to make it relatable. It's a big three. According to the book, they are anxious, avoidant, and secure. Let's take each of them briefly. Anxious attachment. How would someone know if they fall into that category and how does it generally affect their relationships?

Dr. Amir Levine: I think it's helpful to initially you have to understand that it all has to do with how much we crave intimacy and closeness. That's on one hand, but then on the other hand, how much do we have, how sensitive we are to potential threat in the relationship. In a way, if you think about actually relationships, it's one of the main ways for us to feel safe in the world. People think, "Oh, if I have a lot of money in the bank, or if I have a lot of real estate or different monetary issues will make us feel safer." For emotional brain or social brain, all those things didn't exist when the brain evolve. The one thing that makes us really feel safest is our relationship.

If we love intimacy and closeness, but we don't have a very sensitive radar, we don't really notice a lot of potential threats in relationships or dangers. That means that we have a secure attachment style. If we really love closeness, but we are very sensitive. We have a very sensitive radar and we can really identify threats a mile away. Sometimes we're right. Sometimes we're not exactly right, but often time we are, then that makes us have more of an anxious attachment style or working model. Some people call it that, that means that we're just more. When I talk about threat in a relationship is anything that stands in the way of the availability of your partner. Anything that cuts the connection that you perceive connection.

The last one is the avoidant attachment style. By the way, there's also a fourth one, a mix between anxious and avoidant. It's more rare and we can talk about that if we have time, but the avoidant attachment style, it's more when people, they want to also attach, because we're all attachment is a basic need, just as much as food and water. We want to attach, but they don't feel comfortable with too much closeness. When they become close to the other person, they use what we call deactivating strategies, all sorts of little ways to create more distance in their relationship. That's the avoidant attachment style.

Brian Lehrer: You use anecdotes, and I'm going to ask you to tell us one interesting story to discuss different types of attachments. In one of them, you have an anxious attachment person in a relationship with an avoidant attachment person. Your friend, Tamara, starts dating a guy named Greg who initially promises Tamara that he wants to spend a lot of time with her, but that quickly doesn't become the case. She becomes all anxious and we can read this and say, God, that Greg is a pretty big jerk, but according to the book, he's actually avoidant. You want to talk about that interaction?

Dr. Amir Levine: Yes. I think part of what also helped me and I think also helping other people in understanding because this whole book invites you to learn a whole new terminology about relationships, a science-based terminology. Instead of just saying a jerk, it gives you a much more specific and precise idea about why people behave the way they behave. Also gives you an opportunity to intervene differently, to potentially make things better. For example, with Tamara and Greg, Tamara had an anxious working model or an anxious attachment style, and he was avoidant. T

he problem for people that are avoidant is once there's too much closeness, it scares them. They feel uncomfortable and they withdraw. As I told you before, that the withdrawal, that feeling that the person may not be as available, that triggers what we call it's like a danger sign. It's like your radar system gets triggered. Then if you try to reach out and reinstate that availability through many different means. You get activated, basically, you say there's specific lingo that along with it. You get activated, and then you engage in protest behavior. You call more, you do all sorts of things.

We see it a lot in children. It's much easier to see the attachment behavior with children. They will do anything to get the mothers or the father's attention. It's very similar here. You're just going to engage in behavior trying to get their attention, but for someone avoidant, it's exactly you're playing on their biggest fear. Like, "Oh my God, this person is now encroaching on my independence." Exactly.

Brian Lehrer: You just used one of the terms from the book, protest behavior, where somebody calling somebody there in a relationship can be called protest behavior. Can you explain that a little more?

Dr. Amir Levine: Yes. Protest behavior is any behavior that will reinstate the availability of your partner. That's why I say it's so easy to look and see it and kids, what happens if a child doesn't get their father's or mother's attention, they will start yelling, screaming, shrieking, maybe they'll try something nice, give them a present, anything in their repertoire to get the attention of the other person. Protest behavior is a result of an activation, but in truth, as I told you, it's like a surveillance system in our brain that knows where all of our loved ones are.

