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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now we'll continue our short pre-New Year series on books that might help with some of that New Year's resolve. You can say they fall into the self-help genre, but not just any self-help book; some that really transcend that genre. We've selected some of the most iconic best-selling books that have transcended the category and become part of the culture and the way we talk about ourselves, and that seems to be getting revived on social media and elsewhere for a new generation.

Right now we take a new read of The Artist's Way: A Spiritual Path to Higher Creativity. Released at first in 1992, the book makes a bold claim that anyone can be an artist, and if you follow the book's 12-week creativity course you can be one too. As of 2019, the book had sold over 5 million copies and had been translated into 40 languages. Among the millions of readers are some celebrity disciples, you might call them. Elizabeth Gilbert, the author of Eat, Pray, Love, has said that her book was a result of doing The Artist's Way. The book gives you things to do concrete things to do. Singer-songwriter Alicia Keys, Pete Townshend from the Who, have both credited the book as an inspiration.

Joining us now to discuss our iconic book, including why it's so popular today, and to take some of your calls, is Julia Cameron. She is the best-selling author of more than 40 books, fiction and nonfiction. A poet, songwriter, filmmaker, playwright, and who some people refer to as the godmother or high priestess of creativity. Julia, thanks so much for coming on today. Welcome to WNYC.

Julia Cameron: Well, it's good to be here. Good to talk to you again Brian.

Brian Lehrer: We bet there are some people out there who have done The Artist's Way. You want to call in and share what your experience was like or what you learned from the book, or if there are any questions you have for Julia Cameron, tweet @BrianLehrer or give us a call at 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Julia, for the uninitiated, do you want to start by explaining how the book works because it's kind of like a workbook. One chapter is meant to be read and acted on each week. You want to talk briefly about the arc of the book?

Julia Cameron: I think the book aims at causing what I would call a spiritual awakening, although we don't use that terminology very often. It takes people a step at a time through their past history, into their present history, and into the future of what they dream of doing. Well, I get told, "Julia, your book changed my life." [chuckles That's always the same sentence.

Brian Lehrer: It is the best thing that you could be told, assuming it changed people's lives for the better. Let me give people a couple of examples. At the end of each chapter you have 10 tasks. A sample of the tasks in Chapter 3. "Call a friend who treats you like you are a really good and bright person who can accomplish things, and list five people you wish you had met who are dead." Maybe talk about those or any other example as how that sparks creativity?

Julia Cameron: Well, I think it begins by asking the right questions. When we ask ourselves, "Who treats me like I'm bright and worthwhile and worthy?" we find that we can sort our friends into several categories, and that it takes a bit of doing to figure out precisely who would be the supportive person. A lot of times we have somebody on our list who actually undercuts us. I think that we find ourselves going to the wrong people for support.

Brian Lehrer: Surround yourself with those who affirm you.

Julia Cameron: Yes. Stick with those who love you.

Brian Lehrer: Nina in Brooklyn, I think, is one of the people who's going to say that line to you that you say you're here a lot. Nina, you're on WNYC with Julia Cameron, author of The Artist's Way. Hi.

Nina: Hi. I love the show, and first time, long time.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you.

Nina: I do feel like the book changed my life. I came to it pretty early on. I think it's maybe the only "self-help book" I've ever bought, but I did go through the program and I did the Morning Pages, which took me a long time because I write small. I did them every day, and at the end of that, I realized that if I could write every day then I could paint every day.

Julia Cameron: Aha.

Nina: I've had the daily painting practice for about 30 years now in watercolor, and I often cite that it is the cornerstone of my studio practice. It really changed my life to have that, so thank you.

Julia Cameron: You're very welcome. I think when people say "Your book changed my life," I respond "Oh, you changed your life."

Nina: [chuckles] That's beautiful.

Brian Lehrer: Nina, thank you very much. That exercise that she referred to, the one called, I think, Morning Pages, and you ask readers to write up three pages first thing in the morning by hand. I don't know if that one survives the generational shift to thumbing on our phones and things like that. What's the exercise and how did you come to invent it? Does it apply in a different way with today's technology?

Julia Cameron: You have several questions. What is the exercise is three pages of longhand morning writing that you do first thing on awakening. You go to the page and you say, "This is how I feel. This is what I want. This is what I don't want." It's as if you're sending a sort of telegram to the universe stating your precise position. What I find is that Morning Pages train people to take risks. They will suggest, for example, that you paint every day, and you'll think, "Oh, I can't do that." Then they'll suggest it again a week later and you'll think, "I don't think I can do that." Then finally, when they suggest it a third time, just to hush them up you say, "Oh all right, I'll try." It's the trying that leads to triumph.

We become much larger than we think we are, and that expanded sense of self brings with it a sense that the universe is a benevolent place. What I have found is that writing by hand is a challenge for everyone and not particularly a challenge for young people. Instead, it's something that is enticing.

Brian Lehrer: And something that it sounds like is meant to be difficult. If you can accomplish that, assuming after writing three pages longhand you have any time to do anything but your day job, you've climbed one mountain so you could climb another one, is where I think you were going with that?

Julia Cameron: I think when we say I'm going to work on my creativity, we live in a childliness culture and we have a strong work ethic. When I say "I have a tool for you," it's a nightmare. You have to wake up 45 minutes early, you have to go to the page and write, and people will say, "Oh, I get it. Work." People are quite willing to work on their creativity. There's a second tool which meets with more resistance, and it's called an Artist's Date. It's a once-a-week solo expedition to do something fun. People will immediately find themselves feeling skeptical.

From the front of the room, they'll be crossing their arms across their chest, tilting their heads to one side and saying, "I don't see what fun has to do with working on our creativity." We have an expression "the play of ideas" but we don't realize that it's actually a prescription play and you will have ideas.

Brain Lehrer: I love that one, the Artist's Date. Josephine in Miami, you're on WNYC with Julia Cameron, author of The Artist's Way. Hi, Josephine.

Josephine: Hello, Brian. Hello, Julia. Oh, each one of your books, Julia, is like a doctor visit to my soul, but particularly with The Artist's Way, I have done it twice; the 12-week program of the first book. Six years ago, with all the practices and the Morning Pages, I was open to flashes of creativity. It fell out of nowhere, and I got the flash of my one-woman show, the title Between Coconuts and Concrete six years ago. Other ideas came up with music and acting, but that title just stayed there but not much work was put into it.

I did it again now six years apart this year. You have many chapters about synchronicity. Just basically things coming together and it feels effortless because, again, the universe is a benevolent place for creativity. I started talking about this one-woman show title again out loud during these 12 weeks. All of a sudden synchronicity happens and I have found a director, a theater, a timeline in terms of doing it in New York City and in Miami. It's just a beautiful thing to do and trust and surrender that creativity, and the universe is here working for you, so thank you so much.

Brain Lehrer: That's beautiful. Coconuts and Concrete sounds like a great Miami title.

Josephine: [laughs] Concrete is New York and coconuts is Miami, but here we are with both [crosstalk].

Brain Lehrer: There you go. Josephine, thank you so much. Chris in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Chris.

Chris: Hey. Thank you for putting me on. I just want to say too over the last 20 years I've done The Artist's Way. I think this is my fifth time, and I'm in page 147. I just want to say that the Morning Pages has definitely connected me to that synchronicity that the last caller talked about. The pie charts [chuckles] and the Artist's Date, they all just, I think, bring you in to this place that allows you to define yourself and give yourself this affirmation that you're worth it. The synchronicity just is amazing. The things start to happen when you pay attention, and I just can't express my thanks to The Artist's Way. It's amazing.

Julia Cameron: Oh, you're very welcome.

Brain Lehrer: You want to give us one example of an Artist's Date you went on?

Chris: Well, the first one I went on was--

Brian Lehrer: Chris, you.