Usually, when I give talks, I do this, I decide, which I don't really like doing because it's a little bit unsettling, but I'm going to tell you. Even all of us now have in our brain, we know how an idea of where our loved ones are, and that they're pretty much okay, hopefully. If they're not, we know where they are and why they're not okay. If I were to tell you now that where your loved ones are, there was a terrible earthquake, or a terrorist attack, or something horrible, it will be hard for you to continue this interview. You'll really want to just stop everything and make sure that they're okay.

We have that thing in the background all the time, all of us. It's just that for people with an anxious working model, their radar trip, it's much more quickly, more easily.

Brian Lehrer: That's something strong. Listeners, my guest, and who has a question for Dr. Amir Levine, co-author of the book Attached: The New Science of Adult Attachment and How It Can Help You Find and Keep Love, which remarkably is selling more and more copies as it closes in on its 11th year in print. It's become a TikTok sensation. We'll talk about that in a minute. Who's read it and has a question? Who hasn't read it and has a question just based on what you've been hearing? 212 433 WNYC 433 9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer. Lauren, in Brooklyn. You're on WNYC with Dr. Amir Levine. Hi, Lauren.

Lauren: Hey, Brian. I'm a big fan. I actually mention you on my dating profile, my band and it gets a lot of attention from other Brian Lehrer fans.

Brian Lehrer: Wow. I would love to--

Lauren: Anyway, Dr. Levine, I've read your book. I'm often recommending it to friends. One thing that comes up with young women and men and other identifying people that I am friends with, and in the dating world is the awkward dance of text messaging. I find that a lot of the attachment styles very applicable to some of the complaints that people have about the type of communication that happens over text messaging. I'm just wondering what your opinion is on this modern way of communicating and dating and getting to know someone and how the attachment styles play into it.

Dr. Amir Levine: I think that's a great question. The way that I see it if you think about that surveillance system, we all have, basically, it's called an attachment system. We create a baseline. We all have different baselines with different people. There are people that we text each day, they're people that will text us once a week. Once that baseline is established, if they sway, if they do something different, or let's say all of a sudden, they stopped texting us, they're only texting us once a week after they've texted us each day, that that will sound the alarm.

In the beginning of dating, there's no baseline established. Part of what I teach my patients in treatment is to try to very early on establish a baseline that they feel comfortable with and see if their partner in dating is able to listen to their needs and how to follow suit, and see if they can get along because that's a very early way to test if it's a good match, for example. We can actually use texting as a way to sift and really try to ascertain whether the person that you're dating is actually clear a good match or not.

Brian Lehrer: Lauren, I hope that that's helpful. If you're mentioning this show in your profile, no wonder you can't get a date. No, I'm kidding.

Lauren: I get plenty of dates, especially from Brian Lehrer fans.

Brian Lehrer: That's great. I'll have to plant some malware in your phone and hear what you're all saying about me. Lauren, thank you very, very much. Anna in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with Dr. Levine. Hi, Anna.

Anna: Hi, I'm so excited to finally be talking to you. My question is, in terms of my dating experience, and I guess maybe specifically to hetero dating a lot of my friends it just seems like in general men have more of an avoidant attachment than women. I'm just curious as to if there's any insight into that or if that's just my perception maybe?

Brian Lehrer: Dr. Levine, this would go with the classic stereotype that may even be true that women see commitment much more and men avoid commitment much more.

Dr. Amir Levine: Actually, I think it's a little bit of a-- The answer has a few levels. One is that the truth of the matter is, is that I think the majority of people are actually secure both men and women and I find that very, very comforting and promising because there's a lot of people out there that are very capable of being in really, really good relationships.

In the process of writing the book back then, and now I'm writing another book about the secures of this world and how you can become more secure. I've really learned to fall in love with all the secures in this world because they really have an innate talent of being really good in a relationship.