Chris: Oh yes, Chris. Just to one of the art shows at the Madison sculpture garden there in Madison Square Park. It just was something that I felt kind of silly about. I was like, "I'm going on my first Artist's Date." It just felt so, I guess, reassuring and self-affirming that my own creativity is as important as what I'm seeing, and that I'm part of it. That my higher power basically gave me this ability to create and I should use it, and I have a purpose to use it.

Brain Lehrer: Chris, thank you. Thank you so much. Let's do one more before we get some closing thoughts from Julia. Margaret in Brooklyn, who says she started Morning Pages at the start of the pandemic. Margaret, you're on WNYC. Hi.

Margaret: Hi. Great to be here, and thank you so much for this book. By the way, I'm kind of doing an Artist's Date this morning, so I ditched my work for the day and I'm just sitting in my studio creating and feels great. One of the things that I was amazed about was, for me, it's a 12-week program but the Morning Pages were so rich. I would spend weeks on each chapter because it just was so rich and so fulfilling. For me, the thing it did most was just really center me. It was sort of like self-therapy. I've had a lot of therapy and it just really made me feel super centered and super focused on what I wanted and what I need in my life. I just want to thank you for-

Brain Lehrer: That's great.

Margaret: -the book and [crosstalk].

Brian Lehrer: Filling a void in the pandemic.

Margaret: It filled a void, and I'd go on a lot of walks with friends and tell everybody about it, and I came across so many other people who were also doing it. It was amazing.

Brain Lehrer: One of the ways, Julia, that you made the pandemic palatable for more people as they were generally isolated. I'm going to sneak one more in here because Patrick in Brooklyn wants an Artist's Way pep talk from you. Patrick, you're on WNYC. Hi. Real quick though.

Patrick: I've got a new toddler. Your book changed my life eight years ago. I had a childhood dream of being a comedian. I was working as a TV producer as a shadow artist, and I finally took the leap, changed my life, changed my career. Living my dream currently, but 17-month-old child at home who does not like when I do Morning Pages.

Julia Cameron: When I invented Morning Pages I had a toddler. What I found was that I had to set an alarm to get up ahead of them. I think that a little toddler may feel competitive for your attention, so I need to say wake up early even if it's a pain, and do the pages before your toddler wakes up and says, "Dad, I want you." [chuckles]

Patrick: I'll give it a shot.

Brain Lehrer: That one's hard. How many times have I had my toddler come in and be the first thing before I'm ready to get up? Could you talk about if you see any generational differences in responses to the book? One of the reasons you keep selling and selling and selling is because it's a thing now on TikTok and other social media. That's a different generation of users who sometimes interact with the world in a different way than maybe who you wrote the book for originally in 1992. Do you see generational differences?

Julia Cameron: Actually I don't. I think that we have what I want to call a thwarting culture; a culture that doesn't value artistry. I think there's a need and a hunger for tools that say, as one of the callers, Josephine, said, "You are worthy." I think the issues remain the same. When I wrote the book I thought I was writing it for myself and 10 friends, and It turns out that it has spoken to millions. I think it's because we have a basic hunger to be validated.

Brain Lehrer: The Artist's Way, by the way, has - we looked it up - 238,000 views on TikTok, and close to 200,000 posts on Instagram. According to The New York Times, the book sold four million copies in 2019, it's now more than five million, so you definitely have a new generation of readers out there; at least a million strong it seems like. Give us one more. We just have 30 seconds, but one of The Artist's Way exercises is what you call reading deprivation, which is exactly what it sounds like, but how does it help you be creative to not read?

Julia Cameron: One of the things that I found is that we're addicted to other people's ideas, and we get them largely through reading. What it does in effect is distance us from our own creativity and our own ideas. When I say "For a week I want you to not read" people panic because it is an act of addiction to have a certain number of words every day. When we start going without other people's words, what happens is our own words begin to come to the fore.

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Brain Lehrer: Julia Cameron's classic 1992 book The Artist's Way: A Spiritual Path to Higher Creativity, still so relevant today. Thank you so much for joining us. You can hear how inspired people are by you.

Julia Cameron: Well, thank you.

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