By the way, it's not only in humans, it's in other animals too. There is this tendency of some individuals within a species of excelling in relationships. That's one thing. The other thing is it's true that there are many men that have an avoidant attachment style, but there are also men that have anxious attachment style. In general, one of the challenges of dating is that there tends to be a high-- Avoidants tend to recirculate back into the dating world much faster than I think secures and anxious. I'll tell you why.

What happens is, when people are secure, they often find themselves very easily and very quickly in relationships, and they tend to stay in those relationships for a long time. For people that are anxious, they sometimes have more tumultuous relationships, especially that combination between anxious and avoidant can be tumultuous. Once they break up with someone, they still tend to think about them a long time, they miss them, they blame themselves. Oftentimes, it takes them a long, long time to be able to get back into dating and be able to put the other person behind them.

For people who are avoidant, it's really remarkable. I remember I had one. They really circulate very quickly back into the dating pool. I remember one avoidant patient. He was like-- He was a man, actually, but I've encountered many of the women who I remember that juxtaposition between him and another patient who couldn't stop thinking about the other person that they've broken up with.

This person, they broke up a week earlier. He said, "Well--" I asked him, "Do you think about this person that you broke up with?" He said, "Well, no, I was thinking about them two days, a week later, because I was going on another date and I got thinking, "Should I really wear this shirt that he gave me as a present?" It's just that's the level of how much they think about the other person. They can put people behind them rather quickly.

Brian Lehrer: Can people change their attachment style? If we're talking about this book, and you're Ph.D. psychiatry, or what an MD psychiatrist, but if we're talking about this in the context of a self-help genre, can people use an understanding of their attachment styles that they might get from your book to change it to something that might be more productive for themselves?

Dr. Amir Levine: Absolutely, yes. That's why actually, I really also love this whole area of research and work in which we transform into clinical work because people change their attachment styles all the time. There was a study that came out in 2020, that showed that just knowing about the attachment styles, the secure attachment styles, helps people become more secure. There's something that's called secure priming. You can become more secure if you can do certain secure priming. A lot of the work that I've done since the book came out, is figuring out a way of how people can become more secure, and using different methods, and helping people become more secure.

Brian Lehrer: One more caller in here before we run out of time. Alexis in Redbank, you're on WNYC. Hi, Alexis, and sorry to say we have about 30 seconds for you.

Alexis: Okie Dokie. I learned about attachment theory in graduate school. I believe it was first talked about with Bowlby and Ainsworth. The study was with moms walking out of a room and they would see how the child reacted. If the child cried, if the child continued to play with toys, and then how the child reacted to the mom. I poo-pooed it. I went on to subsequently get divorced. Now I'm single again and it is amazing how important this theory has become in realizing who I am, and who a good mate will be. I do find that I think I move between anxious and avoidant depending upon who the person in my life is but it is really the first step in understanding yourself and knowing who to choose so that you can have a happy future. Even in analyzing why I became divorced, so interesting.

Brian Lehrer: So interesting Alexis, thank you. You can use that as a blurb for the next edition of your book, Dr. Levine. In our last minute, in addition to the higher book sales year over year since it came out in 2010, it's a hit on Tik Tok. Currently the stats I'm seeing there are over 214 million views attributed to hashtag attachment style, and 75 million views attributed to hashtag attachment theory. Is it different to have people come to you through social media than through bookstores, and we have 30 seconds.

Dr. Amir Levine: I think the part of the why becomes such a hit I've been thinking about that because to me it's a little bit surprising, but I think more so than it's helpful, I think about it more as a science helpful. I'm a scientist, not just a physician, and to me, that's how I experienced it and I'm glad we were able to convey it in the book. It's like all the sudden feeling why am I having such a hard jumping? Why am I having such a hard walking and then all of a sudden someone tells me well, there's gravity, and you understand, oh, okay so that's why and now I can learn to live with it.

Brian Lehrer: That has to be the last word from Dr. Amir Levine, whose book Attached: The New Science of Adult Attachment and How It Can Help You Find - and Keep - Love, just keep selling and selling. Thanks so much.

Dr. Amir Levine: Thank you.

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